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But it's not necessarily a benefit. Especially given that hawks I believe, with incredible eyesight, but don't have full spectrum sight (i believe they only see in black and white?). However their main advantage is that they have incredible depth perception, and magnifying sight lenses (effecting pupils).

I think the main issue is overcoming pupil dilation, and the fact that consistent 21 hours of training for 30 some years is highly improbable.

You would be able to see colour and detail that humans wouldn't even register. Imagine-colours that are physically impossible for unaugmented humans to see.

Ok. now turn that acid trip into a + 1 to BS.

But that doesn't matter. What matters is if this increases combat effectiveness. Yes, you may see another color spectrum, but for combat, focus and the timing therein are greater factors in determining combat efficiency.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
1. The fact they use longer ranged weapons and train only with said weapons their entire life is proof enough these guys aren't the same as IG. Comparing the physical traits is pointless, a small man can outshoot a big muscled man with ease, why on earth would the size or strength of someone play into shooting. Muscle memory and time on a range are what make a grunt shoot like a champ, not being 10 feet tall and bench pressing 1000 lbs.

2. Their isn't an earlier age to train then the Tau start at, because from the moment they are born, the state owns them. When they can comprehend and obey, they are in the system for life. While Ethereal leadership is present there is no defection, no heretics, no anything except the greater good. Their isn't an equal in the Imperium to that kind of loyalty as the most powerful warmaster defecting proved. The only way it goes awry is when the Ethereal is killed off and no others are present to replace him/her.

1. I was merely pointing out the distinct lack of differences between Tau and Guardsmen, showing that there is no really discernible physical explanation for why the Tau would innately have better hand-eye coordination, or any other physical explanation to explain why they should have a higher BS than they currently do.

2. That's plenty true for a large number of Imperial Guard Regiments as well. There are plenty of Imperial Worlds where men are born into the service of the military, trained for it effectively from birth. Also, no traitors? No defection? What about Commander Farsight? He (hinted very strongly) effectively killed the Ethereals sent along with his force and basically went rogue, being written off as a traitor by the Empire.

And, with those points addressed, none of what you mentioned really point to the Tau being better trained or innate shots than their Imperial counterparts. Being part of an mind controlling, communist society does not make someone a better shot on the battlefield. Having a weapon with a longer range does not make someone a better shot on the battlefield. Training and experience does these things. As had been stated by several people in this thread, the Tau have a continuously progressing system of advancement for their military. The lowest tier of this progression, the normal fire warrior, has training, but generally not a veteran level of combat experience. I have seen nothing that suggests otherwise.

im2randomghgh wrote:

are you trolling? Tau have much shorter childhoods, they be training before most guardsmen-to-be were over 4' tall, midgets and ratlings notwithstanding.

And while the Death Korps and Cadians do induct fairly early, most IG are workers who are tithed out.

I am not trolling.

And that has what to do with what? Sure, scale things appropriately to account for the aging difference. A Tau fire warrior begins his training perhaps 4-5 years earlier than a human does... mostly because at the age of four or five most humans are still getting a handle on basic motor functions and verbal communication. There are plenty of Imperial Guard Regiments that start training their recruits by the time that they are between 8 and 10 years old, the equivalent age for a Tau to begin his training. The final product, the trained soldier on the battlefield, isn't much different in skill and ability, the calendar date is all that's really different.

Read my earlier post please. You people misunderstand training for its purposes. You think boot camp prepares you for combat. No, it prepares you so you can actually DO combat. Just because you've been taught ten different ways to approach an entrenched position more than your enemy, does not mean you can do it successfully. It simply means you know ten ways your enemy hadn't been taught during his training. What if your enemy has been fighting battles for the last twenty or so and has learned over the years how the eldar like to sneak up on you, and coincidentally, your doing the exact same thing that has been done to him twenty times already?

And keep in mind that even fire warriors are less aggressive and less suited for combat than humans are.

For a human, grabbing the neck of someone who has angered you and throttling them or stabbing them or punching them until they're dead is pretty natural, most people learn to resist such an urge, while the Tau have to learn to have such an urge first, because they by instinct loathe close combat.

Does nobody take into account that the guard armies GW intends people to use are the exceptionally good ones? You never see a box of guardsmen from random planet x its cadians, catachans or some other famous regiment that has lots of training and experience therefore it would make sense to have simillar skill to a tau whom has had lots of target practice. Also game balance, strength 5 makes up for low bs by making it easy to wound most models that arent crazy high toughness.

Those are pretty much standard guard units. That IS the Imperial Guard.


You're thinking of PDF if you want to think of really bad human infantry. Don't let moronic internet memes poison your view of the lore

I know but the ones were are intended to use are literally the best of the best. They would outdo any random planets guardsmen anytime.

