Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

1/5 light speed? Man...long long trip

Hashbeth wrote:Well either way, -60c is not livable for a society from a hot clime, not without major shelter. And in that case, it could be a rock with domes on it.

As for speed travel, how do the tau FTL, exactly? I've never quite understood it.

They have the psychic Nicassar lead them a short way into the warp, then they leave before daemons attack due to no Gellar Fields.

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB1l9KKILzg

They swim a few meter (lightyears) then jump out (real space) and go back in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hashbeth wrote:1/5 light speed? Man...long long trip

No, 1/5 Imperial Warp travel, still many times the SoL

But still quite slow, as the Imperial ship travel rate is also...kinda slow.

Anyway, though, back to BS3.

Maybe using a railgun horizontally is an issue? Really, they're best for long range ballistic assaults. If you use one horizontally, then you're wasting energy. And that is bad. It's like...war littering

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The codex directly states it is 1/5th the speed. No guessing required.

Tau Empire? On what page?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Hashbeth wrote:Well either way, -60c is not livable for a society from a hot clime, not without major shelter. And in that case, it could be a rock with domes on it.

As for speed travel, how do the tau FTL, exactly? I've never quite understood it.

They have the psychic Nicassar lead them a short way into the warp, then they leave before daemons attack due to no Gellar Fields.

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB1l9KKILzg

They swim a few meter (lightyears) then jump out (real space) and go back in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hashbeth wrote:1/5 light speed? Man...long long trip

No, 1/5 Imperial Warp travel, still many times the SoL

Do you have any citations for this Nicassar theory? AFAIK they actually utilize subluminal travel and avoid the imaterium. They may even use generational ships they are so slow.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Hashbeth wrote:Well either way, -60c is not livable for a society from a hot clime, not without major shelter. And in that case, it could be a rock with domes on it.

As for speed travel, how do the tau FTL, exactly? I've never quite understood it.

They have the psychic Nicassar lead them a short way into the warp, then they leave before daemons attack due to no Gellar Fields.

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB1l9KKILzg

They swim a few meter (lightyears) then jump out (real space) and go back in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hashbeth wrote:1/5 light speed? Man...long long trip

No, 1/5 Imperial Warp travel, still many times the SoL

Do you have any citations for this Nicassar theory? AFAIK they actually utilize subluminal travel and avoid the imaterium. They may even use generational ships they are so slow.

Where are the citations for your claims?

I may be partly responsible, but what does FTL have to do with BS3? Maybe we should start a tau ftl thread?

The Nicassar are telekinetic - they use themselves to move the ships like sublight engines. Psykers in 40k aren't just 'psychic', they have specific talents. For example, the Emperor is claimed to be the most potent psyker who has ever lived, but he did not posess the talent of farsight.

'Guiding' a ship through the warp is done by ustilising a specifically designed talent in the Navigators to see the Astronomican - basically using it as a point of reference for distance, which is why even with guidance, warp travel is risky. It can be obscured.

Nothing in the fluff has even hinted at the Nicassar having a talent to utilize anything as a point of reference to make warp travel in any way reliable.

Hashbeth wrote:But still quite slow, as the Imperial ship travel rate is also...kinda slow.

Imperial Warp travel isn't all that slow. in the time it takes the Tau to cross their empire from one end to the other, an Imperial Fleet could have left Terra for Ultramar, arrived and started whatever they are going there for. Humans also live longer then the Tau so they actually get even more advantage out of their faster method of travel.

Hashbeth wrote:
Maybe using a railgun horizontally is an issue? Really, they're best for long range ballistic assaults. If you use one horizontally, then you're wasting energy. And that is bad. It's like...war littering

Horizonal vs Vertical isn't going to change much. While they do use a ballistic trajectory, its so shallow that it takes a long time for the slug to drop any distance. Current Railgun testing is talking about weapons with ranges in the 250 mile range. nothing prevents you from leveling the gun and firing direct. this is certaintly preferable if the target is in a certain distance, it could take far longer for a ballistically fired projectile to reach its target then one fired directly in some cases. thats the main principal with the "Time on Target" tactic of bombardment. you fire shells at increasingly lower angles so that every shell lands simultaniously. the first shells fired are in the air longer.

