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Hashbeth wrote:Whether they are violent or not does not imply marksmanship, anyway. It merely controls whether they are hesitant to kill or not.

The main issue, as always, is that tau are biologically inferior at reacting to fast moving targets and stimuli. Unless they have a built-in enhancement to their occular processing center, coupled with some sort of replacement lens to deal with pupil dilation, they will always have this handicap.

That being said, it may very well be that in a controlled situation, a tau outshoots the average human. If shooting at a stationary target over distance (or a target that is moving in controlled, predictable patterns, with a long time-frame), tau may outdo humans. In fact, they probably do.

But 40k tries to simulate combat. And those that react faster often have a better chance at defeating an enemy who outclasses them in marksmanship ability. Thus the IG has better combat BS.

I recommend looking at the previous post on 'average BS'. As you see, the guardsmen BS is still only .3 better than the tau. Which may hint that tau are better shots in a clinical environment.

Still, it is the atmosphere of war that is most important, and thus they take a minor penalty, putting humans above them

You missed my follow up. The tau are chronically low BS. In the IG, squad leaders, snipers, veterans all have BS 4. The tau don't see an increase in BS except in there HQ slot (4 or 5). Tau snipers squad leaders and veterans are all 3 BS.

Ah. Mea culpa, then

I agree that Battlesuits need an upgrade. BS3 isn't proper for them.


and I wouldn't be surprised if that happened. generic Chapter Master level HQs seem to be getting BS6 standard.

I predict in the new Tau codex we see the following.

Fire Warrior: BS3
Crisis Suit Shas'ui: BS4
Shas'vre and Shas'el: BS5
Shas'o: BS6

Firewarriors will see a drop in points cost to be more in line with everyone else. probably to 8 points each.

I would rather see FW buffed. If only so I don't need to buy more models.

As long as specialists (pathfinders, snipers) and suit-veterans come with BS4 by default, i don't think it's a terrible crime for Firewarriors of the line to be bs3; elite / veteran units having completely mediocre shooting skills is rather insulting at this point. The average troops can have their performance increased dramatically through markerlights, anyway

nomotog wrote:I would rather see FW buffed. If only so I don't need to buy more models.

I wouldn't have a problem with that, if my space marines all became BS5 standard. after all, soldiers that spend their entire life, which is often hundreds of years, fighting nearly every foe imaginable and have heavy genetic modification(including occular improvement), shouldn't miss 1/3 of every shot they fire.

Grey Templar wrote:

nomotog wrote:I would rather see FW buffed. If only so I don't need to buy more models.

I wouldn't have a problem with that, if my space marines all became BS5 standard. after all, soldiers that spend their entire life, which is often hundreds of years, fighting nearly every foe imaginable and have heavy genetic modification(including occular improvement), shouldn't miss 1/3 of every shot they fire.

Don't they fight at close range though? Not always hand to hand, but always close to there opponent.

they don't always fight close. Space Marines can do long range sniping with their bolters too(the rocket in the round keeps a spin on the round to keep it stable in flight)

They fight at all ranges, due to their varied jobs in the chapter. Remember, marines spend ample time training as scouts, tac squads, etc. as they move up the ranks. And marksmanship is a valued skill.

And the occular implants should make them better BS, anyway.

I would rather see like 7 points a fire warrior and 5 points a Kroot than Increased FW BS.

Now a Crisis suit having bs3 irks me to no end. I would like to see BS4 on basic suits, BS5 for shas'els, BS6 for Shas'O, and BS7 for Shadowsun.


What I think is more likely is BS4 on Suits, BS5 of shas'el/o, BS6 On new Fire Caste Leader, Shadowsun's Experimental Stealthsuit exploded.

And before anyone boos about Crisis Suits having higher BS than Space Marines, Space Marines aren't inside giant robots.

I wouldn't mind a Shas'el/o with BS5. a Space Marine captain has 5 too.

The whole problem here is the abysmal lack of/quality of fluff regarding Tau. GW started the poor eyesight thing and then completely retconned it because it's not mentioned in the current codex, at all.

So that leaves the question. If they don't have a physical limitation that causes poor shooting, why then are they BS3. As far as fluff goes, there's no real reason. Game mechanics, they have marklights which would make it too easy to make every unit BS5 and have plenty of MLs to do other nasty stuff if they were a baseline BS4.

I read through the thread and there's a big mishmash of fluff and game mechanics going on so I suppose you would really need to separate the two before considering the issue objectively.

