Something I noticed about Tau...

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**Kanluwen**

im2randomghgh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
nomotog wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Says who? If it has what amounts to nothing in terms of image enhancement/targeting software--then it's neither a boost OR a hindrance. You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you're not firing the gun yourself. The suit is.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?

Probably positively, since it's a "specialist" suit and is more recent/advanced than your generic XV8.

**im2randomghgh**

Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
nomotog wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Says who? If it has what amounts to nothing in terms of image enhancement/targeting software--then it's neither a boost OR a hindrance. You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you're not firing the gun yourself. The suit is.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?

Probably positively, since it's a "specialist" suit and is more recent/advanced than your generic XV8.

Well the entire head of an XV is JUST targeting software, after all the pilot is in the chest area.

And I agree on the XV9s. They are probably my favourite unit to use in all of 40k, barring Mantas/Titans/Super heavies

**nomotog**

The suit runs off a plug in interface at the level of a titan or more. They blend into the suit quite well. It's not like they are moving levers.

**Kanluwen**

im2randomghgh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
nomotog wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Says who? If it has what amounts to nothing in terms of image enhancement/targeting software--then it's neither a boost OR a hindrance. You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you're not firing the gun yourself. The suit is.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?

Probably positively, since it's a "specialist" suit and is more recent/advanced than your generic XV8.

Well the entire head of an XV is JUST targeting software, after all the pilot is in the chest area.

And again:
You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you are not operating the gun yourself. None of the tricks you learned for marksmanship are going to matter, as you'll be reliant on the suit's software to operate the weapons.

That is the difference between an Astartes and a Crisis Suited Fire Warrior. The Astartes, even wearing Scout gear and having none of the usual benefits of his Power Armor, is still that accurate through training and skill. The Power Armor and all its fancy technowizardry just improves his effectiveness.
The Crisis Suited Fire Warrior is essentially wearing a Sentinel with more guns. Since we have no information about exactly what constitutes the "targeting software" of an XV8, it's not unreasonable to assume that a generic Crisis Suit worn by a Shas'ui is using relatively less or the user could be new to operating the system or any number of factors.

**im2randomghgh**

Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
nomotog wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Says who? If it has what amounts to nothing in terms of image enhancement/targeting software--then it's neither a boost OR a hindrance. You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you're not firing the gun yourself. The suit is.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?

Probably positively, since it's a "specialist" suit and is more recent/advanced than your generic XV8.

Well the entire head of an XV is JUST targeting software, after all the pilot is in the chest area.

And again:
You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you are not operating the gun yourself. None of the tricks you learned for marksmanship are going to matter, as you'll be reliant on the suit's software to operate the weapons.

That is the difference between an Astartes and a Crisis Suited Fire Warrior. The Astartes, even wearing Scout gear and having none of the usual benefits of his Power Armor, is still that accurate through training and skill. The Power Armor and all its fancy technowizardry just improves his effectiveness.
The Crisis Suited Fire Warrior is essentially wearing a Sentinel with more guns. Since we have no information about exactly what constitutes the "targeting software" of an XV8, it's not unreasonable to assume that a generic Crisis Suit worn by a Shas'ui is using relatively less or the user could be new to operating the system or any number of factors.

Same goes for Terminator Armour (big enough that without servos, even an Astartes probably would fail to make it move) and Dreadnought Armour.

Yet they have BS4.

And the Crisis suit pilots WOULD be accurate, because although you are commanding a weapon to move rather than simply moving it, you would still be able to become quite proficient at it, hitting MORE the 50% of the time.

**Retribution**

Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
nomotog wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Says who? If it has what amounts to nothing in terms of image enhancement/targeting software--then it's neither a boost OR a hindrance. You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you're not firing the gun yourself. The suit is.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?

Probably positively, since it's a "specialist" suit and is more recent/advanced than your generic XV8.

The game would be representing accuracy at which the suit fires, whether that comes down to the suit's systems or the pilots skill is meaningless

**Kanluwen**

im2randomghgh wrote:
Same goes for Terminator Armour (big enough that without servos, even an Astartes probably would fail to make it move) and Dreadnought Armour.

Yet they have BS4.

The point. You've missed it. Which is kind of sad, because you were so close.

Terminator Armour is still effectively 'armor'. It's not a suit being worn with the operator having to transmit commands through a neural interface, which has to be translated by the Crisis Suit.

