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nomotog wrote:

Oh and iproxtaco I PMed my response to you. I didn't want to help drag this thread off topic any more then I already have.

I see it now, too busy watching Scotland hammer an opponent at Rugby Union for once whilst modeling some more Word Bearers whilst preparing all the stuff I've saved up over the last few years to start a Blog on Dakka.

You have to take into consideration a titan's loadout.

The only titan references I can give you are the weapons for the Emperor Titan

It has 6 carapace mounted weapons
Laser Blaster
Plasma Destructor
Inferno Gun
Vulcan Mega Bolter
Volcano Cannon
Melta Cannon(not the crappy Banewolf one)

Range-120
Str-10
AP-1
Type-Ordinance 1,large blast,melta*

*,Against vehicles under the central hole,this has Str 10+3D6 Armour pen.Against vehicles under the template but not the hole,it has Str 10+2D6 armour pen.

Apocalypse Missile Launcher
Vortex Missile

All of these have a Minimum range of 36'',except the Vortex,which has a Minimum range of 48''


It also has 2 arm mounted weapons,

Plasma Annihilator(rapid/full)
Range-96''/120''
Str-8/10
Ap2
Type ordinance 6,7'' blast,/Ordinance 3,7'' blast

Hellstorm cannon
Range-96''
Str-9
AP3
Type-Ordinance 8,7'' Blast

Doomsday Missile Launcher
Range-36-540''
Str 8
AP 3
Type-Apocalypse barrage (10)

Vengeance cannon
Range-360''
Str-D
AP 2
Type-Heavy 1,7'' blast,Destroyer





What Tau can take this in a fight.Heck,a novel I read,it took a whole bunch of Titans firing on a point for 5 full minutes to collapse its voids.It took down many titans with it.

Who can take this on?

They could take down a Warhound quite easily,and a Warlord or Reaver with difficulty.An Emperor is almost impossible to take with many Titans,so how would the Tau take one on,along with the many smaller titans that form a Squadron.

How to take down a titan? Drive a warbike through the windshield

Yopu wouldn't get through the voids.Or the minor hull defensive weapons.Or the feet.Or the Skitarii and Servitors.In fact,don't even bother trying.

Deadshot wrote:You have to take into consideration a titan's loadout.

The only titan references I can give you are the weapons for the Emperor Titan

It has 6 carapace mounted weapons
Laser Blaster
Plasma Destructor
Inferno Gun
Vulcan Mega Bolter
Volcano Cannon
Melta Cannon(not the crappy Banewolf one)

Range-120
Str-10
AP-1
Type-Ordinance 1,large blast,melta*

*,Against vehicles under the central hole,this has Str 10+3D6 Armour pen.Against vehicles under the template but not the hole,it has Str 10+2D6 armour pen.

Apocalypse Missile Launcher
Vortex Missile

All of these have a Minimum range of 36'',except the Vortex,which has a Minimum range of 48''


It also has 2 arm mounted weapons,

Plasma Annihilator(rapid/full)
Range-96''/120''
Str-8/10
Ap2
Type ordinance 6,7'' blast,/Ordinance 3,7'' blast

Hellstorm cannon
Range-96''
Str-9
AP3
Type-Ordinance 8,7'' Blast

Doomsday Missile Launcher
Range-36-540''
Str 8
AP 3
Type-Apocalypse barrage (10)

Vengeance cannon
Range-360''
Str-D
AP 2
Type-Heavy 1,7'' blast,Destroyer





What Tau can take this in a fight.Heck,a novel I read,it took a whole bunch of Titans firing on a point for 5 full minutes to collapse its voids.It took down many titans with it.

Who can take this on?

Drop a rock on it? When you start getting at the really big stuff. (quick question, is there anything bigger then that?) The tau just can't fight them with what they have now. It's possible that they could kill one some time maybe somewhere down the rode. The tau, how they are now, don't stand a chance in a straight up fight. Killing one would be the story of a book and would involve maybe a lifetime of planing.

Void shields would protect from a rock.

