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Fire Warriors, who are supposedly trained from early childhood (like spartans a.k.a. the most elite fighting force in human history) are worth less individually than guardsman, when you ignore the fact that their equipment is better than that of stormtroopers. Guardsmen are inducted upon maturity (with a few exceptions i.e. Brimlock boy company), as is done today, meaning about ten years less of training, and yet Their BS is fairly low as is initiative (they would obviously cover agility training at some point in 10+ years of training) amongst other things.

They should be as good as storm troopers, since their both raised from childhood and given especially good equipment.

Obviously the game can't/won't represent almost any units correctly, but I felt this was a fairly obvious hole.

/rant

TL;DR Fire Warriors are under-rated, very much so.

I think the main factor is Age.

Tau have a typical lifespan of 40 terran years. Humans can live to be around 80-90 without Juvnat treatments, and be functional fighters for most of that time.

Guardsmen, especially veterans who have been fighting for 20+ years, will have the potential to see more combat and have more practice then a Fire Warrior who won't see nearly as much.

Warp travel, with its superior speed, can allow an individual guardsmen to see a multitude of combat arenas with various terrain types and a plethera of foes to hone his skills against. the Tau method of travel is slightly slower and combined with their short lives means that a Fire Warrior will, compared to a human, only begin to have skill comperable to an experienced human at around the time he will be a retiring Shas'el or Shas'o.


a Stormtrooper on the other hand, will have spent a greater amount of time fighting overall against more foes. You could fit an average Tau lifespan quite easily within the time a Stormtrooper is on active combat duty.


the Inititive thing is, quite simply, a physical definition. Humans are stronger and tougher then a Tau is and have faster reflexes. the strength and toughness isn't enough for a stat difference in the game, but the inititive is.

One reason GW gives is by saying that Tau eyes don't change focus as fast as a humans do. they have comperable vision, with only a slight difficulty at long distances compared to humans, but their refocusing time is much slower. as a result, a Tau could have trouble quickly adjusting to a fast approaching enemy. an individual who is trying to engage a far off foe suddenly finds himself in close combat. his eyes simply can't refocus fast enough for him to react.

the Tau way of warfare also focuses on ranged combat, while their culture says it is an uncivilized way of fighting. This is natural, seeing as Tau are evolved from plains dwelling herbivores and not any sort of Carnivore or Omnivore. I am not sure if the Tau are an omnovirous species, I would guess that they are but it is possable for them to be Herbivores. this might be why they find the Kroot practice of eating the dead so utterly revolting and not simply a little gross.

Tau fire warriors were hunters back before the Ethereals, so they were mostly carnivorous.

And physically, an average male Tau of the fire caste is physically similar to a human female in stature, though broader of shoulder.

And their eyesight at a distance is actually superior to that of humans, as they see a wider spectrum, though I concede that they do have slower pupil dilation.

And their training would actually be of comparable length to that of a storm trooper, since they sleep about 3 hours a day and would be of an age to start training earlier, around 3 years of age whereas stormtroopers (and just about everyone in the schola progenium) start at six. and the firewarriors would be of an age to begin combat at around 8-10 years (and their marksmanship would undoubtably exceed that of stormtroopers since their training would be marksmanship heavy compared to the melee and marksmanship the stormtroopers would go through.

That puts the military career of a tau FW at around thrity years, 21h a day (10-40, though I believe their lifespan is closer to 50 years, making it up to 40 years of war)

Compared to The twenty to thirty years a stormtrooper would be combat-capable (18-40/ 18-50 [but that's a stretch]) for around 16h a day.

Tau have (usually) longer military careers, and so should have better statlines than they currently do.

im2randomghgh wrote:Fire Warriors, who are supposedly trained from early childhood (like spartans a.k.a. the most elite fighting force in human history) are worth less individually than guardsman, when you ignore the fact that their equipment is better than that of stormtroopers. Guardsmen are inducted upon maturity (with a few exceptions i.e. Brimlock boy company), as is done today, meaning about ten years less of training, and yet Their BS is fairly low as is initiative (they would obviously cover agility training at some point in 10+ years of training) amongst other things.

