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I've never seen it. People always pull it out in these kinds of discussions and say it was in the old codex but it's not in the one I own (I don't own any of the older books). And it's not represented in the video game, I don't know if it's in the fire warrior BL book or not but I don't think so.

nomotog wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

agnosto wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The eyesight thing isn't Imperial speculation though. It was put in there as part of the background to address this exact question. How can warriors who are so well trained only have BS 3? Because the have a bit of trouble focusing on objects at a distance. Tau eyes are actually very complicated and can perceive many things humans cannot but becasue they are so complicated there's a bit of a trade off when it comes to reaction time.

It was also retconned in the current codex (not a word of it in there at all). They're BS3 for game balance purposes due to the d6 system. I think they should be BS3 base and elites and pathfinders should be BS4.

Not mentioned, doesn't mean retconned. For something to be retconned it must be explicitly contradicted.

Where did you find this information in the first place?

According to Kanluwen it was in the design notes. So I guess it was in a WD. I did read it back in the day and not just "heard it on Dakka".

It was actually mentioned in WD 251 November 2001 regarding the eyesight, the skin being dry and beady and water retaining, the scenting the air with the tongue, and the ultra-infra-vision all pointing to a species that was still very much reptilian more than mammalian. The codex kept to the other aspects of the social order and the odd amount of gene manipulation a magos found in Tau DNA.

They did give BS4 to the honor guards though, so if you want an Ethereal, put him a fish with a honor guard of select firewarriors and use them effectively. Maybe in 6th ed, the suits will get BS 4 as well for normal suits, bs5 for the next level and possibly as high as BS 6-7 for commander of the 'O class.(allowing a limited re-roll in case of a miss)

Do design documents count as cannon? I would do a tentative no. You can use them to find incite into the intent behind different bits of cannon, but I don't think they should be used on there own because things can change.

I am thinking of the fallout design documents. They released a lot of them with a lot of bits of fluff, but by the time that the bits of fluff trickled out into actual games things had changed a lot. Some of the big stuff stayed the same, but there was a lot of mixing and rolling of different bits.

I'm not big on the fluff (because it's often contradictory and spotty) so I don't know about the physiology thing so much. The codex talks about the ethereal bodyguard being firewarriors that were eligible to be battlesuit pilots but turned it down to protect ethereals. That always made it make even less sense that battlesuits didn't have BS4....unless the suits make them worse shots somehow.

nomotog wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
It is not canon because it is supposition from an Imperial Point of view. Humans, being less inclined towards absolute loyal, cannot comprehend it, and begin clutching at straws to try and explain it, simply because they do not understand. They also made a wild guess that Ethereals are psykers, but it doesn't make it true.

The whole dex is canon or zero page are.
Decide.

It's all cannon. So it is cannon that people speculate that it is some kind smell based control. That's about the same as having a rumor that's cannon. It's true that there is a rumor, but that dosen't make the rumor true.

People tend to think rumors are suppose be to true, but that dosen't have to be the case. Some times a rumor is just a rumor.

Exactly! That was what I was saying for the past 10 pages!

im2randomghgh wrote:

nomotog wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
It is not canon because it is supposition from an Imperial Point of view. Humans, being less inclined towards absolute loyal, cannot comprehend it, and begin clutching at straws to try and explain it, simply because they do not understand. They also made a wild guess that Ethereals are psykers, but it doesn't make it true.

The whole dex is canon or zero page are.
Decide.

It's all cannon. So it is cannon that people speculate that it is some kind smell based control. That's about the same as having a rumor that's cannon. It's true that there is a rumor, but that dosen't make the rumor true.

People tend to think rumors are suppose be to true, but that dosen't have to be the case. Some times a rumor is just a rumor.

Exactly! That was what I was saying for the past 10 pages!

Never say ten times what can be said one time.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The eyesight thing isn't Imperial speculation though. It was put in there as part of the background to address this exact question. How can warriors who are so well trained only have BS 3? Because the have a bit of trouble focusing on objects at a distance. Tau eyes are actually very complicated and can perceive many things humans cannot but becasue they are so complicated there's a bit of a trade off when it comes to reaction time.

The incredible detail in which they see the world (see: pentachromacy)

Makes them expert snipers, but worse in the heat of battle. When they have the amount of time snipers do to line up their shots, they are more likely to hit due to better visual detail, however in the heat of battle, they would be roughly equal to a human in terms of accuracy.

However, due to the slow rate of fire of a pulse rifle (70-80 rounds per minute on full auto) they use almost volley-ish fire ('cept with carbines) which would put them at BS3+/BS4-

They have a hard time focusing on distant targets. I'd say that puts them at a disadvantage when it comes to hitting things that are a fair distance away.

Then maybe GW would be better off doing away with the whole "masters of ranged combat" thing since they can't see well at range anyway and just give them uber close range weapons.

Or do away with the eyesight thing, that would make more sense, considering this was only in the designers notes and not in the actual codex.

iproxtaco wrote:They have a hard time focusing on distant targets. I'd say that puts them at a disadvantage when it comes to hitting things that are a fair distance away.