The Emperor titan stands roughly 400ft high.It has feet the size of a Warhound.

Quick question.

I never actually saw the specific (fluff) specs for titans.
But I was wondering... would these giant gods of war not have anti batteries of their own? It's kind of silly to just put 2 big guns on it and call it a day.

I'd reckon warlords and Imperators would be covered in missile pods/lascannon/Auto cannon AA turrets.

That said, an attack run from a full AX10 squadron or two should reduce most things to swiss cheese.

It's not the point of that: Titans ( especially the big ones ) never go without at least several Guard Regiments or few Skitarii companies.
And there are armored companies etc...
Titans never go alone in the fight, only against other Titans.

Deadshot wrote:You have to take into consideration a titan's loadout.

The only titan references I can give you are the weapons for the Emperor Titan

It has 6 carapace mounted weapons
Laser Blaster
Plasma Destructor
Inferno Gun
Vulcan Mega Bolter
Volcano Cannon
Melta Cannon(not the crappy Banewolf one)

Range-120
Str-10
AP-1
Type-Ordinance 1,large blast,melta*

*,Against vehicles under the central hole,this has Str 10+3D6 Armour pen.Against vehicles under the template but not the hole,it has Str 10+2D6 armour pen.

Apocalypse Missile Launcher
Vortex Missile

All of these have a Minimum range of 36'',except the Vortex,which has a Minimum range of 48''


It also has 2 arm mounted weapons,

Plasma Annihilator(rapid/full)
Range-96''/120''
Str-8/10
Ap2
Type ordinance 6,7'' blast,/Ordinance 3,7'' blast

Hellstorm cannon
Range-96''
Str-9
AP3
Type-Ordinance 8,7'' Blast

Doomsday Missile Launcher
Range-36-540''
Str 8
AP 3
Type-Apocalypse barrage (10)

Vengeance cannon
Range-360''
Str-D
AP 2
Type-Heavy 1,7'' blast,Destroyer





What Tau can take this in a fight.Heck,a novel I read,it took a whole bunch of Titans firing on a point for 5 full minutes to collapse its voids.It took down many titans with it.

Who can take this on?

This is the loadout of an Emperor,the Warlord has of the Emperor's carapace weapons for arms,and 2 for shoulders.

PS-Please stop calling it an Imperator.The Impwerator is one pattern,just a close range fire support version,while the Warmonger spouts the most powerful guns,and is a whole Company of Banablades in itself.It even has guns on it's kneecaps and thighs,each easily capable of blowing a Monolith to Kingdom Come in a shot.

Soladrin wrote:Quick question.

I never actually saw the specific (fluff) specs for titans.
But I was wondering... would these giant gods of war not have anti batteries of their own? It's kind of silly to just put 2 big guns on it and call it a day.

I'd reckon warlords and Imperators would be covered in missile pods/lascannon/Auto cannon AA turrets.

That said, an attack run from a full AX10 squadron or two should reduce most things to swiss cheese.

They are offended by small weapons? Just a guess, but I understand titans can be picky.

A Ax10 squad is only two. If I have my BFG right.

Deadshot wrote:Yopu wouldn't get through the voids.Or the minor hull defensive weapons.Or the feet.Or the Skitarii and Servitors.In fact,don't even bother trying.

An Ork Warboss did that very same thing to a Warlord Titan I do believe, although I'm pretty sure that he did not mean that seriously.


The most powerful weapons against Titans that seem to be used, missiles that travel through the Warp and very close combat weapons (i.e. Titan scale weaponry) aren't used by Tau. An Imperator Titan will likely outrange Mantas and have numerous smaller weapon emplacements equipped. Alone and without support, the Tau would only be able to take one down with heavy losses since I don't see the Tau being capable of outranging an Imperator Titan. Unless they manage to secure and maintain air supremacy and knock most of the anti-air capability of the Imperial forces, I donbt they'll actually be able to take an Imperator out short of orbital bombardment (crashing Mantas or Tigersharks into it might just work).

Also, http://warhammer40k.wikia.com is not reliable.