They should be as good as storm troopers, since their both raised from childhood and given especially good equipment.

Obviously the game can't/won't represent almost any units correctly, but I felt this was a fairly obvious hole.

/rant

TL;DR Fire Warriors are under-rated, very much so.

Tau have naturally poor depth-perception, actually their eyesight kind of sucks in general if I remember right.

BS3 is is harder for a Tau to work to than a human, if I am remembering my fluff right.

It is only their pupil dilation that is inferior, they actually have superior vision in all other regards.

They can see ultra-violet/infra-red

But not the broad side of the earth caste storage unit.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And their training would actually be of comparable length to that of a storm trooper, since they sleep about 3 hours a day and would be of an age to start training earlier, around 3 years of age whereas stormtroopers (and just about everyone in the schola progenium) start at six. and the firewarriors would be of an age to begin combat at around 8-10 years (and their marksmanship would undoubtably exceed that of stormtroopers since their training would be marksmanship heavy compared to the melee and marksmanship the stormtroopers would go through.

This I agree with. Tau should have better BS then a guardsmen.

im2randomghgh wrote:

That puts the military career of a tau FW at around thrity years, 21h a day (10-40, though I believe their lifespan is closer to 50 years, making it up to 40 years of war)

Compared to The twenty to thirty years a stormtrooper would be combat-capable (18-40/ 18-50 [but that's a stretch]) for around 16h a day.

Tau have (usually) longer military careers, and so should have better statlines than they currently do.

IIRC, the Tau codex says 40 years is the average lifespan, but since my Nephew started Tau and I gave him all my Tau stuff I no longer can check this.

right now, a Human in fit condition is perfectly combat condition well into their 50s. assume induction at 16-18 years, that is at least the same amount of time a human and Tau would be combat capable. Stormtroopers could easily have access to at least mid level Juvnat treatment(Stormtroopers would be valuable soldiers and prolonging their life would probably be a good investment for the Imperium. it would be cheaper to keep an existing stormtrooper living and fighting longer then it would be to train a new one)


I would say that stormtroopers could easily do battle well into their 60s and 70s with juvnats. that is some conjecture on my part, but its logical.

Tau having such a low BS when they have no close combat capability and Fire Warriors (elite warriors trained from birth in the art of combat) having the same BS as Imperial Guardsman is one of the atrocities of the Tau Codex and hopefully be rectified when a new one comes out. It makes basically no sense from a fluff point of view and from a game point of view is one of the primary reasons Tau are so hard to play.

Tau may be better at ranged attacks then they are in CC, but does that really put them on par with Space Marines?

im2randomghgh wrote:Fire Warriors, who are supposedly trained from early childhood (like spartans a.k.a. the most elite fighting force in human history) are worth less individually than guardsman, when you ignore the fact that their equipment is better than that of stormtroopers. Guardsmen are inducted upon maturity (with a few exceptions i.e. Brimlock boy company), as is done today, meaning about ten years less of training, and yet Their BS is fairly low as is initiative (they would obviously cover agility training at some point in 10+ years of training) amongst other things.

They should be as good as storm troopers, since their both raised from childhood and given especially good equipment.

Obviously the game can't/won't represent almost any units correctly, but I felt this was a fairly obvious hole.

/rant

TL;DR Fire Warriors are under-rated, very much so.

Well, firstly Spartans aren't the most elite fighting force in the history of mankind. They were impressive, to be sure, but don't let 300 cloud things.

And as to the disparities between Fire Warriors and Imperial Guardsmen in Assault: No, the Tau do not cover basic agility training as part of their Fire Caste induction. The Tau view combat at close quarters as barbaric and utterly unnecessary. The Fire Caste view on it is that if a Tau Warrior has become engaged in hand to hand combat, he has done something wrong. It's a very narrow and inflexible mind-set, part and parcel of their way of war. They likely could be decent at it if they trained for it (Farsight Enclave), but the simple fact is that they don't. They make it a POINT to not prepare for it. That's why they have Kroot. Best not to waste their time.