And the Crisis suit pilots WOULD be accurate, because although you are commanding a weapon to move rather than simply moving it, you would still be able to become quite proficient at it, hitting MORE the 50% of the time.

Says who?

It's easier for me to be more accurate when firing a gun with my hands than firing through a remotely operated turret.

Retribution wrote:The game would be representing accuracy at which the suit fires, whether that comes down to the suit's systems or the pilots skill is meaningless

You say that like it's not basically what I implied in my post, outside of you confusing the fact that the suit does not fire independently and requires the systems to operate.

**1hadhq**

VCR > Tau vehicles basic BS = 3

orks are BS 2 except 2 of them. Who are BS 3....
necrons max BS 4...
nids 4x BS4 anything else lower...

Tau
- shas ' o = BS 5

a nigh complete listing of 40k units with BS 5 and higher.

BS 5

Spoiler:

BS 6:

Spoiler:

BS 7:

Spoiler:

BS8:

Spoiler:

BS9:

Spoiler:

Characters are found in BS 5. A few may get BS 6.
Elves get BS 6 -7-8-9
Only assasins have as non-elves BS 8

What was this BS 7 claim again based on?

**im2randomghgh**

Retribution wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
nomotog wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Says who? If it has what amounts to nothing in terms of image enhancement/targeting software--then it's neither a boost OR a hindrance. You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you're not firing the gun yourself. The suit is.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?

Probably positively, since it's a "specialist" suit and is more recent/advanced than your generic XV8.

The game would be representing accuracy at which the suit fires, whether that comes down to the suit's systems or the pilots skill is meaningless

You're ignoring what we said in the same convo you quoted. He said "BS3 cause their skill don't matter" I said "even with just suit systems, they are accurate cuz o' da stuf in da head looking part".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:VCR > Tau vehicles basic BS = 3

orks are BS 2 except 2 of them. Who are BS 3....
necrons max BS 4...
nids 4x BS4 anything else lower...

Tau
- shas ' o = BS 5

a nigh complete listing of 40k units with BS 5 and higher.

BS 5

Spoiler:

CSM:
- abbaddon
- ahriman
- chaos general
- chaos sorceror
- demon prince
- huron blackheart
- Kharn
- lucius
- typhus

CD:
- fateweaver
- greater demon of tzentch

WH
- principalis
- procurata
- assassin

Eldar
- avatar
- eldrad
- exarch
- seer

DE
- haemunculus
- kheradruakh
- klaivex
- rakarth

SM
- captain
- sicarius
- chronus
- lysander
- shrike
- kor'sarro
- calgar
- MOTF
- chapter master
- kantor
- he'stan
- ven dread

SW
- arjac
- grimnar
- lukas
- wolfguard hero
- ragnar
- ulrik
- wolfslord
- ven dread

DA
- interrogatorchaplain
- azrael
- belial
- ezekiel
- sammael
- chapter master
- librarian
- chaplain
- captain

BT
- marshal
- castellan
- reclusiarch
- chaplain
- grimaldus
- helbrecht

BA
- astorath
- captain
- tycho
- dante
- seth
- corbulo
- mephiston
- reclusiarch
- sanguinor

IG
- yarrick
- commissar lord
- marbo

GK
- brother captian
- stern
- ven dread

BS 6:

Spoiler:

Eldar
- yriel
- autarch

DE
- sliscus
- sathonyx
- succubus

SM
- telion

SW
- bjorn

GK
- draigo
- mordrak
- grand master

BS 7:

Spoiler:

Eldar
- phoenixkings

DE
- archon
- drazhar
- malys

BS8:

Spoiler:

DE
- vect

GK
- assasins

BS9:

Spoiler:

DE
- lelith

Characters are found in BS 5. A few may get BS 6.
Elves get BS 6 -7-8-9
Only assasins have as non-elves BS 8

What was this BS 7 claim again based on?

You seem to forget that Shadowsun, the greatest warrior of A SPECIES OF BILLIONS, would STILL be lower than an Assassin, right?

Also, I am sorry that parasites, orks, and undead don't get any BS7.

In fluff Shadowsun would DEFINATELY kill a single assassin. The only one that MIGHT have a chance would be a vindicaire/Callidus who could take her without her even knowing, but Culexus and Eversor would be spotted, and Melta'd. Plus, she could just fly and shoot them from the air. Without melee, they would not be able to down her shield ('Cept Vindicare) and Callidus who could kill her in her sleep.

