Something I noticed about Tau...

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**iproxtaco**

Sounds about right, although the Tau BS should be a bit higher. Make the BS increase with rank, starting at base 3 for the lowest, going up to 5-6 for the highest.

**nomotog**

iproxtaco wrote:Sounds about right, although the Tau BS should be a bit higher. Make the BS increase with rank, starting at base 3 for the lowest, going up to 5-6 for the highest.

What stick out at me was that the tau are chronically low bs The only ones with more then 3 are the spotter (from the sniper team he has a pistol) elite battlesuits (not broadsides) and the hammer head. Also only the battle sutis and actually higher BS. The others where all target lock bonuses. They also have two BS 2 drones.

The IG has a lot of BS 4 troops. veterans, storm troopers different Sargent and only one BS 2 troop the conscript.

SMs. They are all BS 4. Except one that was 5 and one that was 3. I didn't add any of the off shoot SMs, but I notice a lot of blood angels at 5.

Eldar where mostly4 and 5 with one stand out at 7.

Orks all twos except some grechen at 3. Bo little guys.

**Kilkrazy**

It's a game balance factor. The base Tau weapon being S5 makes them effectively BS4 when shooting at anything except vehicles.

**Brother Coa**

And table rules are totally different then official fluff ( 1 Marine on table is not that much worth, 1 marine in fluff is = 300 Guardsman ).

**Justus**

shasolenzabi wrote:They have been avoiding making teenaged SM players cry by limiting the aliens

Eldar even though they paid 50pts for the 3 shot star cannons that could easily kill marines, got the price and shots reduced because Teeny Mariney's cried.

Tau Plasma rifles already started at 16pts and 1 S lower than Human Plasma, but also did not overheat,,,but Tau plasma could do nothing against AV13. Still, GW listened to the cries of Teeny Marineys and bumped the Tau Plasma to a full 20pts making it worth the price of 2 Marine plasma rifles with no change to the Tau weapon at all.

Improve the Tau stat lines and they will scream again at GW to make them more expensive or gimp something else so the less experienced teeny marineys can have an easy time getting that victory.

Codex creep has made SW/GK/BA all too simple a choice as they out fight Vanilla marines as it is unless the scenario and the vanilla player is a good tactician and his dice roll nice.

But there are too many things that make it almost impossible to stop like a charge of Thunder wolves for example. For the 10pts a FW is I say that they are over costed, they dropped a IG down to basically 5pts a man, and they can easily drop Tau FW's down a few points as the kit is so easily negated at times as to be laughable.

1) They have carapace, A) so do others and those armies also have a lot of AP4, negating that carapace.

2) The Pulse rifle has the best range. A) with so many speedy units out there, it is easy to make that null and void, or tool up stuff to 2+ or 3+ making it hard to take down.

3) Tau are so shooty, A) True, but with IG stat, they hit 50% most times, and then in CC they get eaten up pretty fast, unless one has good luck with the die rolls or the enemy whiffs with power weapons.

Firewarriors have 2 choice for starting the game, footslogging, or a devilfish. Stormies have Grav chutes, valkyries, and chimeras as well as infiltration and outflanking. PLUS they have that BS4 even if fresh out of the schola progenium.

and they come with Krak and frag as part of their kit along with a shorter ranged gun but it is AP3 afterall.
I would say 7pts would be more apt for FW teams.

Let's not forget Tau is a third edition codex amongst a sea of fifth. Things WILL be overcosted compared to other armies. If you blast back to the past and cry about Tau being UP during the Fish of Fury era you would be welcomed with screams of heresy.

You can say it's all about Power Armor, a well played Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Guard army still can EASILY steamroll marines. Xenos are powerful too, they just aren't updated as often. I've seen Dark Eldar eat up all flavors of marines at my FLGS

**im2randomghgh**

Brother Coa wrote:

And if Spartans are "the most elite fighting force in human history" what is then French Foreign Legion, British SAS, US SEAL's.... the uber-elite fighting force in human history?

Seals train for a few years, and learn survival, tactics and combat. Spartans are trained from age six and denied citizenship unless they meet the standards. The small, weak babies are killed shortly after birth. They spend their youths learn to kill, rather than socializing and watching T.V. like seals.

Even the SAS, head and shoulders...and chest and waist above the other modern fighting forces never have to endure anything even vaguely similar to what spartans go through for the right to be citizens.

They even had the females performing rigourous athletics so as to pass on superior traits to their children.

Spartans, in their teenage years, are set loose to terrorize entire populations of helots, and expected to steal and kill to survive.

I haven't, and don't intend to watch the movie, and you can search any of this up if you'd like.