In games,a Emperor has AV 14 front and sides,and 13 rear,9 voids and 12 SP.Unfortunatley,it can't get AV 17,as this is what it should be.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Yopu wouldn't get through the voids.Or the minor hull defensive weapons.Or the feet.Or the Skitarii and Servitors.In fact,don't even bother trying.

An Ork Warboss did that very same thing to a Warlord Titan I do believe, although I'm pretty sure that he did not mean that seriously.


The most powerful weapons against Titans that seem to be used, missiles that travel through the Warp and very close combat weapons (i.e. Titan scale weaponry) aren't used by Tau. An Imperator Titan will likely outrange Mantas and have numerous smaller weapon emplacements equipped. Alone and without support, the Tau would only be able to take one down with heavy losses since I don't see the Tau being capable of outranging an Imperator Titan. Unless they manage to secure and maintain air supremacy and knock most of the anti-air capability of the Imperial forces, I donbt they'll actually be able to take an Imperator out short of orbital bombardment (crashing Mantas or Tigersharks into it might just work).

Also, http://warhammer40k.wikia.com is not reliable.

I'd reckon it's a lot harder to outrange railguns then an Imperator.

Anyone know the effectiveness of railguns on void shields?

Btw, for the whole orbital bombardlements from the Tau, what ship based weaponry do the Tau posess anyway?

The point is: Tau can deal with Titans - but only with much resources put into it.

And taking down 1 Warhound is nothing, Titan Legion is 10x better protected then them. If they don't find out some good tactic soon ( witch much less recources involved ) they are going to get stomped if the ever encounter Titan Legion.

I'm seeing a lot of talk about the Imperium's Titans not going anywhere without an escort.

Well hey, you know what, it's not like the Tau forces wouldn't escort their titan killers.

So if the Titans came to town and the Tau decided they needed to hit them rather than fall back and the Tau decided that orbital bombardment is not the appropriate choice what you would see is a battle between Imperiaum Titans and their escorts versus Tau titan killers and their escorts.


Who wins . . . well that's decided by the things that usually do or don't win battles, but both sides have a general's chance.

Jefffar wrote:I'm seeing a lot of talk about the Imperium's Titans not going anywhere without an escort.

Well hey, you know what, it's not like the Tau forces wouldn't escort their titan killers.

First off: please stop using yellow text. It's annoying, and unnecessary.

Second off:
You're absolutely right, the Tau forces would be escorting their Titan Killers. The difference is that the Tau rely upon aircraft, and there's only so much armor you can give aircraft.
You're also reliant upon having an airbase or a ship in orbit to allow those aircraft to get into combat.

So if the Titans came to town and the Tau decided they needed to hit them rather than fall back and the Tau decided that orbital bombardment is not the appropriate choice what you would see is a battle between Imperium Titans and their escorts versus Tau titan killers and their escorts.

And your assumption again requires the Tau's titankillers to have clear skies.

If the Tau don't have clear skies, then they're sending those titankillers on suicide runs--which goes against the Tau's way of war.
And if the Tau do orbital bombardments, the only things we've seen from them that are capable of doing such bombardments are missiles, railguns, etc. Things that aren't installed in turrets and require the ship to be aligned directly on target for the most part.

Who wins . . . well that's decided by the things that usually do or don't win battles, but both sides have a general's chance.

Like if the Imperium is attacking or defending, if the Tau have airbases concealed planetside with titankillers just magically waiting in the wings, or any number of factors that are of that nature.

One way the Tau can deal with mayby even a Titan Legion is Evacuating the planet, totaly Obliderating enemy orbitals, and just leave those Titans trollin around on a empty planet. This does requier the Tau to win the Space war, but its not imposible.

Brother Coa wrote:The point is: Tau can deal with Titans - but only with much resources put into it.

And taking down 1 Warhound is nothing, Titan Legion is 10x better protected then them. If they don't find out some good tactic soon ( witch much less recources involved ) they are going to get stomped if the ever encounter Titan Legion.