I'm primarily a gamer so I let the fluff lovers argue out that end of things. I pretty much agree with what Grey Templar said with the addendum of Pathfinders to the baseline BS4 but I'll throw the caveat in that it all depends on what GW decides to do with markerlights in a new codex. It's a bit silly to make the shooting effectiveness of core troops depend on MLs if you have to roll a 4+ to put one on an enemy unit that's within range. The cost to ML ratio is out of wack and hurts the synergy that a Tau army is dependant upon to be successful on the battlefield.

As was kicked around earlier, the S5 30" range weapon is a non-factor because noone plays gunline Tau which means you're either shooting within 12" trying to finish off an enemy unit or still in your Devilfish hoping you don't get unhorsed. On top of this is the current trend to focus entirely on close combat for turns 2 onwards, I assume as a mechanism to speed-up games; this really hurts an army that is geared entirely for close combat and has extemely poor WS and leadership and no access to power fists/weapons. At least IG blobs have access to these. If a FW wants to hit anything with WS5, they have to roll a 5+ to even hit them so inevitably they just get steamrollered by everything that has a claw, knife or looks scary.

As I said, I don't know a great deal of fluff and to be honest I really don't care to because GW writers have proven themselves to be a) terrible and b) able to make it up and change it as they see fit. They really painted themselves into a corner with the whole static snapshot of a look in time because it means to make anything new, they have to pretend all of the things leading up to that item didn't exist. "Did we say Tau have bad eyesight? What we meant to say is that they see perfectly normal but really just abhore close combat." The next codex will be "Did we say that Tau really think close combat is uncivilized? What we meant is that they love and drink the blood of blood angels for breakfast every morning."

Any of this could be said for every army, "We didn't say anything about this guy before because he was busy in the warp, carving his name into the chests of daemons. hur hur."

Just my thoughts.

They will proably just make Kroot slightly better in CC and with more varity and options. maybe able to purchase an armor save that isn't a 6+(5+ thick hide?) maybe access to powerfists/PF equivilant and power weapons.

that will give them at least some sort of CC unit that is at least semi-survivable and won't go down to a guardsmen's slap.

Grey Templar wrote:They will proably just make Kroot slightly better in CC and with more varity and options. maybe able to purchase an armor save that isn't a 6+(5+ thick hide?) maybe access to powerfists/PF equivilant and power weapons.

that will give them at least some sort of CC unit that is at least semi-survivable and won't go down to a guardsmen's slap.

That'd be the easiest fix; the old Chapter Approved Kroot Mercenary list gave options for things like that and the fluff is already there that they're well traveled and interact with a variety of species.

From some things people were saying a couple of months ago though, the Demiurg are supposed to be making an appearance so who knows what they'll do.

Grey Templar wrote:I wouldn't mind a Shas'el/o with BS5. a Space Marine captain has 5 too.

Shas'o WS 4 BS 5 S 5 T 4 W 3 I 3 A 4 Ld 10 Sv 3+

captan WS 5 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 5 A3 Ld 10 Sv 3+

Take a look at that. That is the stats in the little rule book. It's kind of odd how alike they are. It almost looks like the tau could beat them in melee, but they would be slowed by having no melee weapons.

nomotog wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I wouldn't mind a Shas'el/o with BS5. a Space Marine captain has 5 too.

Shas'o WS 4 BS 5 S 5 T 4 W 3 I 3 A 4 Ld 10 Sv 3+

captan WS 5 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 5 A3 Ld 10 Sv 3+

Take a look at that. That is the stats in the little rule book. It's kind of odd how alike they are. It almost looks like the tau could beat them in melee, but they would be slowed by having no melee weapons.

That and the Tau having to pay for his 4+ invulnerable.

iproxtaco wrote:Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information

He means point to something that actually says they have it.

The part explaining all that is written as speculative by an Imperial observer. It's not written as "fact".

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information

He means point to something that actually says they have it.

The part explaining all that is written as speculative by an Imperial observer. It's not written as "fact".

So speculative is ok when it comes to the "hur hur, Tau sterilize populations of worlds" (DoW video game reference) but not ok for equipment loadouts?

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I would rather see like 7 points a fire warrior and 5 points a Kroot than Increased FW BS.

Now a Crisis suit having bs3 irks me to no end. I would like to see BS4 on basic suits, BS5 for shas'els, BS6 for Shas'O, and BS7 for Shadowsun.


What I think is more likely is BS4 on Suits, BS5 of shas'el/o, BS6 On new Fire Caste Leader, Shadowsun's Experimental Stealthsuit exploded.

And before anyone boos about Crisis Suits having higher BS than Space Marines, Space Marines aren't inside giant robots.