Also, 'being raised from childhood' to do something does not necessarily mean you are super awesome at things. The quality of the training is what matters. Yes, Tau Fire Warriors are raised 'from birth' training to fight. Training to fight in the Tau way of war. Which pretty much means firing his Pulse Rifle at neat little targets on the firing range, riding around in his grav tank, and learning small-unit tactics. Storm Troopers are raised from a very young age as well, however, their training is more akin to Navy SEAL training, the entire duration of it. Endurance, thinking under stress, reaction times, 'combat' marksmanship (as opposed target range marksmanship), all of these things at nigh-insane levels, to the point where more than a few don't even survive the training. I think that this more than justifies the stat differences between Tau and Storm Troopers.

Fire Warriors are just fine.

It is their technology that sets them apart, not their training or any 'alien' level of biological coolness.

It's their points cost that is idiotic.

Next book they'll be BS3 but 8 pts.

I'm calling it now.

Even then they will only be taken because they are scoring and the points drop will be used to get more suits.

Fire Warriors basically only bring a Marker Light to the field. their pulse weapons are basically a distracting piece of shiny stuff.

Well there are few differences....
I think I can safely compare them with Cadians ( since they share similar in some manners ).

-They are both raised as kids to be solders ( difference is that Tau Fire Cast have different physiology then other Tau while Cadian is same as any other human ).
-They both have farely good equipment ( no matter what people think - Lasgun is not that weak riffle. While FW has a better equipment [ infrared, night-vision, comm unit...] but his rifle is not that better [ their plasma rifles are actually weaker than Imperial ones but more stable ] ).
-They are both fanatical warriors ( Tau fight for the Grater Good and Etherials without any doubt, Cadian fight for Mankind survival and the Emperor [ but giving Human nature and what are they fighting they are issued a moral officer ] ).
-They both use good strategies in various combat situations ( Tau FW follows 2 fighting styles one implements speed and other patience, Cadians follow Human tactics that are millennium and older and that are still working ).

Now differences:

-Combat experience ( let us face it, any Cadian would have grater combat experience then Tau FW ).
-Enemies ( while Tau main enemy thus far was Impeirum, few Ork raids, one small Tyranids fleet... Cadians faced gak and feth for over 10.000 years [ pretty much everything galaxy can throw on Mankind ] ).
-Population ( main reason why Tau FW have better equipment is because they are small in numbers and easy to equip with better things, Cadians on the other hand have millions of solder all across the galaxy and millions at home... ).


I don't think those statistics are mistake, in Fluff FW is as fragile as Guardsman. They should only have a 1 better BS - but nothing more. And keep in mind the verity of Guardsman in the galaxy, some are weak as Grots and some are strong as Space Marines ( Tanith for example ). Whiel FW are almost all the same in fighting style and equipment.

im2randomghgh wrote:Fire Warriors, who are supposedly trained from early childhood

like orks, nids, etc..
oh wait. Those start sooner. Maybe we should raise their abilities too?

im2randomghgh wrote:
(like spartans a.k.a. the most elite fighting force in human history)

im2randomghgh wrote:are worth less individually than guardsmen..

You forgot the guardswomen...

im2randomghgh wrote:Guardsmen are inducted upon maturity (with a few exceptions i.e. Brimlock boy company), as is done today, meaning about ten years less of training, and yet Their BS is fairly low as is initiative (they would obviously cover agility training at some point in 10+ years of training) amongst other things.

10 years of training vs years of combat experience. Guard doesn't sit around...
Train all you want in imaginary battles. Can't make up for real fights, where no security level prevents harm and opponents may fight dirty.
Initiative is low, obviously when indoctrinated with dogmas like greater good and a warfare style of evading close combat it does not bode well for those willing to adapt, like farsight has done. Tau will be stuck in their own ways.
Thus, allied kroot, more able bodied to react fast in hth, may stay the approach of Tau to this.

im2randomghgh wrote:They should be as good as storm troopers, since their both raised from childhood and given especially good equipment.