Altzer wrote:I know but the ones were are intended to use are literally the best of the best. They would outdo any random planets guardsmen anytime.

Once inducted into the Guard, all of them are trained to roughly the same (rather high) standards, albeit with different tactics. You wouldn't ask Tallarn to do the same things you'd ask Cadians to do-- nor the other way around. Each planet's guardsmen have a different specialty. Some are heavy assault troops with extra flak armor, others are recon troops with lighter flak cloaks, and still others are siege troops or urban warfare grunts.

None of them are unskilled fodder unless they're conscripts, which are usually not really proper guard to begin with.

But I still would not expect some world that nobody has ever heard of to outdo tallarns or cadians GW writers would never have it

im2randomghgh wrote: (like spartans a.k.a. the most elite fighting force in human history)

You fail here.

Altzer wrote:But I still would not expect some world that nobody has ever heard of to outdo tallarns or cadians GW writers would never have it

That would be situational.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FuryTheBerserker wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: (like spartans a.k.a. the most elite fighting force in human history)

You fail here.

Agreed

Im all for D10. Far better in my opinion.

juraigamer wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they shouldn't. Giving the standard troops of an army BS4 is stupid.

I heard you never heard of most other armies in the game, that all have standard troops with BS 4.

Fire warriors train solely for ranged combat. From a young age, very young compared to human standards. This means they have something like 10 years of training under their belts normally.

Fire warrior equipment compensates for their eyesight deficiencies and also assists in targeting enemies.

In game terms, tau have absolutely no melee capability, were as guardsmen have the ability to do decent have have armor ignoring attacks in melee. Saying tau should only have bs 3 after all this is just saying I want to win against tau.

I think someone's missed the little conversation that came after that statement. I'm not going to repeat myself. Go back and read what I've posted, it explains what I meant a lot clearer.

Honestly I think this forum overestimates the professionalism/training of the Guard. The fluff GW presents clearly makes it out to be an army that uses weight of numbers and takes incredibly high casualties on a regular basis. Not everyone are Cadians/Catachans and they represent a small minority of Guardsmen.

Though I guess it depends on the Regiment more then anything. Cadians are going to be some of the best you have if not the best whereas worlds with 3/4 the population conscripted (or some BS number like that) will be utter gak.

Hashbeth wrote:But that doesn't matter. What matters is if this increases combat effectiveness. Yes, you may see another color spectrum, but for combat, focus and the timing therein are greater factors in determining combat efficiency.

As previously stated, they do not need this speed. They have powerful, slow firing guns (somewhere in the area of recoil-less rifle, but just slightly less), they line up their shots, and they use volley firing. It the enemy is close enough for speed to be a factor, then they are close enough that missing would be unlikely

im2randomghgh wrote:

Hashbeth wrote:But that doesn't matter. What matters is if this increases combat effectiveness. Yes, you may see another color spectrum, but for combat, focus and the timing therein are greater factors in determining combat efficiency.

As previously stated, they do not need this speed. They have powerful, slow firing guns (somewhere in the area of recoil-less rifle, but just slightly less), they line up their shots, and they use volley firing. It the enemy is close enough for speed to be a factor, then they are close enough that missing would be unlikely

Stop trying to piece together flimsy excuses. They need to be able to concentrate on individual fast moving targets just as much as the guard, and the Tau are obviously at a disadvantage.

Not even slightly.

And once again, you fail to realize this is MORE than compensated for by the targeting wetware in their helmets. SM would be much worse shots if they didn't have their targetting stuff.

im2randomghgh wrote:Not even slightly.

And once again, you fail to realize this is MORE than compensated for by the targeting wetware in their helmets. SM would be much worse shots if they didn't have their targetting stuff.

Source for this auto-reactive helmet they seemingly have. It'll have to be physically connected to them like Power Armour to be effective. Since its stupidly unlikely that this is the case, the Tau are at a disadvantage during any combat situation that isn't firing at slow moving waves of enemies.

IA III wrote:It is thought that the distinctive domed Tau combat helmet includes many different tactical systems. Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information and access to the command communications network for his unit. It is believed that the helmet also includes some form of digital visual relay uplink so that Tau commanders can see what each of their warriors is experiencing, but this remains uncomfirmed

Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Harriticus wrote:The fluff GW presents clearly makes it out to be an army that uses weight of numbers and takes incredibly high casualties on a regular basis. ....
whereas worlds with 3/4 the population conscripted (or some BS number like that) will be utter gak.

Cruddace made it possible to have billions of guard regiments. Thats where the questionable take on Guard stems from.
The common fluff isn't IG = chenkov.
Flaws of 5th ed fluff....

im2randomghgh wrote:

And once again, you fail to realize this is MORE than compensated for by the targeting wetware in their helmets.