And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

And to whoever said the Tanith are superior to astartes, please check your fanboidom at the door.

**iproxtaco**

They're very much comparable. A guardsmen makes up for his training in experience, like I said, gaining more years in battle than a Tau will spend alive. Firewarrior's advantages are in technology and not in training.

**Kanluwen**

im2randomghgh wrote:
And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

You are REALLY underestimating the "standard Guardsman".

Many of your "standard Guardsmen" in terms of regiments drawn up from Hive Worlds are former Hive Gangers. That's some 'combat experience' right there.

**Rocky1**

Eldar where mostly4 and 5 with one stand out at 7

Only 2 eldar models have bs 5- the exarchs and the farseer-The latter a HQ and the former an eldar who has centuries of experience in warfare.Only the phoenix lords have bs 7 and they all come in at around 200 pts and have been around for thousands of years. And our bs 4 unit have all trained for more years than most battlesuit commanders. Also most of our unit are infact bs 3.

**RogalDorn69**

Gaurdsmen are real men, your paying for a man on the field and not a blue skin thingy.

**im2randomghgh**

iproxtaco wrote:They're very much comparable. A guardsmen makes up for his training in experience, like I said, gaining more years in battle than a Tau will spend alive. Firewarrior's advantages are in technology and not in training.

He does not spend more years in battle than Tau do alive. How many line infantry Guardsmen have you seen who are grandfathers? Because you seem to think an average guardsman will keep fighting till he's sixty, even though about 50% of Guardsmen die in their first battle. And unlike humans who would be beginning to have stiff joints and arthritis (all diseases commonly associated with middle age actually), experienced FW basically get Something on par with terminator armour. Tau are hardly laid back, sitting on their haunches, ignorant of war. They have considerable populations of greenskins in their cluster, as well as having encountered one of the most dangerous tyranid fleets ever encounterd-it was small because it spent it's biomass making better Gaunts who could adapt to weapons with a few hours of combat. Hyperlethal.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

You are REALLY underestimating the "standard Guardsman".

Many of your "standard Guardsmen" in terms of regiments drawn up from Hive Worlds are former Hive Gangers. That's some 'combat experience' right there.

Any Guardsman who fights like a Hive ganger rather than using the combat skills taught to them is almost definitely being put up against a wall by a commissar.

**Kanluwen**

im2randomghgh wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:They're very much comparable. A guardsmen makes up for his training in experience, like I said, gaining more years in battle than a Tau will spend alive. Firewarrior's advantages are in technology and not in training.

He does not spend more years in battle than Tau do alive. How many line infantry Guardsmen have you seen who are grandfathers? Because you seem to think an average guardsman will keep fighting till he's sixty, even though about 50% of Guardsmen die in their first battle. And unlike humans who would be beginning to have stiff joints and arthritis (all diseases commonly associated with middle age actually), experienced FW basically get Something on par with terminator armour. Tau are hardly laid back, sitting on their haunches, ignorant of war. They have considerable populations of greenskins in their cluster, as well as having encountered one of the most dangerous tyranid fleets ever encountered-it was small because it spent it's biomass making better Gaunts who could adapt to weapons with a few hours of combat. Hyperlethal.

You're aware that your 'average' humans will be living to 80 or 90, yes?
And that the Imperium has such a thing as "juvenat treatments" which extend the lifespans and fighting capabilities of those 'average' humans to around 200 years, yeah?

Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

You are REALLY underestimating the "standard Guardsman".

Many of your "standard Guardsmen" in terms of regiments drawn up from Hive Worlds are former Hive Gangers. That's some 'combat experience' right there.

Any Guardsman who fights like a Hive ganger rather than using the combat skills taught to them is almost definitely being put up against a wall by a commissar.

You mean the combat skills that are taught to them which commonly are those exact same skills that the Hive Gangers already possessed?

The smart commissars don't put people up against the wall for being effective in combat, especially in a warzone.
The only times you'd see that crap done is when the Commissar is trying to set an 'example' and the regiment is withdrawn from the theater.

**im2randomghgh**

@ Kanluwen, since when do standard guardsmen get juvenants? Never. And also, the chances of surviving 200 years of war are so infinitely small it is not even worth thinking about. Most astartes don't manage that, and they're each worth 100 humans.

**Psienesis**

Off topic but, I would just like to say that I hope one day, in the far future, the US and/or the countries of Western Europe get a kick-ass movie and graphic novel series like Sparta has to make us appear to be the greatest things since sliced bread to whatever it is that countries are calling themselves in the year 2211.