I don't know that it's a lot of resources. The details of the kill keep shifting (thanks for that GW), but last I checked they didn't even lose the trigershark.

Unless you think that rail rounds are solid gold works of art or something.

Or, like in the book Mechanicum, A small group of elite warriors could get inside the titan and sabotage it. But then again, that was CSM and they are more epic

chaoslooksgood wrote:Or, like in the book Mechanicum, A small group of elite warriors could get inside the titan and sabotage it. But then again, that was CSM and they are more epic

What kind of Titan was it? The largest class has Guard units in the legs to protect from infiltration.

It was imperator, I think. They created some kind of distraction and then went in through the legs, slaughtered the Skiitari there and planted melta charges on the knee joint

To Waterstones! Mechanicus now sounds a whole lot more interesting.

Ha yes, I only bought it because I have a fascination with the Mechanicum

I apologize if the yellow text annoys others. It's something I've adapted on dark background forums (such as this) as it lets me see what I've written clearer than white/light grey text does. For that reason I will continue to use it.


Anyway, the Tau and Imperium air forces are reasonably matched in terms of quality. While the Imperium does have an overall edge in quantity, it is still possible for the Tau to get a local superiority by throwing a very large portion of their assets at the right area. A real-world example of this would be the air war over Germany in Word War II. While the US or the RAF almost never had more aircraft over Germany than Germany could put in the air, they usually had more aircraft in the spot that mattered than the Germans did and were able to push through with the mission.

The Tau are not adverse to suicide missions (in fact the Greater Good strikes me as a doctrine that encourages soldiers to volunteer for such missions), the Tau instead believe in preservation of their forces. In short, they won't waste their troops unless the gains are worth it. So how much they Tau are willing to throw into a mission to kill a Titan depends upon what priority the local commander gives the mission.

Given that a Titan, and it's accompanying forces, represents a significant Imperium investment, I think the Tau would be keen to neutralize it. Now there are several tricks for them to do this. Unless their hand was forced somehow, I suspect the Tau would rather bypass the Titan and it's escorts and look for a much more vulnerable yet still decisive target (like say the local Imperium planet to atmosphere transport resources, supply lines and similar). This would leave the Titan well out of position to influence the course of events.

If the Tau had to take out the Titan and it was well defended, a strike of Darkstar and Icefire weapons (Apocolypse Reloaded) even if not disabling the titan themselves, would considerably reduce the effectiveness of the escorting units. At that point either a concentrated airstrike or a small hit and run strike would go after the Titan and surviving escorts.

Of course the Imperium has counters to these measures (most notably mass of numbers) but how well he plays those counters and the Tau response comes down to the individual commanders on each side and the resources available at that immediate moment.

So yes, the Tau can destroy Titans and no it will not be easy for them.

I think that's a fairly reasonable post. Kind of sums up pretty much the entire argument, even if the yellow text is somewhat annoying.

Deadshot wrote:Void shields would protect from a rock.

The Emperor titan stands roughly 400ft high.It has feet the size of a Warhound.

I doubt that. Having a several km diameter piece of rock and iron dropped on you from orbit would very easily overpower the void shields and smash the thing to pieces. Remember, overloading void shields are just as big a threat to a titan as enemy weapons, fluff constantly depicts void shield generators exploding when they are forced to absorb more than they can handle, usually causing systems failures,starting fires, and killing crew.

And no, its not 400 feet tall, try 50m (~150 ft): http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/232903.page#800185

Soladrin wrote:Quick question.

I never actually saw the specific (fluff) specs for titans.
But I was wondering... would these giant gods of war not have anti batteries of their own? It's kind of silly to just put 2 big guns on it and call it a day.

I'd reckon warlords and Imperators would be covered in missile pods/lascannon/Auto cannon AA turrets.

That said, an attack run from a full AX10 squadron or two should reduce most things to swiss cheese.

They used to back in the day, but GW has slowly been retconning their sizes from being unbelievably large walking cities to slightly more reasonably sized bipedal cathedrals.

