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Fire Warriors are probably a better shot then the standard Guardsman, but not on the level that they get upgraded to BS4. It's a problem with the stat scale.

Grey Templar wrote:Actually, the cannon fodder of the IG codex is BS2. they are called conscripts.

that is what an untrained human shoots like.


a trained guardsmen has BS3, just like a trained Fire Warrior.

For shooting I'd put them up against Veteran Cadians.

I'd put a stock IG shooter against a Kroot or Vespid.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Actually, the cannon fodder of the IG codex is BS2. they are called conscripts.

that is what an untrained human shoots like.


a trained guardsmen has BS3, just like a trained Fire Warrior.

For shooting I'd put them up against Veteran Cadians.

I'd put a stock IG shooter against a Kroot or Vespid.

A kroot is probably a good comparison.

Vespid might be somewhat better shots though, considering they have multi-faceted eyes that would make depth perception and eyeing didstances quite easy for them

im2randomghgh wrote:
Seals train for a few years, and learn survival, tactics and combat. Spartans are trained from age six and denied citizenship unless they meet the standards. The small, weak babies are killed shortly after birth. They spend their youths learn to kill, rather than socializing and watching T.V. like seals.

Even the SAS, head and shoulders...and chest and waist above the other modern fighting forces never have to endure anything even vaguely similar to what spartans go through for the right to be citizens.

They even had the females performing rigourous athletics so as to pass on superior traits to their children.

Spartans, in their teenage years, are set loose to terrorize entire populations of helots, and expected to steal and kill to survive.

I haven't, and don't intend to watch the movie, and you can search any of this up if you'd like.

And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

See, that's the thing. You are correct, the training that Spartans endured is likely just as bad if not worse than what SEALs have to go through, and they did it for much longer.

The Tau DO NOT experience that sort of training. Tau fire warrior training is nowhere near that rigorous. They are NOT Spartans. They are raised 'from birth' for combat. For Tau, as stated, 'combat' from the eyes of a fire warrior is basically firing your Pulse Rifle at things, flying around in a tank, drilling, and learning small unit combat tactics. Simply because they have better guns does not mean that they are any better at shooting them.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And to whoever said the Tanith are superior to astartes, please check your fanboidom at the door.

*bites lower lip in an effort to not laugh*

^@ last line, 2-3 tac squads could, in fluff, destroy the regiment.

In fairness to the Tanith, they're better at stealth than seven foot tall armour clad warriors.

The problem with the Tau getting a BS upgrade would be that it would make them as good as Space Marines, warriors that actually do get Spartan training and have auto senses to aid their shooting as well.

im2randomghgh wrote:^@ last line, 2-3 tac squads could, in fluff, destroy the regiment.

Not what I meant. The Tainth Army's super power (back when it had rules) was that it got to ingore the Ranger Disruption Table from the old Altioc Ranger list. Outside of that, meh.

I was more commenting on how you were jumping on people for flaunting their 'fanboyness'... in a thread you started about how the basic troopers of your favorite army aren't nearly as awesome rules-wise as you perceive them to be in the fluff. Pot calling the kettle black, etc.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

You are REALLY underestimating the "standard Guardsman".

Many of your "standard Guardsmen" in terms of regiments drawn up from Hive Worlds are former Hive Gangers. That's some 'combat experience' right there.

A Soldier taken from the day he/she is born being trained to use one weapon day/night without let-up is impressive. Then you factor in the Soldier is a fast learner who sleeps less then a human and obeys orders like a clone... what you have is a well oiled killer. These Soldiers are so dedicated to their efficiency and cause they take a machete and cut a wound across their chests to remind them they get back into the fight on pure willpower.

These Soldiers serve a lifetime, dedicated to the state and nothing, not even a personal life gets in the way of service to the state.

Armed with advanced armor and rifles and trained in a variety of complex hunting doctrines, they live a life of warfare until they die in service to their cause or retire into politics.

There is a group of Imperials who match this type of training and share a cultural mentality of service to the state, they are called Cadians. Essentially, the Tau Fire Warriors are all Cadian level Soldiers in comparison.

So I guess the only thing that is confusing, is why are these guys shooting like a Valhallan piece of cannon fodder?

We've been through this debate before, and I'm sure you're quite well aware of it.

Nothing at all suggests that the Tau "serve a lifetime and that they train to use one weapon day/night without let-up". And I wouldn't call the bonding knife a "machete", by any stretch of the imagination. We have practically no information about the Fire Caste's way of life, but what we do know is that they are trained with "simulated" combat against drones.

And? Live fire training against drones is good. To IG troopers get to practice with live fire against other guard? no? +1 for FW.