**Retribution**

Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Same goes for Terminator Armour (big enough that without servos, even an Astartes probably would fail to make it move) and Dreadnought Armour.

Yet they have BS4.

The point. You've missed it. Which is kind of sad, because you were so close.

Terminator Armour is still effectively 'armor'. It's not a suit being worn with the operator having to transmit commands through a neural interface, which has to be translated by the Crisis Suit.

And the Crisis suit pilots WOULD be accurate, because although you are commanding a weapon to move rather than simply moving it, you would still be able to become quite proficient at it, hitting MORE the 50% of the time.

Says who?

It's easier for me to be more accurate when firing a gun with my hands than firing through a remotely operated turret.

Retribution wrote:The game would be representing accuracy at which the suit fires, whether that comes down to the suit's systems or the pilots skill is meaningless

You say that like it's not basically what I implied in my post, outside of you confusing the fact that the suit does not fire independently and requires the systems to operate.

Crisis suits aren't using the equivalent of personal firearms though, that would be like saying a tank would fire more accurately with entirely mechanical controls rather than being electronically / computer assisted

If i misinterpreted your post, my apologies, but i don't believe i said suits can fire independently?

**ForgottenRealm**

@ random - I fail to see how being a fanboy lends substance to your arguments. Look at it this way. Take ONLY the Tau codex (preferably Tau Empire). Find something in THAT codex that substantiates your assertions (preferably non-fluff, for example: instead of whining that your basic troops should be BS 4, you could rightfully argue that your vets/sergeants/special units have a higher BS...but not 7). Now you have discovered a valid argument. Barring that you are simply grasping at straws, and all of your claims that firewarriors shouldn't have BS 3 don't change the fact that they do.

**Janthkin**

im2randomghgh wrote:You seem to forget that Shadowsun, the greatest warrior of A SPECIES OF BILLIONS, would STILL be lower than an Assassin, right?

No, it's that Shadowsun's SUIT has limits, beyond which skill is meaningless. To analogize: you can be the best rifleman in the world, but if you're shooting a 17th century musket, your accuracy is still greatly limited.

I always viewed all the targeting systems on the Crisis suits as being the reason they still have BS 3, in spite of JSJ'ing all over the place; they're moving twice as fast as an un-suited Fire Warrior, and are able to retain their accuracy in spite of the speed & firing heavier weapons at longer ranges.

**Retribution**

Janthkin wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:You seem to forget that Shadowsun, the greatest warrior of A SPECIES OF BILLIONS, would STILL be lower than an Assassin, right?
No, it's that Shadowsun's SUIT has limits, beyond which skill is meaningless. To analogize: you can be the best rifleman in the world, but if you're shooting a 17th century musket, your accuracy is still greatly limited.

I always viewed all the targeting systems on the Crisis suits as being the reason they still have BS 3, in spite of JSJ'ing all over the place; they're moving twice as fast as an un-suited Fire Warrior, and are able to retain their accuracy in spite of the speed & firing heavier weapons at longer ranges.

I imagine it had more to do with balance than it did with fluff; if i remember correctly back in 4th edition, markerlight spam, and the tau in general, were significantly better?

**1hadhq**

im2randomghgh wrote:
You seem to forget that Shadowsun, the greatest warrior of A SPECIES OF BILLIONS, would STILL be lower than an Assassin, right?

You seem to forget to read the provided info.

The moment you try to out-BS elves or elves in space is the time when BS is no longer the abbrevation of ballistic skill...just sayin...

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, I am sorry that parasites, orks, and undead don't get any BS7.

In fluff Shadowsun would DEFINATELY kill a single assassin. The only one that MIGHT have a chance would be a vindicaire/Callidus who could take her without her even knowing, but Culexus and Eversor would be spotted, and Melta'd. Plus, she could just fly and shoot them from the air. Without melee, they would not be able to down her shield ('Cept Vindicare) and Callidus who could kill her in her sleep.

lets see...fanfic...goes to dakka fiction...

**Janthkin**

Retribution wrote:
Janthkin wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:You seem to forget that Shadowsun, the greatest warrior of A SPECIES OF BILLIONS, would STILL be lower than an Assassin, right?
No, it's that Shadowsun's SUIT has limits, beyond which skill is meaningless. To analogize: you can be the best rifleman in the world, but if you're shooting a 17th century musket, your accuracy is still greatly limited.