*Looks at the amount of stormtroopers on the tables nowadays. *
Ok, make them rare. And expensive.

im2randomghgh wrote: Fire Warriors are under-rated, very much so.

Or overrated, depending on the POV.

Basic troops shouldn't be compared to elites.

Looking forward to BS 5-6 space marines, BS 7 eldar rangers , etc...not to forget the tyranids, who could improve their BS just because they adapt and rapidly evolve so give them BS 10+

Instead of throwing such "bait the imagined haterz" thread into the background forum, maybe open the debate for a change of the d6 system to d10 or higher, something which may represent the scale of BS far better than the actual system does.

They have been avoiding making teenaged SM players cry by limiting the aliens

Eldar even though they paid 50pts for the 3 shot star cannons that could easily kill marines, got the price and shots reduced because Teeny Mariney's cried.

Tau Plasma rifles already started at 16pts and 1 S lower than Human Plasma, but also did not overheat,,,but Tau plasma could do nothing against AV13. Still, GW listened to the cries of Teeny Marineys and bumped the Tau Plasma to a full 20pts making it worth the price of 2 Marine plasma rifles with no change to the Tau weapon at all.

Improve the Tau stat lines and they will scream again at GW to make them more expensive or gimp something else so the less experienced teeny marineys can have an easy time getting that victory.

Codex creep has made SW/GK/BA all too simple a choice as they out fight Vanilla marines as it is unless the scenario and the vanilla player is a good tactician and his dice roll nice.

But there are too many things that make it almost impossible to stop like a charge of Thunder wolves for example. For the 10pts a FW is I say that they are over costed, they dropped a IG down to basically 5pts a man, and they can easily drop Tau FW's down a few points as the kit is so easily negated at times as to be laughable.

1) They have carapace, A) so do others and those armies also have a lot of AP4, negating that carapace.

2) The Pulse rifle has the best range. A) with so many speedy units out there, it is easy to make that null and void, or tool up stuff to 2+ or 3+ making it hard to take down.

3) Tau are so shooty, A) True, but with IG stat, they hit 50% most times, and then in CC they get eaten up pretty fast, unless one has good luck with the die rolls or the enemy whiffs with power weapons.

Firewarriors have 2 choice for starting the game, footslogging, or a devilfish. Stormies have Grav chutes, valkyries, and chimeras as well as infiltration and outflanking. PLUS they have that BS4 even if fresh out of the schola progenium.

and they come with Krak and frag as part of their kit along with a shorter ranged gun but it is AP3 afterall.
I would say 7pts would be more apt for FW teams.

I think Panzerboy26 hit the nail dead on with his post. Tau Firewarriors simply aren't this super elite cadre of warriors that some Tau players seem to believe. Their main advantage is their technology level.

1hadhq wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
(like spartans a.k.a. the most elite fighting force in human history)

im2randomghgh wrote:are worth less individually than guardsmen..

You forgot the guardswomen...

This is to much even for me

And if Spartans are "the most elite fighting force in human history" what is then French Foreign Legion, British SAS, US SEAL's.... the uber-elite fighting force in human history?

And woman can serve the army to....

Exactly not like the Persian Immortals weren't highly-trained well-to-do sons of persian families.

Or the Samurai with their quite similar rigourous training and peaceful meditation.

How about the well-armed French Musketeers with state-of-the-art weaponry, armour, and great amounts of training.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To name just a few "Elite" fighting forces

Brother Coa wrote:
And if Spartans are "the most elite fighting force in human history" what is then French Foreign Legion, British SAS, US SEAL's.... the uber-elite fighting force in human history?

If we leave technology out of the picture, the Spartens could actually be considered an equal, if not superior, elite force compared to those formations.

Warrior cultures breed excellent warriors. the Spartens were under complete militarization. France, England, and the US are most certaintly not(especially the FFL, which largely isn't even made up of frenchmen)

Spartens are trained from Birth, in those modern units you don't begin training until you are 18-20. if you were even slightly weak, you got left outside the walls to die. Boys would be regularly beaten to toughen them up. At least you weren't sent into battle untill you had at least 1 child.