The... degree of creative revisionism that has gone into making the Spartans into a commodity good safe for public consumption is absolutely fascinating.

On topic: Since the stats of the table-top game are trapped in a scale of 1-10, each successive rank is exponentially better than the one before it. While Tau may be better shots than the average Guardsman, it's not ten times better, which is what a BS4 stat shows in comparison to a BS3 stat. Thus, even if the Tau is twice as good as the Guardsman, it still gets BS3.

**Kanluwen**

im2randomghgh wrote:@ Kanluwen, since when do standard guardsmen get juvenants? Never.

Since when do Tau live past 40?
Never. Tau are combat-ineffective within 30 years--and they don't start serving in combat until they're around 14-15 years old.
So that's 15 years they're effectively nothing.

And also, the chances of surviving 200 years of war are so infinitely small it is not even worth thinking about. Most astartes don't manage that, and they're each worth 100 humans.

Most Captains are pushing 300 years, so that's garbage.
Hell, most Astartes are becoming full Battle-Brothers by 40 years old.

**im2randomghgh**

Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:@ Kanluwen, since when do standard guardsmen get juvenants? Never.

Since when do Tau live past 40?
Never. Tau are combat-ineffective within 30 years--and they don't start serving in combat until they're around 14-15 years old.
So that's 15 years they're effectively nothing.

And also, the chances of surviving 200 years of war are so infinitely small it is not even worth thinking about. Most astartes don't manage that, and they're each worth 100 humans.

Most Captains are pushing 300 years, so that's garbage.
Hell, most Astartes are becoming full Battle-Brothers by 40 years old.

SM who reach 300 are captains because they're 300.

And Tau are ready for service at around 8-10, and don't leave the service till they're dead or nearly so, since the older Tau are wearing battlesuits and physical fitness has no effect on that.

SO that's about thirty years of service, compared to the one battle of service most guardsmen put in. Plus it's 21h a day.

And they'd be full battle brothers by 30. Their time in the scouts is effectively them waiting for the implants to reshape their bodies.

**nomotog**

Rocky1 wrote:
Eldar where mostly4 and 5 with one stand out at 7

Only 2 eldar models have bs 5- the exarchs and the farseer-The latter a HQ and the former an eldar who has centuries of experience in warfare.Only the phoenix lords have bs 7 and they all come in at around 200 pts and have been around for thousands of years. And our bs 4 unit have all trained for more years than most battlesuit commanders. Also most of our unit are infact bs 3.

I wasn't weighing anything by points or anything. Just looking at what the average BS was. Only 5 are listed with 3 BS. Everything else if 4 and up. There are three at 5 One at 6 and one at 7.

Not saying it's unbalanced or that eldar don't deserve high BS. They are just up to be compared to. As what seems to be the highest BS army, they are a good compare point.

**Kanluwen**

im2randomghgh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:@ Kanluwen, since when do standard guardsmen get juvenants? Never.

Since when do Tau live past 40?
Never. Tau are combat-ineffective within 30 years--and they don't start serving in combat until they're around 14-15 years old.
So that's 15 years they're effectively nothing.

And also, the chances of surviving 200 years of war are so infinitely small it is not even worth thinking about. Most astartes don't manage that, and they're each worth 100 humans.

Most Captains are pushing 300 years, so that's garbage.
Hell, most Astartes are becoming full Battle-Brothers by 40 years old.

SM who reach 300 are captains because they're 300.

And because they've been waging war for centuries, earned countless battle honors, demonstrated tactical prowess, etc etc etc.

And Tau are ready for service at around 8-10, and don't leave the service till they're dead or nearly so, since the older Tau are wearing battlesuits and physical fitness has no effect on that.

Cite a source. Nowhere have we seen that they're "ready for service at around 8-10", with most conservative estimates being 15.
By contrast, we have actually seen that Cadians are actually serving on the frontlines in the Whiteshields by age 13 and becoming full Guardsmen by 18.

And by the by, while physical fitness 'has no effect on that'--Tau who pilot Crisis Suits are said to be 'twitchy' when outside of their suits. They suffer a mental decline, and they have to be pulled by around 35. Those are the Fire Caste who tend to serve on advisory councils to Ethereals.

SO that's about thirty years of service, compared to the one battle of service most guardsmen put in.

What? Most Guardsmen have far, far, far more than "one battle of service" under their belt.

Plus it's 21h a day.

What does 21 hours a day have to do with anything? Are you trying to cite the book "Fifteen Hours" as an example here?

Because that "Fifteen Hours" lifespan was for 'reinforcements' being dropped onto an Ork held planet that the Imperium still believed under their control.