I could toss the rock towards you at a 20 degree angle, or a 70 degree angle. the 20 degree angle toss will probably reach you first(just randomly named angles there, not mathamatically sound)

That's true, but for the rail gun, the energy in mega-joules required to launch the projectile at speed is immense. You should attempt to maximize benefit (and the further you fire from, given the rail-guns high ballistic accuracy, the less danger you have to be in, especially if fire-warriors are engaged in front of you).

And time on target is effective, but rounds used in ToT are often normal incindiary/high explosive, and do not require massive Mega-joule power-spikes.

Uhhhh...I believe that's why those Tau weapons have such long ranges?

Yes...but they still fire them at less efficient trajectories. If you can fire a rail gun over miles, why are they on the battlefield?

The 16 MJ cannon, rail-gun, currently being built by the navy (there is an 8mj prototype) has a range of 100 nautical miles+. I'm sure the tau have better technology. Why not keep them super-long range artillery, rather than sticking them on tanks, where they are less efficient?

Firing a Railgun over long distances at a moving target could be tricky. its not like an artillery shell where you just need to be within X meters of the target. a Railgun, solid shot, fired at a tank needs to hit the actual tank.

a flechette round is less difficult, but its still a precision weapon.


an informed target, or one in an urban battlefield, could simply keep moving and stay safe. and then there is vertical cover.

Because it fills a tactical gap that the Tau have? It is always desirable to field both kinetic energy weapons AND directed energy weapons AND chemical energy weapons. It allows you to remain flexible in the operational environment and meet changing battlefield needs. (more dakka, so to speak)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Firing a Railgun over long distances at a moving target could be tricky. its not like an artillery shell where you just need to be within X meters of the target. a Railgun, solid shot, fired at a tank needs to hit the actual tank.

a flechette round is less difficult, but its still a precision weapon.


an informed target, or one in an urban battlefield, could simply keep moving and stay safe. and then there is vertical cover.

Well, for scale comparison, a 2.75 inch flechette rocket (look them up) can cover a football field in foot long metal darts. Not exactly requiring precision there...

Besides, traditional flechette weapons are AP not AT

Actually, a rail-gun doesn't need to hit the tank. They are quite explosive. They actually explode with greater force than many incendiary/high explosive rounds, as they amass RIDICULOUS amounts of kinetic energy. In fact, light armor anti-aircraft/personnel (including those in unarmored buildings) rail-rounds are designed to break open before impact, and rain shrapnel (nail-like projectiles) on a target area, killing soft targets, destroying aircraft, and wiping out light vehicles. Each one hits causing a small explosion.

Think of it like a controlled meteor...fired from a cannon. Fired so fast it lights the air on fire behind it from friction. Yeah...they are awesome

Regarding the speed of Tau ships, their BFG suplement notices that the old explorer class reaches speeds of up to 1/5 of standard Imperial warpspeed while the more modern Merchant class
reaches up to 1/3 of the standard imperial warpspeed. It can be speculated that even more modern designs reach even higher speeds, but i know of no fluff which would support such a claim.

It's not speed so much as range. Extremely short distances compared to Imperial Warp jumps, hence why they're clustered in such a small area of space. The Kroot have Warp technology and navigators of some kind, but obviously refuse to give the Tau their technology. Demiurg must also have some form of FTL, which they also have not shared. Nicassar are slow, and are towed by Tau ships for this reason. They're used as explorers that take years to travel any real distances.

few pages back but as directly adressed :

im2randomghgh wrote:
I am not the one who came up with the idea of Shadowsun at BS7, someone did that near the beginning, I am just saying that on the TT it would be VERY helpful, make Shadowsun worth using, and though it would be unlikely Shadowsun is that skilled, it is vaguely plausible, so I am holding on.