AchillesFTW wrote:Exactly not like the Persian Immortals weren't highly-trained well-to-do sons of persian families.

Or the Samurai with their quite similar rigourous training and peaceful meditation.

How about the well-armed French Musketeers with state-of-the-art weaponry, armour, and great amounts of training.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To name just a few "Elite" fighting forces

I think he refers to the society revolving around these individuals and the extremely harsh training they received from a very young age. Much of the Spartan way of life and quality of the troops has been mythologized, but few cadres of fighting men come down to us from history with as much cachet.

Arguably, the Theban Sacred Band was another group of dedicated warriors in the same school as the Spartans. They even beat a vastly superior Spartan force at the battle of Leuctra. They died to a man rather than surrender to Alexander sometime later. They haven't come down to us in history as well as the Spartans largely in part to the nature of the interpersonal relationships in the unit.

I somewhat disagree with the statement, however, but I wouldn't class them with the Immortals, Apple-bearers or the French Musketeers. (One could even include English Longbowmen in that group as well.) I can see the possibility of the Samurai, but even though they were highly trained and motivated they fought more as individuals than a cohesive fighting force imho. The Spartans fought as a highly cohesive unit, almost literally a war machine on the battlefield.

The Space Marines are supposed to reflect this imagery. In one of the HH books this particular fact if discussed. One such Marine observing the combat of the Custodes during a battle sees them as fighting alone and recognizes it as a flaw. The Marine sees their real strength as fighting as a unit. Trained from a very young age to operate as a team where self sacrifice for the greater good (sorry...lol) is paramount.

Yes, FWs should have BS4. Nothing new.

No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid. Shas'Ui (I think) and above should have BS4, improving BS with markerlights across the army.

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

Sisters of Battle, Necrons, DE, GK and all SM flavors would disagree with that.

iproxtaco wrote:I think Panzerboy26 hit the nail dead on with his post. Tau Firewarriors simply aren't this super elite cadre of warriors that some Tau players seem to believe. Their main advantage is their technology level.

They still should have a better BS then your average Guardsman.

Jayden63 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

Sisters of Battle, Necrons, DE, GK and all SM flavors would disagree with that.

Very true, and I stand corrected. I didn't quite mean what I said. The Firewarrior is the basic line trooper of the Tau. They aren't the elite of the Tau military, and they're largely not experienced soldiers, so why should they have BS4 when they have no advantages over a Guardsmen bar a fancy rifle and a helmet that perhaps has some sort of imaging lens? Notice however, that all of those armies are made up of elite units with better psychical and technological advantages than a guardsmen. Balistic Skill is just that, something's skill with a ranged weapon. There's nothing to suggest why a Firewarrior should have more skill than a more experienced guardsmen. They aren't anywhere close to the skill of a Space Marine, so they shouldn't have the same stats as one. Works for external balance, as reasoned in the previous sentence, and it works for internal balance as below.
Firewarrior - BS3
Shas'Ui - BS4
Shas'O and above - BS5
Markerlights improve BS by 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Harriticus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I think Panzerboy26 hit the nail dead on with his post. Tau Firewarriors simply aren't this super elite cadre of warriors that some Tau players seem to believe. Their main advantage is their technology level.

They still should have a better BS then your average Guardsman.

No, they shouldn't, for reasons I've alluded to better above.

Jayden63 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

Sisters of Battle, Necrons, DE, GK and all SM flavors would disagree with that.

BS4 Strength 5 on basic troops is stupid though. Fire Warriors advantage is their tech, they are not super soldiers on par with Space Marines.

iproxtaco wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

Sisters of Battle, Necrons, DE, GK and all SM flavors would disagree with that.