And they'd be full battle brothers by 30. Their time in the scouts is effectively them waiting for the implants to reshape their bodies.

Actually, no. It's not.

Their "time in the Scouts", depending on the Chapter, is them waiting for them to be deemed 'worthy' of entering the ranks of the Battle-Brothers. In some cases, you'll have Veteran Sergeants who've been through the entire thing, ascended to being a full Battle-Brother and choose to go back to being a Scout. Naaman of the Dark Angels and Telion of the Ultramarines are two notable examples of this.

**Brother Coa**

im2randomghgh wrote:
And to whoever said the Tanith are superior to astartes, please check your fanboidom at the door.

Didn't Gaunt beat the crap of Khorne Beserker?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:@ Kanluwen, since when do standard guardsmen get juvenants? Never. And also, the chances of surviving 200 years of war are so infinitely small it is not even worth thinking about. Most astartes don't manage that, and they're each worth 100 humans.

300.

**shasolenzabi**

Justus wrote:
Let's not forget Tau is a third edition codex amongst a sea of fifth. Things WILL be overcosted compared to other armies. If you blast back to the past and cry about Tau being UP during the Fish of Fury era you would be welcomed with screams of heresy.

You can say it's all about Power Armor, a well played Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Guard army still can EASILY steamroll marines. Xenos are powerful too, they just aren't updated as often. I've seen Dark Eldar eat up all flavors of marines at my FLGS

Tau Empire is a 4th/5th ed codex as it had rules that made it to the 5th ed as they were experimenting with it. Codex: Tau was 3rd ed. The cost of the FW's stayed the same when they made the 4th/5th jump, but the human armies have seen many reductions as did the orks when they finally got their codex updated.

I know, I played FoF Tau during the times of 3rd/4th ed. I ran rampant over my opponents with the new style of fluid armor combat. The Eldar could do it even better with their speedy wave-serpents and falcons. True, new codex creep gave the DE a massive boost, while many Nid players are upset with the nerf bat of Cruddace making first the IG and then the Nids 'dex so that they could accuse him of fixing it for the IG over nids.

If you look in signature, I happen to play both human and xenos armies. Now that Xenos armies are looking cooler maybe there will be more sales of those armies and we shall see less over-abundance of Marines

**Void__Dragon**

Brother Coa wrote:300.

Where are you getting this number from?

**purplefood**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:300.

Where are you getting this number from?

He made it up.

**Brother Coa**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:300.

Where are you getting this number from?

Rogal Dorn: "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops"

You are right, they worth even more...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:
He made it up.

Ha ha ha....very funny

But to be serious, isn't the comon knowledge that 1 Space Marine = 300 Huamns? That's the first thing I heard about them...

**Retribution**

I must have missed the fluff piece that said the average imperial guardsmen is a 200 year old version of rambo; ah, the things you learn on the internet

**Kanluwen**

Brother Coa wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:300.

Where are you getting this number from?

Rogal Dorn: "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops"

You are right, they worth even more...

Your math is really, really, really, really off.

"A hundred Space Marines" equaling "a thousand other troops" means a ratio of 1 Space Marine for every 10 of those "other troops".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Retribution wrote:I must have missed the fluff piece that said the average imperial guardsmen is a 200 year old version of rambo; ah, the things you learn on the internet

You need to read better before commenting.

Your "average Imperial Guardsman" is going to be 35 years of age, having served since they were 16 in a 'Conscript' unit and then becoming a full Guardsman after at least two campaigns and a minimum age of 18.

The "200 year olds" are usually going to be the commanders, or in some potential cases Commissars.

**im2randomghgh**

Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:@ Kanluwen, since when do standard guardsmen get juvenants? Never.

Since when do Tau live past 40?
Never. Tau are combat-ineffective within 30 years--and they don't start serving in combat until they're around 14-15 years old.
So that's 15 years they're effectively nothing.

And also, the chances of surviving 200 years of war are so infinitely small it is not even worth thinking about. Most astartes don't manage that, and they're each worth 100 humans.

Most Captains are pushing 300 years, so that's garbage.
Hell, most Astartes are becoming full Battle-Brothers by 40 years old.

SM who reach 300 are captains because they're 300.

And because they've been waging war for centuries, earned countless battle honors, demonstrated tactical prowess, etc etc etc.

And Tau are ready for service at around 8-10, and don't leave the service till they're dead or nearly so, since the older Tau are wearing battlesuits and physical fitness has no effect on that.