And yes, it is canon that Fire Warriors spend their lives training. There is nothing but war/training in a fire warrior's life, it is what they are bred for.

im2randomghgh wrote:And? Live fire training against drones is good. To IG troopers get to practice with live fire against other guard? no? +1 for FW.

Actually, yes--they do.

There's even a description for it. It's a "Cadian exercise".

And yes, it is canon that Fire Warriors spend their lives training. There is nothing but war/training in a fire warrior's life, it is what they are bred for.

Cite.A.Source.

We have exactly nothing stating that Fire Warriors "spend their lives training". We know that at some point, they do begin training and that the Fire Caste are in fact a genetic branch that specifically became the Fire Caste.

On thing people seem to be overlooking is that Tau are aliens. Maybe they get more out of their training than humans do. Maybe they have better xenos granted affinity with ranged weapons than human do. There is alot that can easily (even if its a cop out) dismissed because of the alien factor.

There is no reason why the firewarrior couldn't be BS 4 for other reasons beyond just training. Also your guardsman apparently knows how to use a combat knife. Some HTH training has to have taken place thus taking up time the Firewarrior uses on his gun. Since its obvious that a firewarrior without his gun is worthless.

My biggest reason for allowing the upgrade to BS4 is the SOB Sister. Nothing says sisters are augmented or trained more than a Firewarrior. Sisters used to be BS3, but they sucked so when Witch Hunters codex came out the entire sisters army got upgraded to BS4 for no fluff reason, but simply because the army needed it to perform. Tau Firewarriors need an upgrade to perform to make up for the total lack of ability in all other aspects of the game.

Make the unit playable first, then write whatever the hell you want to justify it. Its not like its the first time GW has done this, and it sure wont be the last.

It seems like people are making a lot of assumptions.

What we know-
Fire Warriors are raised from thousands of years of fighters.
They are raised with only one purpose- Fighting.
They value range and train in marksmanship.
Sure, they don't like CC, but they don't completely disregard it as unnecessary, or kroot wouldn't be seen on the line.
What we don't know- (provide some proof and I'll edit this)
Lifespan
Training techniques (Including experience)
Other stuff I noticed but forgot.

Don't make stuff up to make a point.

Kanluwen wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

You are REALLY underestimating the "standard Guardsman".

Many of your "standard Guardsmen" in terms of regiments drawn up from Hive Worlds are former Hive Gangers. That's some 'combat experience' right there.

A Soldier taken from the day he/she is born being trained to use one weapon day/night without let-up is impressive. Then you factor in the Soldier is a fast learner who sleeps less then a human and obeys orders like a clone... what you have is a well oiled killer. These Soldiers are so dedicated to their efficiency and cause they take a machete and cut a wound across their chests to remind them they get back into the fight on pure willpower.

These Soldiers serve a lifetime, dedicated to the state and nothing, not even a personal life gets in the way of service to the state.

Armed with advanced armor and rifles and trained in a variety of complex hunting doctrines, they live a life of warfare until they die in service to their cause or retire into politics.

There is a group of Imperials who match this type of training and share a cultural mentality of service to the state, they are called Cadians. Essentially, the Tau Fire Warriors are all Cadian level Soldiers in comparison.

So I guess the only thing that is confusing, is why are these guys shooting like a Valhallan piece of cannon fodder?

We've been through this debate before, and I'm sure you're quite well aware of it.

Nothing at all suggests that the Tau "serve a lifetime and that they train to use one weapon day/night without let-up". And I wouldn't call the bonding knife a "machete", by any stretch of the imagination. We have practically no information about the Fire Caste's way of life, but what we do know is that they are trained with "simulated" combat against drones.

It is in their codex that they serve a lifetime to the state, will kill themselves on command and take a nice hefty blade to their chests to display their devotion. Their training is nothing but shooting and they train via live fire from an early age as Shas'la infantry.

Extended fluff paints the picture further, these Soldiers aren't an equal to standard IG. They are superior to them, in a number of instances we see how Astartes are required to break their lines. Just as we see time and again how all battles with IG v Tau that Tau outclass them constantly.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And? Live fire training against drones is good. To IG troopers get to practice with live fire against other guard? no? +1 for FW.

Actually, yes--they do.

There's even a description for it. It's a "Cadian exercise".

And yes, it is canon that Fire Warriors spend their lives training. There is nothing but war/training in a fire warrior's life, it is what they are bred for.

Cite.A.Source.

We have exactly nothing stating that Fire Warriors "spend their lives training". We know that at some point, they do begin training and that the Fire Caste are in fact a genetic branch that specifically became the Fire Caste.