I always viewed all the targeting systems on the Crisis suits as being the reason they still have BS 3, in spite of JSJ'ing all over the place; they're moving twice as fast as an un-suited Fire Warrior, and are able to retain their accuracy in spite of the speed & firing heavier weapons at longer ranges.

I imagine it had more to do with balance than it did with fluff; if i remember correctly back in 4th edition, markerlight spam, and the tau in general, were significantly better?

You mean the Tau codex, as opposed to the Tau Empire codex? Not really; the initial Tau codex didn't last long, and TE added some very nice stuff. (4e was good for Tau Empire: skimmers didn't block LoS, cover wasn't as prevalent, and non-fleet units couldn't Run at you.)

**Kanluwen**

im2randomghgh wrote:
Retribution wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
nomotog wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Says who? If it has what amounts to nothing in terms of image enhancement/targeting software--then it's neither a boost OR a hindrance. You can be as skilled a marksman as you want, but you're not firing the gun yourself. The suit is.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?

Probably positively, since it's a "specialist" suit and is more recent/advanced than your generic XV8.

The game would be representing accuracy at which the suit fires, whether that comes down to the suit's systems or the pilots skill is meaningless

You're ignoring what we said in the same convo you quoted. He said "BS3 cause their skill don't matter" I said "even with just suit systems, they are accurate cuz o' da stuf in da head looking part".

You're ignoring what I said. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely is less equipped than the 'veteran' Crisis Suits.

It's the same difference between the Carapace Armor of your run of the mill Guard Veteran and the Carapace Armor of a Kasrkin. The armor is, overall, the same--but the Kasrkin also has integrated equipment for his helmet that incorporates an auspex, communications gear that normally isn't found on Guard infantry helmets but rather is normally mounted in Vox-Casters, targeting arrays, etc.

**im2randomghgh**

Janthkin wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:You seem to forget that Shadowsun, the greatest warrior of A SPECIES OF BILLIONS, would STILL be lower than an Assassin, right?
No, it's that Shadowsun's SUIT has limits, beyond which skill is meaningless. To analogize: you can be the best rifleman in the world, but if you're shooting a 17th century musket, your accuracy is still greatly limited.

I always viewed all the targeting systems on the Crisis suits as being the reason they still have BS 3, in spite of JSJ'ing all over the place; they're moving twice as fast as an un-suited Fire Warrior, and are able to retain their accuracy in spite of the speed & firing heavier weapons at longer ranges.

The JSJ is meant to represent the flying into the air, then hovering on a stable firing platform made by the thrust from their suits matching the planet's gravity...yeah, sounds like BS, but it's from the codex. They basically stay dead still in the air, fire, then land and hide.

**Janthkin**

im2randomghgh wrote:
Janthkin wrote:I always viewed all the targeting systems on the Crisis suits as being the reason they still have BS 3, in spite of JSJ'ing all over the place; they're moving twice as fast as an un-suited Fire Warrior, and are able to retain their accuracy in spite of the speed & firing heavier weapons at longer ranges.

The JSJ is meant to represent the flying into the air, then hovering on a stable firing platform made by the thrust from their suits matching the planet's gravity...yeah, sounds like BS, but it's from the codex. They basically stay dead still in the air, fire, then land and hide.

It's still not a lot of time to aim.

**ForgottenRealm**

@ Tau fans - Seriously, is there anything at all, other than fluff, to back your claims?

**im2randomghgh**

1hadhq wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
You seem to forget that Shadowsun, the greatest warrior of A SPECIES OF BILLIONS, would STILL be lower than an Assassin, right?

You seem to forget to read the provided info.

The moment you try to out-BS elves or elves in space is the time when BS is no longer the abbrevation of ballistic skill...just sayin...

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, I am sorry that parasites, orks, and undead don't get any BS7.

In fluff Shadowsun would DEFINATELY kill a single assassin. The only one that MIGHT have a chance would be a vindicaire/Callidus who could take her without her even knowing, but Culexus and Eversor would be spotted, and Melta'd. Plus, she could just fly and shoot them from the air. Without melee, they would not be able to down her shield ('Cept Vindicare) and Callidus who could kill her in her sleep.

lets see...fanfic...goes to dakka fiction...