The most powerful weapons against Titans that seem to be used, missiles that travel through the Warp and very close combat weapons (i.e. Titan scale weaponry) aren't used by Tau. An Imperator Titan will likely outrange Mantas and have numerous smaller weapon emplacements equipped. Alone and without support, the Tau would only be able to take one down with heavy losses since I don't see the Tau being capable of outranging an Imperator Titan. Unless they manage to secure and maintain air supremacy and knock most of the anti-air capability of the Imperial forces, I doubt they'll actually be able to take an Imperator out short of orbital bombardment (crashing Mantas or Tigersharks into it might just work).

Considering that the fluff always depicts the railguns as outranging pretty much everything else, I doubt it. I mean for feths sake, real world railguns are estimated of being able to strike a target at up to 200km away with trajectory (over the horizon fire), and I recall reading somewhere that if they could figure out how to mount them (the full sized naval railguns) on aircraft they could theoretically be able to fire a direct shot at least that far depending on altitude, etc. As for taking air superiority, its not impossible, the Tau have done it before (in fact, it seems to be the one thing that that the Imperium really does have trouble doing when fighting against the Tau).

Please keep your titan based fanboyism to yourself and use actual logic and reasoning when trying to argue a point.

Btw, for the whole orbital bombardlements from the Tau, what ship based weaponry do the Tau posess anyway?

Pretty much enlarged versions of your ground based heavy weapons: railguns, ion cannons, and drone missiles. In BFG they can put out a fair amount of damage, but it usually takes fewer hits to destroy them.

If they don't find out some good tactic soon ( witch much less recources involved ) they are going to get stomped if the ever encounter Titan Legion.

Like the legion they fought on Dal'yth, or does Legio Thanataris not count as a real titan legion? Last I checked 7 warhounds, 6 reavers and a warlord qualifies.

You're absolutely right, the Tau forces would be escorting their Titan Killers. The difference is that the Tau rely upon aircraft, and there's only so much armor you can give aircraft.
You're also reliant upon having an airbase or a ship in orbit to allow those aircraft to get into combat.

While true, considering all the aircraft in the Tau arsenal are transatmospheric, they are capable of sustaining re-entry, so much like a Thunderhawk, they would,in theory, be less vulnerable (at least on the underside) to any purely energy/heat based weaponry. Besides that, all those vehicles are able, according to the Taros campaign, of traveling at least 2100 kilometers per hour. That is pretty fast, ~Mach 2, and that isn't necessarily top speed either (they need to be able to reach escape velocity in order to exit the atmosphere after all, whether or not they have skimmer like anti-grav drives to assist them I cannot say). Hitting a target at that speed isn't easy by any means, even before you factor in countermeasures. THAT is an aircraft's 'armor'.

And if the Tau do orbital bombardments, the only things we've seen from them that are capable of doing such bombardments are missiles, railguns, etc. Things that aren't installed in turrets and require the ship to be aligned directly on target for the most part.

So pretty much just like the Imperium...

What source are you using for this Titan LEgion that was present at Da'lyth? I've been around the block when trying to figure out what exactly was present but I've never heard a Titan Legion mentioned before this thread.

iproxtaco wrote:What source are you using for this Titan LEgion that was present at Da'lyth? I've been around the block when trying to figure out what exactly was present but I've never heard a Titan Legion mentioned before this thread.

Savage Scars by Andy Hoare.

Jefffar wrote:I apologize if the yellow text annoys others. It's something I've adapted on dark background forums (such as this) as it lets me see what I've written clearer than white/light grey text does. For that reason I will continue to use it.

Look in the upper right-hand corner of your screen. There's a "switch theme" button. Use worksafe or print friendly if it's so difficult for you. Because I for one cannot bear that bright freaking yellow.

Anyway, the Tau and Imperium air forces are reasonably matched in terms of quality. While the Imperium does have an overall edge in quantity, it is still possible for the Tau to get a local superiority by throwing a very large portion of their assets at the right area. A real-world example of this would be the air war over Germany in Word War II. While the US or the RAF almost never had more aircraft over Germany than Germany could put in the air, they usually had more aircraft in the spot that mattered than the Germans did and were able to push through with the mission.