It's implied Kan.

They spend their lives as Infantry in the 41st and have a mind that is controlled by Ethereals. They live in a dedicated Caste system and have massive training domes on a number of worlds, some of which are renowned for the quality of their soldiers. You're definition of these guys seems to be "Well they fight, but then they take the next 5 years off and relax." Even though they have a constant progressive system of advancement, all steps of which involve combat or ritualistic training until they die or retire.

BS4 man...

^ Super Exalt

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

It is in their codex that they serve a lifetime to the state, will kill themselves on command and take a nice hefty blade to their chests to display their devotion. Their training is nothing but shooting and they train via live fire from an early age as Shas'la infantry.

Extended fluff paints the picture further, these Soldiers aren't an equal to standard IG. They are superior to them, in a number of instances we see how Astartes are required to break their lines. Just as we see time and again how all battles with IG v Tau that Tau outclass them constantly.

And that says a lot about how fanatical and devoted to their cause they are. It says nothing about their ability to line sights up and put shots reliably on target at long range in the hell of the battlefield. Guard train during live fire as well, from a fairly early age as well. Death Korps of Krieg, Mordian Iron Warriors, Cadian Shock Troopers, and Catachan Jungle Fighters are all examples of regiments whose recruits train just as much if not more and earlier than the Tau do... all of whom are saddled with BS 3.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

It's implied Kan.

They spend their lives as Infantry in the 41st and have a mind that is controlled by Ethereals. They live in a dedicated Caste system and have massive training domes on a number of worlds, some of which are renowned for the quality of their soldiers. You're definition of these guys seems to be "Well they fight, but then they take the next 5 years off and relax." Even though they have a constant progressive system of advancement, all steps of which involve combat or ritualistic training until they die or retire.

BS4 man...

And, so do Guardsmen. Their minds are controlled by the dogmatic Imperial Creed. Many Regiments are renowned for the quality of their soldiers (MANY more than the Tau, simply becuase of the respective size of the empires in question).

I'll grant that the battlesuit vets likely have a decent claim to BS 4. However, the basic Tau trooper? No. Fire Warriors are humans, slightly shorter, blue, one less finger, with a shorter life-span. Nothing about them or their training justifies giving their basic grunts BS 4.

Most of you people are mistaking training for skill. What is true for Ancient Sparta is true for the Roman Legion, which is true for the medieval knight, and is still true for your modern soldier. Training offers you a crash course in conditioning, and teaching you how to use the instruments of war. Skill can be taken out of training. You learn how to use a sword, but you must develop your own style of fighting, lest you face an opponent who knows how you were taught and uses that against you. You learn how to fight on a horse, and they teach you how to balance yourself on the horse with your 80pound armor and ten pound lance, but you're going to have to learn for yourself how strong your upper body is and what your limits are when riding on horseback.
In the military today, they teach you how to use a rifle, and how to shoot with it, but with all the different weapons we have as well as many different styles of warfare, they're not going to tell you how many ways you can die. That's for you the soldier to find out, and hopefully NOT end up that way while your at it. Training is training, but it can't make up for the experience gained in that trade.

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

I heard you never heard of most other armies in the game, that all have standard troops with BS 4.

Fire warriors train solely for ranged combat. From a young age, very young compared to human standards. This means they have something like 10 years of training under their belts normally.

Fire warrior equipment compensates for their eyesight deficiencies and also assists in targeting enemies.

In game terms, tau have absolutely no melee capability, were as guardsmen have the ability to do decent have have armor ignoring attacks in melee. Saying tau should only have bs 3 after all this is just saying I want to win against tau.

I feel the need to point out that the tau do improve there CC as they get experience. A commander has 4 WS and 4A. The idea that the tau only train in range is exaggerated. Heck the cover of the codex has a fire warrior holding a staff weapon. (You can tell he is fire caste by the circle symbol.)

Panzerboy26 wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

It is in their codex that they serve a lifetime to the state, will kill themselves on command and take a nice hefty blade to their chests to display their devotion. Their training is nothing but shooting and they train via live fire from an early age as Shas'la infantry.

Extended fluff paints the picture further, these Soldiers aren't an equal to standard IG. They are superior to them, in a number of instances we see how Astartes are required to break their lines. Just as we see time and again how all battles with IG v Tau that Tau outclass them constantly.

And that says a lot about how fanatical and devoted to their cause they are. It says nothing about their ability to line sights up and put shots reliably on target at long range in the hell of the battlefield. Guard train during live fire as well, from a fairly early age as well. Death Korps of Krieg, Mordian Iron Warriors, Cadian Shock Troopers, and Catachan Jungle Fighters are all examples of regiments whose recruits train just as much if not more and earlier than the Tau do... all of whom are saddled with BS 3.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

It's implied Kan.