I am not the one who came up with the idea of Shadowsun at BS7, someone did that near the beginning, I am just saying that on the TT it would be VERY helpful, make Shadowsun worth using, and though it would be unlikely Shadowsun is that skilled, it is vaguely plausible, so I am holding on. How about you? what's your faction? If a hero unit from it who is kinds gimpy had a chance to actually become decent, would you take it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Janthkin wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Janthkin wrote:I always viewed all the targeting systems on the Crisis suits as being the reason they still have BS 3, in spite of JSJ'ing all over the place; they're moving twice as fast as an un-suited Fire Warrior, and are able to retain their accuracy in spite of the speed & firing heavier weapons at longer ranges.

The JSJ is meant to represent the flying into the air, then hovering on a stable firing platform made by the thrust from their suits matching the planet's gravity...yeah, sounds like BS, but it's from the codex. They basically stay dead still in the air, fire, then land and hide.
It's still not a lot of time to aim.

It is actually several seconds long.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ForgottenRealm wrote:@ Tau fans - Seriously, is there anything at all, other than fluff, to back your claims?

Don't like it? then WTF are you doing in a thread about Tau? No Trolls allowed.

**ForgottenRealm**

Look, I'm really trying to help here, really. I play both Tau and SM, so it's not as if I'm disinterested.

You need to start backing your arguments with numbers. Numbers from your own codex. Using fluff alone as argument is purely academic and wont stand a chance of convincing anyone.

I for one wouldn't care at all if FW BS was raised. I don't like them, and I only ever use the minimum FOC required. I like suits. I like the vehicles, and I hate Ethereals. Is the fluff interesting and/or nice? Sure. Does it effect how we play the game? Not is the least.

What's your (or anyone else's) real objective here? Cause this? All this creative energy? Yeah, you could be using it over in proposed rules.

**Retribution**

ForgottenRealm wrote:@ Tau fans - Seriously, is there anything at all, other than fluff, to back your claims?

Regarding Elite and veteran units being able to shoot like...elite veterans?

**ForgottenRealm**

Retribution wrote:
ForgottenRealm wrote:@ Tau fans - Seriously, is there anything at all, other than fluff, to back your claims?

Regarding Elite and veteran units being able to shoot like...elite veterans?

Did you even read my earlier posts? It doesn't sound like it. It's a thread. Scroll up.

**im2randomghgh**

ForgottenRealm wrote:Look, I'm really trying to help here, really. I play both Tau and SM, so it's not as if I'm disinterested.

You need to start backing your arguments with numbers. Numbers from your own codex. Using fluff alone as argument is purely academic and wont stand a chance of convincing anyone.

I for one wouldn't care at all if FW BS was raised. I don't like them, and I only ever use the minimum FOC required. I like suits. I like the vehicles, and I hate Ethereals. Is the fluff interesting and/or nice? Sure. Does it effect how we play the game? Not is the least.

What's your (or anyone else's) real objective here? Cause this? All this creative energy? Yeah, you could be using it over in proposed rules.

My point was you wouldn't NEED to take min FOC requirement if they were good. Then you could have solid numbers, of quality units, who AREN'T bubblewrap (kroot)

**ForgottenRealm**

im2randomghgh wrote:
ForgottenRealm wrote:Look, I'm really trying to help here, really. I play both Tau and SM, so it's not as if I'm disinterested.

You need to start backing your arguments with numbers. Numbers from your own codex. Using fluff alone as argument is purely academic and wont stand a chance of convincing anyone.

I for one wouldn't care at all if FW BS was raised. I don't like them, and I only ever use the minimum FOC required. I like suits. I like the vehicles, and I hate Ethereals. Is the fluff interesting and/or nice? Sure. Does it effect how we play the game? Not is the least.

What's your (or anyone else's) real objective here? Cause this? All this creative energy? Yeah, you could be using it over in proposed rules.

My point was you wouldn't NEED to take min FOC requirement if they were good. Then you could have solid numbers, of quality units, who AREN'T bubblewrap (kroot)

You missed the point of what I said. Not all Tau players care about their FW. I specifically said that I wouldn't take them even if their BS was higher. Other Tau players (well, at least one) have posted here that they just want the cost lowered. I agree with this solution. And I'm not the only Tau player who feels this way. Many of us hate the models even! That's why I've been trying to get you to use numbers from within the codex to support your claim. I mean, if you don't even have the support of many other Tau players, what do you have?