Very true, and I stand corrected. I didn't quite mean what I said. The Firewarrior is the basic line trooper of the Tau. They aren't the elite of the Tau military, and they're largely not experienced soldiers, so why should they have BS4 when they have no advantages over a Guardsmen bar a fancy rifle and a helmet that perhaps has some sort of imaging lens? Notice however, that all of those armies are made up of elite units with better psychical and technological advantages than a guardsmen. Balistic Skill is just that, something's skill with a ranged weapon. There's nothing to suggest why a Firewarrior should have more skill than a more experienced guardsmen. They aren't anywhere close to the skill of a Space Marine, so they shouldn't have the same stats as one. Works for external balance, as reasoned in the previous sentence, and it works for internal balance as below.
Firewarrior - BS3
Shas'Ui - BS4
Shas'O and above - BS5
Markerlights improve BS by 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Harriticus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I think Panzerboy26 hit the nail dead on with his post. Tau Firewarriors simply aren't this super elite cadre of warriors that some Tau players seem to believe. Their main advantage is their technology level.

They still should have a better BS then your average Guardsman.

No, they shouldn't, for reasons I've alluded to better above.

So you really think your average Guardsmen is just as proficient in marksmanship as a Tau Fire Warrior? I'm not saying these guys are Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, or even Stromtroopers, but I do think given the fluff they should be more well trained then your average Guardsmen which is frequently thrown into battle after only a few months or weeks instruction. Not all Guardsmen are Cadians. And it's not just a fluffy matter, since the Tau have no CC they need to be better in other areas for them to be playable.

Jayden63 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

Sisters of Battle, Necrons, DE, GK and all SM flavors would disagree with that.

Really? That's your argument?

PAGK are 20 points per model(40 for a Terminator) rather than the 10 points per Fire Warrior(who has the same save as Guard with carapace).
Tactical Space Marines(from C: SM) are 16/model rather than 10. The closest unit to what you want(Scouts) is 13 points rather than 10.
Tactical Marines in C: Dark Angels are 15/model, and Grey Hunters in the SW book are as well.
Sisters of Battle are 11 pts/model in C: WH(I don't have the new codex to figure out from).
Dark Eldar are a point less than Tau Fire Warriors, with a point less armor save and are commonly used in a 'glass cannon' army list.

Harriticus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

Sisters of Battle, Necrons, DE, GK and all SM flavors would disagree with that.

Very true, and I stand corrected. I didn't quite mean what I said. The Firewarrior is the basic line trooper of the Tau. They aren't the elite of the Tau military, and they're largely not experienced soldiers, so why should they have BS4 when they have no advantages over a Guardsmen bar a fancy rifle and a helmet that perhaps has some sort of imaging lens? Notice however, that all of those armies are made up of elite units with better psychical and technological advantages than a guardsmen. Balistic Skill is just that, something's skill with a ranged weapon. There's nothing to suggest why a Firewarrior should have more skill than a more experienced guardsmen. They aren't anywhere close to the skill of a Space Marine, so they shouldn't have the same stats as one. Works for external balance, as reasoned in the previous sentence, and it works for internal balance as below.
Firewarrior - BS3
Shas'Ui - BS4
Shas'O and above - BS5
Markerlights improve BS by 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Harriticus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I think Panzerboy26 hit the nail dead on with his post. Tau Firewarriors simply aren't this super elite cadre of warriors that some Tau players seem to believe. Their main advantage is their technology level.

They still should have a better BS then your average Guardsman.

No, they shouldn't, for reasons I've alluded to better above.

So you really think your average Guardsmen is just as proficient in marksmanship as a Tau Fire Warrior? I'm not saying these guys are Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, or even Stromtroopers, but I do think given the fluff they should be more well trained then your average Guardsmen which is frequently thrown into battle after only a few months or weeks instruction. Not all Guardsmen are Cadians. And it's not just a fluffy matter, since the Tau have no CC they need to be better in other areas for them to be playable.

Yes, I do. A Guardsmen, as has already been mentioned racks up more years in battle experience than a Tau Firewarrior will likely ever even live, let alone fight in.
There are plenty of other ways to improve them. Avoiding CC rather than being more proficient at it, using wargear and other upgrades to allow individual squads to up their BS to 4. There's not really much more to be said.

Average BS:

Tau: 3.08
Ork: 2.04
IG: 3.3
SM: 4
Eldar: 4.2

Just some quick and dirty number I got from the back of the little black rule book. I too the BS of every unit and averaged it all out.