They spend their lives as Infantry in the 41st and have a mind that is controlled by Ethereals. They live in a dedicated Caste system and have massive training domes on a number of worlds, some of which are renowned for the quality of their soldiers. You're definition of these guys seems to be "Well they fight, but then they take the next 5 years off and relax." Even though they have a constant progressive system of advancement, all steps of which involve combat or ritualistic training until they die or retire.

BS4 man...

And, so do Guardsmen. Their minds are controlled by the dogmatic Imperial Creed. Many Regiments are renowned for the quality of their soldiers (MANY more than the Tau, simply becuase of the respective size of the empires in question).

I'll grant that the battlesuit vets likely have a decent claim to BS 4. However, the basic Tau trooper? No. Fire Warriors are humans, slightly shorter, blue, one less finger, with a shorter life-span. Nothing about them or their training justifies giving their basic grunts BS 4.

1. The fact they use longer ranged weapons and train only with said weapons their entire life is proof enough these guys aren't the same as IG. Comparing the physical traits is pointless, a small man can outshoot a big muscled man with ease, why on earth would the size or strength of someone play into shooting. Muscle memory and time on a range are what make a grunt shoot like a champ, not being 10 feet tall and bench pressing 1000 lbs.

2. Their isn't an earlier age to train then the Tau start at, because from the moment they are born, the state owns them. When they can comprehend and obey, they are in the system for life. While Ethereal leadership is present there is no defection, no heretics, no anything except the greater good. Their isn't an equal in the Imperium to that kind of loyalty as the most powerful warmaster defecting proved. The only way it goes awry is when the Ethereal is killed off and no others are present to replace him/her.

And that says a lot about how fanatical and devoted to their cause they are. It says nothing about their ability to line sights up and put shots reliably on target at long range in the hell of the battlefield. Guard train during live fire as well, from a fairly early age as well. Death Korps of Krieg, Mordian Iron Warriors, Cadian Shock Troopers, and Catachan Jungle Fighters are all examples of regiments whose recruits train just as much if not more and earlier than the Tau do... all of whom are saddled with BS 3.

are you trolling? Tau have much shorter childhoods, they be training before most guardsmen-to-be were over 4' tall, midgets and ratlings notwithstanding.

And while the Death Korps and Cadians do induct fairly early, most IG are workers who are tithed out.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

juraigamer wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

I heard you never heard of most other armies in the game, that all have standard troops with BS 4.

Fire warriors train solely for ranged combat. From a young age, very young compared to human standards. This means they have something like 10 years of training under their belts normally.

Fire warrior equipment compensates for their eyesight deficiencies and also assists in targeting enemies.

In game terms, tau have absolutely no melee capability, were as guardsmen have the ability to do decent have have armor ignoring attacks in melee. Saying tau should only have bs 3 after all this is just saying I want to win against tau.

Agreed, except they have superior eyesight. Their pupils don't dilate, but they see a considerably larger spectrum, meaning they have slight infra-red ultra-violet sight.

A Note on Tau pupil dilation:
The pupil dilates in response to an emotional stimuli/focus on an important object. This focus occurs relatively quickly in humans.

The slow dilation would mean that the Tau would actually have difficulty focusing in on a target that had entered their field of vision with the same speed as a guardsman.

The dilation speed also means that, when exposed to different light saturations, the tau have a more difficult time adjusting (i.e. going from low-saturation light to high-saturation light and vice versa).

Both of these can occur often in combat. Focusing on a fast moving target/target in a new line of vision is terribly important. Even a few centi-seconds delay can result in a significant lack of efficiency. The same with light saturation, as a single burst from a shell near a fire warrior squad would render it unable to adjust from the light for a short period, also hampering combat effectiveness.

So biologically, it would make sense for Tau to have less BS then guardsmen simply due to their slow pupil dilation

Hashbeth wrote:A Note on Tau pupil dilation:
The pupil dilates in response to an emotional stimuli/focus on an important object. This focus occurs relatively quickly in humans.

The slow dilation would mean that the Tau would actually have difficulty focusing in on a target that had entered their field of vision with the same speed as a guardsman.

The dilation speed also means that, when exposed to different light saturations, the tau have a more difficult time adjusting (i.e. going from low-saturation light to high-saturation light and vice versa).

Both of these can occur often in combat. Focusing on a fast moving target/target in a new line of vision is terribly important. Even a few centi-seconds delay can result in a significant lack of efficiency. The same with light saturation, as a single burst from a shell near a fire warrior squad would render it unable to adjust from the light for a short period, also hampering combat effectiveness.