**im2randomghgh**

ForgottenRealm wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
ForgottenRealm wrote:Look, I'm really trying to help here, really. I play both Tau and SM, so it's not as if I'm disinterested.

You need to start backing your arguments with numbers. Numbers from your own codex. Using fluff alone as argument is purely academic and wont stand a chance of convincing anyone.

I for one wouldn't care at all if FW BS was raised. I don't like them, and I only ever use the minimum FOC required. I like suits. I like the vehicles, and I hate Ethereals. Is the fluff interesting and/or nice? Sure. Does it effect how we play the game? Not is the least.

What's your (or anyone else's) real objective here? Cause this? All this creative energy? Yeah, you could be using it over in proposed rules.

My point was you wouldn't NEED to take min FOC requirement if they were good. Then you could have solid numbers, of quality units, who AREN'T bubblewrap (kroot)

You missed the point of what I said. Not all Tau players care about their FW. I specifically said that I wouldn't take them even if their BS was higher. Other Tau players (well, at least one) have posted here that they just want the cost lowered. I agree with this solution. And I'm not the only Tau player who feels this way. Many of us hate the models even! That's why I've been trying to get you to use numbers from within the codex to support your claim. I mean, if you don't even have the support of many other Tau players, what do you have?

Reduced cost is all well and good, but I want the few FW i DO invest in to be able to DO something once I sit them on an objective. Plus I play BIG points games, around 4000, so I don't care too much about points. I DO care about quality, since One of the thing I sometimes run (rarely) is a Manta filled with 188 FW.

**ForgottenRealm**

im2randomghgh wrote:
ForgottenRealm wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
ForgottenRealm wrote:Look, I'm really trying to help here, really. I play both Tau and SM, so it's not as if I'm disinterested.

You need to start backing your arguments with numbers. Numbers from your own codex. Using fluff alone as argument is purely academic and wont stand a chance of convincing anyone.

I for one wouldn't care at all if FW BS was raised. I don't like them, and I only ever use the minimum FOC required. I like suits. I like the vehicles, and I hate Ethereals. Is the fluff interesting and/or nice? Sure. Does it effect how we play the game? Not is the least.

What's your (or anyone else's) real objective here? Cause this? All this creative energy? Yeah, you could be using it over in proposed rules.

My point was you wouldn't NEED to take min FOC requirement if they were good. Then you could have solid numbers, of quality units, who AREN'T bubblewrap (kroot)

You missed the point of what I said. Not all Tau players care about their FW. I specifically said that I wouldn't take them even if their BS was higher. Other Tau players (well, at least one) have posted here that they just want the cost lowered. I agree with this solution. And I'm not the only Tau player who feels this way. Many of us hate the models even! That's why I've been trying to get you to use numbers from within the codex to support your claim. I mean, if you don't even have the support of many other Tau players, what do you have?

Reduced cost is all well and good, but I want the few FW i DO invest in to be able to DO something once I sit them on an objective. Plus I play BIG points games, around 4000, so I don't care too much about points. I DO care about quality, since One of the thing I sometimes run (rarely) is a Manta filled with 188 FW.

See, here is the first self explanatory thing you've said: "I" want...maybe not many other people do and you just need to deal with it?

im2randomghgh wrote:
/rant

And I'm sorry. I'm really sorry that I missed this in your first post.

**Iur_tae_mont**

I said I would like BS7 on Shadowsun, but I also said I didn't expect them to do it in the same post.

Also, what's this I heard about setting Fire Warriors on Objectives? You don't to that.

Even the Codex Says so. Gotta keep moving then on the last turn take the objective.

The Tau don't see territory as important as living Soldiers and are willing to give ground up to keep some guys alive (or give up some ground to take out some enemy) That's why we have a Strategy rating of 1.

**im2randomghgh**

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I said I would like BS7 on Shadowsun, but I also said I didn't expect them to do it in the same post.

Also, what's this I heard about setting Fire Warriors on Objectives? You don't to that. Even the Codex Says so. Gotta keep moving then on the last turn take the objective.

The Tau don't see territory as important as living Soldiers and are willing to give ground up to keep some guys alive (or give up some ground to take out some enemy) That's why we have a Strategy rating of 1.

I put them there on turn five usually.

Clear the way with suits, move the tau to objective, support with suits.

**KamikazeCanuck**

I think the Tau have a strategy rating of 1 because they have trouble reacting to threats from a galactic perspective rather than a battlefield one.