Cite a source. Nowhere have we seen that they're "ready for service at around 8-10", with most conservative estimates being 15.
By contrast, we have actually seen that Cadians are actually serving on the frontlines in the Whiteshields by age 13 and becoming full Guardsmen by 18.

And by the by, while physical fitness 'has no effect on that'--Tau who pilot Crisis Suits are said to be 'twitchy' when outside of their suits. They suffer a mental decline, and they have to be pulled by around 35. Those are the Fire Caste who tend to serve on advisory councils to Ethereals.

SO that's about thirty years of service, compared to the one battle of service most guardsmen put in.

What? Most Guardsmen have far, far, far more than "one battle of service" under their belt.

Plus it's 21h a day.

What does 21 hours a day have to do with anything? Are you trying to cite the book "Fifteen Hours" as an example here?

Because that "Fifteen Hours" lifespan was for 'reinforcements' being dropped onto an Ork held planet that the Imperium still believed under their control.

And they'd be full battle brothers by 30. Their time in the scouts is effectively them waiting for the implants to reshape their bodies.

Actually, no. It's not.

Their "time in the Scouts", depending on the Chapter, is them waiting for them to be deemed 'worthy' of entering the ranks of the Battle-Brothers. In some cases, you'll have Veteran Sergeants who've been through the entire thing, ascended to being a full Battle-Brother and choose to go back to being a Scout. Naaman of the Dark Angels and Telion of the Ultramarines are two notable examples of this.

1. If they've survived 300 years of war, chances are they have battle honours and tactical acumen.

2. I think (don't quote me on this, might be wrong) that it was mentioned in xenology. Also, the twitchiness outside of their suits is only to be expected. The pilots of knights/ princeps of titans undergo the same thing, but they are NEVER "pulled" from their positions, they either choose to serve on the frontlines till they die (the usual option) or they are given the opportunity to retire once they become Shas'O. Linking your mind to a body many times more powerful than yours will always be a shock and will always affect the pilot, but going back to your normal body? Only space marines seem unaffected by this.

3. No. They are almost always pushed into the meatgrinder, and even battles that go well for them almost always have casualties either 5 or 6 figures. Their solutions to superior enemies (all enemies) is to drown it in human blood.

4. 21h as in 40 years of life for a tau has as many waking hours as fifty years for a human, at least.

5. I wasn't talking about veteran sergeants -_-

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The average guardsman would not be thrity five. Look at it this way: 1 million troops from Brimlock were brought into the Ellinor crusade. About 900,000 died in the first campaign. 90,000 in the next, and 9,000 in the next, or so the book describes. The middle aged guardsmen who made up the 1,000 men of hte Brimlock 11th were all that remained of the million(s) of troops who left brimlock. 1 in every 1,000 guardsmen made it to middle age, and they seem to be a fairly typical regiment.

Also, the most commonly used space marine to guardsmen ratio (and the one that makes the most sense) is 100:1

**BeefCakeSoup**

Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
And while I acknowledge that stormtrooper training is superior, and that their melee training sets them apart as superior to FW, the point still stands that the fire caste, bred for war, are incomparable to standard guardsmen.

You are REALLY underestimating the "standard Guardsman".

Many of your "standard Guardsmen" in terms of regiments drawn up from Hive Worlds are former Hive Gangers. That's some 'combat experience' right there.

A Soldier taken from the day he/she is born being trained to use one weapon day/night without let-up is impressive. Then you factor in the Soldier is a fast learner who sleeps less then a human and obeys orders like a clone... what you have is a well oiled killer. These Soldiers are so dedicated to their efficiency and cause they take a machete and cut a wound across their chests to remind them they get back into the fight on pure willpower.

These Soldiers serve a lifetime, dedicated to the state and nothing, not even a personal life gets in the way of service to the state.

Armed with advanced armor and rifles and trained in a variety of complex hunting doctrines, they live a life of warfare until they die in service to their cause or retire into politics.

There is a group of Imperials who match this type of training and share a cultural mentality of service to the state, they are called Cadians. Essentially, the Tau Fire Warriors are all Cadian level Soldiers in comparison.

So I guess the only thing that is confusing, is why are these guys shooting like a Valhallan piece of cannon fodder?

**im2randomghgh**

^that

**Grey Templar**

Actually, the cannon fodder of the IG codex is BS2. they are called conscripts.

that is what an untrained human shoots like.

a trained guardsmen has BS3, just like a trained Fire Warrior.

**nomotog**

Grey Templar wrote:Actually, the cannon fodder of the IG codex is BS2. they are called conscripts.

that is what an untrained human shoots like.

a trained guardsmen has BS3, just like a trained Fire Warrior.

And a veteran guardsmen has BS4.