So biologically, it would make sense for Tau to have less BS then guardsmen simply due to their slow pupil dilation

That would mean they take slower shots, not less accurate shots. Given how Pusle Rifles fire that makes a world of sense. Tau don't zing off machine gun rounds unless they use Pulse Carbines, which they do infact use at a much closer range.

Hashbeth wrote:A Note on Tau pupil dilation:
The pupil dilates in response to an emotional stimuli/focus on an important object. This focus occurs relatively quickly in humans.

The slow dilation would mean that the Tau would actually have difficulty focusing in on a target that had entered their field of vision with the same speed as a guardsman.

The dilation speed also means that, when exposed to different light saturations, the tau have a more difficult time adjusting (i.e. going from low-saturation light to high-saturation light and vice versa).

Both of these can occur often in combat. Focusing on a fast moving target/target in a new line of vision is terribly important. Even a few centi-seconds delay can result in a significant lack of efficiency. The same with light saturation, as a single burst from a shell near a fire warrior squad would render it unable to adjust from the light for a short period, also hampering combat effectiveness.

So biologically, it would make sense for Tau to have less BS then guardsmen simply due to their slow pupil dilation

That effect is negated by their helmet.

As someone ignorant of this effect, how is this done? Do they have a direct occular implant? Even if their helmet displays it via spectrum, as far as I know, aside from direct occular implant or an artificial pupil, there is no way to deal with this effect in a similar manner.

Also, on the 21h of training thing. Consistent? the race can survive at 3hours of rest cycle? Normal functioing nero-centers need more than that. Perhaps they are bad shots because they haven't had proper rest. Either that, or you are grossly oversimplifying the 21hours active training/combat in a lifespan.

Hashbeth wrote:As someone ignorant of this effect, how is this done? Do they have a direct occular implant? Even if their helmet displays it via spectrum, as far as I know, aside from direct occular implant or an artificial pupil, there is no way to deal with this effect in a similar manner.

Also, on the 21h of training thing. Consistent? the race can survive at 3hours of rest cycle? Normal functioing nero-centers need more than that. Perhaps they are bad shots because they haven't had proper rest. Either that, or you are grossly oversimplifying the 21hours active training/combat in a lifespan.

It says in the Tau codex that they sleep up to 3 hours a day.

And through a combination of lense polarisation, target tracking and neural interface the effects are negated. Eyes can focus much more easily upon a glowing dot written upon their retina then a distant smudge upon the horizon

Training, while important, doesn't necessarily capture the essence of the Tau to me. What I like about them is how un-40K they are. They are a young, optimistic race with this fantastic explosion of growth and technological development, and they're hopeful and expanding and they don't have much of a dark side (yet). I don't necessarily want my Tau being super trained warriors that can kill 20 men where they stand with a sharp rock. I'm okay with them being physiologically and martially inferior, but to me the fair compensation for that would be a better stat line on Pulse Rifles / Carbines.

While technology props up the IoM (and a number of other races for that matter), I think it does moreso for the Tau. That's why I like them.

Hashbeth wrote:As someone ignorant of this effect, how is this done? Do they have a direct occular implant? Even if their helmet displays it via spectrum, as far as I know, aside from direct occular implant or an artificial pupil, there is no way to deal with this effect in a similar manner.

Also, on the 21h of training thing. Consistent? the race can survive at 3hours of rest cycle? Normal functioing nero-centers need more than that. Perhaps they are bad shots because they haven't had proper rest. Either that, or you are grossly oversimplifying the 21hours active training/combat in a lifespan.

So we should give pillows and teddy bears to the tau.

You need to also consider that an increased spectrum of visability doesn't mean you have better vision.


Birds are able to see infrared light. dispite this, many birds have little to no night vision capabilities.


a broader spectrum of visability might actually mean you are less sensitive to light levels and need a broader visable spectrum to compensate.

Grey Templar wrote:You need to also consider that an increased spectrum of visability doesn't mean you have better vision.


Birds are able to see infrared light. dispite this, many birds have little to no night vision capabilities.


a broader spectrum of visability might actually mean you are less sensitive to light levels and need a broader visable spectrum to compensate.

'

^no.

Tetrachromacy is not a handicap.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:You need to also consider that an increased spectrum of visability doesn't mean you have better vision.


Birds are able to see infrared light. dispite this, many birds have little to no night vision capabilities.


a broader spectrum of visability might actually mean you are less sensitive to light levels and need a broader visable spectrum to compensate.

'

^no.

Tetrachromacy is not a handicap.

Is it good though? Like what would you use it for?