That "real-world example" assumes that the Tau are operating on the planet.
Not every campaign is going to be Taros, where somehow they have fully established airfields that somehow are invisible to detection. I'll get more into this later.

The Tau are not adverse to suicide missions (in fact the Greater Good strikes me as a doctrine that encourages soldiers to volunteer for such missions), the Tau instead believe in preservation of their forces. In short, they won't waste their troops unless the gains are worth it. So how much they Tau are willing to throw into a mission to kill a Titan depends upon what priority the local commander gives the mission.

And what gain is there from wasting an experimental and rare aircraft on missions where it might not return from?

Given that a Titan, and its accompanying forces, represents a significant Imperium investment, I think the Tau would be keen to neutralize it.

Again, it depends on the class of Titan.
We've seen the Tau throw stupidly absurd amounts of firepower against simple Warhound Titans and some which weren't being escorted by anything.

Now there are several tricks for them to do this.

There's exactly one "trick for them to do this". It's called their titankiller aircraft.

Unless their hand was forced somehow, I suspect the Tau would rather bypass the Titan and its escorts and look for a much more vulnerable yet still decisive target (like say the local Imperium planet to atmosphere transport resources, supply lines and similar).

I'm not actually quite sure what you're saying here, beyond the point of the Tau bypassing the Titan and its escorting regiments. Are you saying they'd target the big landers that the Imperium would be using to transport resources? Because those would be so far behind the frontlines and actually be defended that it's a better idea to just go after the Titans.

This would leave the Titan well out of position to influence the course of events.

And unopposed to wreak havoc and accomplish the objectives it was assigned--which is likely to scour any and all traces of the Tau from the surface of the planet.

If the Tau had to take out the Titan and it was well defended, a strike of Darkstar and Icefire weapons (Apocolypse Reloaded) even if not disabling the titan themselves, would considerably reduce the effectiveness of the escorting units. At that point either a concentrated airstrike or a small hit and run strike would go after the Titan and surviving escorts.

So we're assuming that the Tau have somehow infiltrated a planet and established strongpoints that are somehow completely invisible to an Imperial fleet or groundforces or are defending and have these assets at their disposal, while the Imperium has nothing similar?

First targets when an Imperial fleet comes into orbit are defensive emplacements and military installations. The Tau, even with their reliance on mobility, still require those to operate.

If the Tau are relying upon ships while launching attacks, they'd likely dump their fighters out of the holds at the first chance they get to minimize the potential of ships going down with full holds. If they're attacking a relatively important Imperial world--they will be facing orbital platforms, fighter and interceptor craft, anti-aircraft defenses, system monitors, et al.

Of course the Imperium has counters to these measures (most notably mass of numbers) but how well he plays those counters and the Tau response comes down to the individual commanders on each side and the resources available at that immediate moment.

And if an Imperial Commander has access to something akin to Reavers, Warlords, or Imperators--he has a lot of resources available.
He has the Adeptus Mechanicus and their warmachines, the Inquisition will likely be present in an advisory capacity, and support from the Adeptus Astartes.

There has yet to be any kind of force where even Reaver Titans have been deployed to face the Tau.

So yes, the Tau can destroy Titans and no it will not be easy for them.

Nobody with any kind of sense is arguing that they can't "destroy Titans". The argument that is constantly presented by the Tau players, however, relies upon the Tau having superiority that they are likely not to in this kind of situation.

Every Imperial force that has come against the Tau has been relatively lightly equipped. There's been very few Baneblades, etc to face the Tau.
It goes back to the plot armor point I made earlier. The Imperial equipment that can actually deal with Tau vehicles hasn't been deployed in any significant numbers against the Tau. Why? Because it's needed elsewhere--like, say, the Eye of Terror or facing down the Hive Fleets.

Every Imperial world that the Tau has come up against has been relatively minor and with very little in the terms of defensive operations.