So you admit you fail to realize this is 40k background, not 40k wishlisting?
Nothing in Tau codices explains their helmets hard,wet or whatever ware. May we see your claims backed up or do we have to watch another thread of missing published GW material filled in with " I believe" ?

Melissia wrote:And keep in mind that even fire warriors are less aggressive and less suited for combat than humans are.

For a human, grabbing the neck of someone who has angered you and throttling them or stabbing them or punching them until they're dead is pretty natural, most people learn to resist such an urge, while the Tau have to learn to have such an urge first, because they by instinct loathe close combat.

A fire warrior in there natural state is quite violent.

nomotog wrote:

Melissia wrote:And keep in mind that even fire warriors are less aggressive and less suited for combat than humans are.

For a human, grabbing the neck of someone who has angered you and throttling them or stabbing them or punching them until they're dead is pretty natural, most people learn to resist such an urge, while the Tau have to learn to have such an urge first, because they by instinct loathe close combat.

A fire warrior in there natural state is quite violent.

Negative.

A Tau in their natural state is quite violent.

The race nearly exterminated itself before the appearance of the Ethereals.

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Melissia wrote:And keep in mind that even fire warriors are less aggressive and less suited for combat than humans are.

For a human, grabbing the neck of someone who has angered you and throttling them or stabbing them or punching them until they're dead is pretty natural, most people learn to resist such an urge, while the Tau have to learn to have such an urge first, because they by instinct loathe close combat.

A fire warrior in there natural state is quite violent.

Negative.

A Tau in their natural state is quite violent.

The race nearly exterminated itself before the appearance of the Ethereals.

Ok well first of all. If all tau are violent, then fire warriors are violent. I was right and you agree with me.

Also reading the darkest age story again. It was an alliance of air and fire tau attacking a peaceful earth city who wanted peace.

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Melissia wrote:And keep in mind that even fire warriors are less aggressive and less suited for combat than humans are.

For a human, grabbing the neck of someone who has angered you and throttling them or stabbing them or punching them until they're dead is pretty natural, most people learn to resist such an urge, while the Tau have to learn to have such an urge first, because they by instinct loathe close combat.

A fire warrior in there natural state is quite violent.

Negative.

A Tau in their natural state is quite violent.

The race nearly exterminated itself before the appearance of the Ethereals.

Ok well first of all. If all tau are violent, then fire warriors are violent. I was right and you agree with me.

You were right in a kind of/sort of way.

Also reading the darkest age story again. It was an alliance of air and fire tau attacking a peaceful earth city who wanted peace.

Wars require two sides to be fighting.
The Earth Caste had been waging war against the Fire Caste prior to the siege, it's just that the Fire and Air Caste had numbers and tactics on their side.

Whether they are violent or not does not imply marksmanship, anyway. It merely controls whether they are hesitant to kill or not.

The main issue, as always, is that tau are biologically inferior at reacting to fast moving targets and stimuli. Unless they have a built-in enhancement to their occular processing center, coupled with some sort of replacement lens to deal with pupil dilation, they will always have this handicap.

That being said, it may very well be that in a controlled situation, a tau outshoots the average human. If shooting at a stationary target over distance (or a target that is moving in controlled, predictable patterns, with a long time-frame), tau may outdo humans. In fact, they probably do.

But 40k tries to simulate combat. And those that react faster often have a better chance at defeating an enemy who outclasses them in marksmanship ability. Thus the IG has better combat BS.

I recommend looking at the previous post on 'average BS'. As you see, the guardsmen BS is still only .3 better than the tau. Which may hint that tau are better shots in a clinical environment.

Still, it is the atmosphere of war that is most important, and thus they take a minor penalty, putting humans above them

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Melissia wrote:And keep in mind that even fire warriors are less aggressive and less suited for combat than humans are.

For a human, grabbing the neck of someone who has angered you and throttling them or stabbing them or punching them until they're dead is pretty natural, most people learn to resist such an urge, while the Tau have to learn to have such an urge first, because they by instinct loathe close combat.

A fire warrior in there natural state is quite violent.

Negative.

A Tau in their natural state is quite violent.

The race nearly exterminated itself before the appearance of the Ethereals.

Ok well first of all. If all tau are violent, then fire warriors are violent. I was right and you agree with me.

Also reading the darkest age story again. It was an alliance of air and fire tau attacking a peaceful earth city who wanted peace.

However Tau are quite docile unless ordered by an Etherial.

Fire Caste certaintly have a vicious side, but this is curbed by Etherial supervision. and even then, the Fire Caste prefers ranged combat.