The point stays, only elves got high natural BS.
Certainly, craftworlders could make an argument why they are left behind their darker cousins.
Necrons are just tech, so if tech improves BS they should be really godlike then?
Nids improve and their hyper-evolution may allow to raise their BS stats, no?
In both cases, neither tech nor biology meant an army got high BS. So natural BS has to be closer to the basic 3 in general.

Tau are about upgrades, but I agree with Janthkin there will be limits.
One of the limiting factors be game balance, as stated when Tau were designed and half a page spent on balancing of the suits. ( WD )
The other factor is the common BS 5, if most armies are given that for HQ's its unlikely a 7 is coming her way.
The next one is the age of the codex. Changes will affect the role of her, not the statline.

im2randomghgh wrote: How about you? what's your faction?

Did I post at dakka sometimes? shouldn't be a secret where I put my money on.

im2randomghgh wrote: If a hero unit from it who is kinds gimpy had a chance to actually become decent, would you take it?

There is a price to pay.
I'd rather have a usable hero unit with believable fluff than "he who shall not be named" pimping said hero to ridiculous levels.
The theme and the balance also got more influence at what specific characters/units may become.
Without the overall theme and the design philosophy of the edition present then, shots at the statline are at best guessing in the dark.
Tau are not yet in 5th ed, and could land in 6th possibly.

A few comments about the last few pages:

The Tau Empire is situated in a small but unusually densely populated area of the galaxy with an abnormally high number of habitable worlds. (Codex: Tau Empire, first few pages).

Nicassar are stated to use their telekinetic powers to move their flotillas through space. They are fairly quick for in-system movement but slow on the "warp jump" type of speed scale. BFG mentions how only a portion of the population remains out of stasis when they cross a void in space (between systems) and sometimes hitch a ride with Tau fleets.

The problem these discussions always run into is separating fluff from the necessity of game balance. They supposedly have poor distance vision but have the longest range troop weapon in the game that does more damage than a bolter. They have the strongest long-range anti-tank weapon in the game but people seem to think they're lucky if they can take down a weak titan. They're extemely weak in close combat but their veteran sergeants don't shoot any better than a 17 year old space marine scout. They pilot advanced battlesuits and the codex says they are packed with sensor and targeting equipment but still shot at BS3.

It all boils down to fluff vs. game balance with a bit of codex creep thrown in for good measure. It's been said before but I'll say it again. Basic firewarriors are fine at BS3 with a point reduction and come equipped with grenades. I think some sort of drone-based special weapon system wouldn't be a bad idea either to at least give them some flexibility but I'm not going to hold my breath. Elite and Pathfinders need to be BS4 to denote experience and specialized training/equipment. I say pathfinders because it's sad that the only thing that can make firing more effective in the Tau army (markerlights) misses half of the time and is too expensive to take an adequate number to be useful and they die just as fast as everything else in the army which makes them less useful than IG orders after turn 2 of the game.

There were some rumors going around a couple of months ago that Demiurg might make an appearance in the next codex. That'd be great and the conspiracy theorist in me thinks it might be why Mantic's coming out with their squat line (probably not but it'd be ironic).

-Loki- wrote:The Nicassar are telekinetic - they use themselves to move the ships like sublight engines. Psykers in 40k aren't just 'psychic', they have specific talents. For example, the Emperor is claimed to be the most potent psyker who has ever lived, but he did not posess the talent of farsight.

'Guiding' a ship through the warp is done by ustilising a specifically designed talent in the Navigators to see the Astronomican - basically using it as a point of reference for distance, which is why even with guidance, warp travel is risky. It can be obscured.

Nothing in the fluff has even hinted at the Nicassar having a talent to utilize anything as a point of reference to make warp travel in any way reliable.

Actually, he did. He already knew what Garro had to say before he arrived.