Agreed. Shadowsun with BS7 would make her a respectable options, and a fair vehicle killer. Normally she only is good for 1-2 kills.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information

Guardsmen have these things too(imperial munitorum manuel)

all Guardsmen have squad level vox equipment and Magnoculars(with night vision capabilities and auto-focusing at any distance) Targeters are also avaliable for requisition as needed and can be fitted to almost any weapon.

space marine power armor has all these things built in.


don't think that the Tau are unique in equiping their troops with such things.

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information

He means point to something that actually says they have it.

The part explaining all that is written as speculative by an Imperial observer. It's not written as "fact".

So speculative is ok when it comes to the "hur hur, Tau sterilize populations of worlds" (DoW video game reference) but not ok for equipment loadouts?

No, it's not. You're confusing me with Brother Coa--and I suggest you stop doing that if you wish to have meaningful discussion with me.

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information

He means point to something that actually says they have it.

The part explaining all that is written as speculative by an Imperial observer. It's not written as "fact".

Need I remind you that almost all Tau fluff is by speculative Imperials? The pherormone thing, the sterilization thing etc.

Even The Farsight thing, which is a HUGE part of Tau fluff, is surrounded by much speculation.

The only reason it is speculative is because the Mechanicus has been forbidden to do Empirical research


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Point to the bit that actually proves you're right, because ironically, I'm not seeing it.

Communication equipment, night vision sensors, targeting and range-finder information

Guardsmen have these things too(imperial munitorum manuel)

all Guardsmen have squad level vox equipment and Magnoculars(with night vision capabilities and auto-focusing at any distance) Targeters are also avaliable for requisition as needed and can be fitted to almost any weapon.

space marine power armor has all these things built in.


don't think that the Tau are unique in equiping their troops with such things.

Astartes, yes. Magnoculars, yes (though it is not the same thing as targeting equipment) and as for IG having targeters is almost exclusively stormtroopers and artillery companies.

I'm kind of new to the war hammer 40k universe but i would think the way they use marker lights would kind of mean they wouldn't need as much BS skill kind of like an army unit today oh why get good at using a rifle when we can just call in an airstrike... figuratively speaking of course

elektrik wrote:I'm kind of new to the war hammer 40k universe but i would think the way they use marker lights would kind of mean they wouldn't need as much BS skill kind of like an army unit today oh why get good at using a rifle when we can just call in an airstrike... figuratively speaking of course

Punctuation please

Kanluwen wrote:
No, it's not. You're confusing me with Brother Coa--and I suggest you stop doing that if you wish to have meaningful discussion with me.

You did say this:

The anthology "Fear the Xenos"(specifically the story 'Unity') makes a mention of it from a Raven Guard Marine who'd served on Nimbosa, so...

I'd say that the Tau sterilizing humans who don't actually willingly join(which is what it always has been. The non-'grateful' members of their new Glorious Society!) has pretty much become canon now.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344670.page#2411058

But in all fairness, further down the thread you did mention there was only one ending of the game that's canon (not the sterilization one).

Sorry if I misquoted your source. Anyway, though I quoted you I wasn't intending to target you in any way just the concept that we shape our own reality (or in this case choose for ourselves what is canon). In your quote above you state that something written from the perspective of an enemy combatant is canon which means that the same should hold true for other sources such as IA:3.

Completely useless bit of info to add, the only natural BS4 in the Tau book is 'o and 'els. HH and 'Spotter' only have BS4 due to Targetting Arrays.

What I would add is that FW should remain BS3, however BS4 has become far to common for my taste in the present game system.

As some else mentioned earlier, I hope that GW might take the opportunity to move to a different scaling in the next edition and move to D10 for Shooting/CC. {But I also bought a lottery ticket last night, so which one do I have more chance of succeeding with?}

Cheers

Andrew

PS, Just think of all the money GW could make selling us handfuls of D10!!!!

the main problem with that is that it would require every codex to be redone before it would become usable. It would also make alot of people very mad that their massive Dice collections can't be used any more.

Oh I agree, it's just wishlisting, I know that.

However, it may not require reprints of everything, just a simple conversion guide;

Old school BS4 become new ed BS7
Old school BS3 = BS5 (got to keep the 50/50)

and so on.

Not to mention the GW has a habit of making their customers very mad, finecast, embargo, IP bullying, no GW keeps their customer happy

Cheers

Andrew

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Now a Crisis suit having bs3 irks me to no end. I would like to see BS4 on basic suits, BS5 for shas'els, BS6 for Shas'O, and BS7 for Shadowsun.

Torias Telion, one of the best shots in any Space Marines chapter and in the whole Imperium, has a BS of 6.

Torias Telion has been fighting on the field for like what? 700 years?

Why should Shadowsun be better?