Not sure where you got that from. The slow pupil dilation is their only occular disadvantage.

Plus, scopes render that moot.

Plus, this is a cool picture:

agnosto wrote:I'm not big on the fluff (because it's often contradictory and spotty) so I don't know about the physiology thing so much. The codex talks about the ethereal bodyguard being firewarriors that were eligible to be battlesuit pilots but turned it down to protect ethereals. That always made it make even less sense that battlesuits didn't have BS4....unless the suits make them worse shots somehow.

Simple answer is that the suits used aren't as "advanced" as the others.

Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:They have a hard time focusing on distant targets. I'd say that puts them at a disadvantage when it comes to hitting things that are a fair distance away.

Not sure where you got that from. The slow pupil dilation is their only occular disadvantage.

Plus, scopes render that moot.

Plus, this is a cool picture:

Very slow or no pupil dilation. Any sort of light is going to play hell with their vision, and they wont be able to focus on distant targets as well as a human with fully functioning pupils.

I don't think that article was designer notes. I think it was just an article about the Tau. They used to have interesting articles like that back in the day in WD. Y'know, when it was good.

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I don't think that article was designer notes. I think it was just an article about the Tau. They used to have interesting articles like that back in the day in WD. Y'know, when it was good.

White Dwarf october 2001, index xenos.

Thats where it is from.
- the looks and the physiology of Tau
- the "loyality thing"
- rate of fire of their weaons
- etc etc

Is that were it says pulse rifles fire 70-80 times a minute? I think that's pretty good, considering their stopping power.

Do people even use the internet these days? lexicanum, 40k wiki all explain this.

oh and xenology book (which I consider cannon) has ethereal being tested on and I quote

"Occular organs. Lateral arrangement (185* peripheral vision) and 'mammalian' structure analogous with human eye. Primitive photo-receptors suggest limited sensitivity of vision- conclusion: subject relies upon advanced olfactory senses (and technology?) to reconcile poor eyesight.

ps - the book spelled Ocular wrong


the way I remember it is that tau have poor reaction time with their eyesight so how do they deal with eldar who sometimes "look like blurs to humans"

Shas'la = BS3
Shas'ui = BS3
Shas'vre = BS4
Shas'o = BS4
Shas'el = BS5

I see nothing wrong with this. I do not want a BS increase, I want a points decrease and more options for weaponry.

Zyllos wrote:Shas'la = BS3
Shas'ui = BS3
Shas'vre = BS4
Shas'o = BS4
Shas'el = BS5

I see nothing wrong with this. I do not want a BS increase, I want a points decrease and more options for weaponry.

Considering the bulky targetting systems that take up the entire head section, the avarage battlesuit should be a far better shot than the average Guardsmen and probably on par with if not better than a veteran. In game they're given access to a massive amount of weaponry, but are incapable of hitting anything with it. IMO all Battlesuits should be given a BS increase- make Shas'uis BS4, Shas'vre & 'els BS5 and 'os BS7 (since BS6 is only a tiny upgrade from BS5). FW should be given some kind of boost to accuracy but not an especially big one. For example, they could be given wargear that allows them to re-roll any 1s to hit.

im2randomghgh wrote:
If video game events matter to you, than do you consider Fire Warrior canon? You know, where a SINGLE FW kills enormous numbers of SM, a GD of Tzeentch, and countless other enemies, on his OWN?

Yeah that is a cannon to, to our misfortune. All because it is explained that Khorne himself guide that Tau FW trough battlefield...
Witch means that Tau can to be tricked by Chaos Gods...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SabrX wrote:
The Pulse Rifles in that game are underpowered.

Yeah, Lasgun is much more powerful then Pulse Rifle there. Autogun to.

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

OR OR OR...it was for balancing issues. And they do have advanced sensor suites-they just come at a premium. Target Lock, Multi Tracker Targeting Array, Blacksun Filter, A.S.S. and Shadowsun's Multi Tracker Advanced Target Lock (1 piece of equipment) etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
If video game events matter to you, than do you consider Fire Warrior canon? You know, where a SINGLE FW kills enormous numbers of SM, a GD of Tzeentch, and countless other enemies, on his OWN?

Yeah that is a cannon to, to our misfortune. All because it is explained that Khorne himself guide that Tau FW trough battlefield...
Witch means that Tau can to be tricked by Chaos Gods...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SabrX wrote:
The Pulse Rifles in that game are underpowered.

Yeah, Lasgun is much more powerful then Pulse Rifle there. Autogun to.

1. Not Tricked. Helped, but with no deal made, it isn't a trick. If Khorne wanted he could make a Squirrel kill an Imperator.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TrollPie wrote:

Zyllos wrote:Shas'la = BS3
Shas'ui = BS3
Shas'vre = BS4
Shas'o = BS4
Shas'el = BS5

I see nothing wrong with this. I do not want a BS increase, I want a points decrease and more options for weaponry.

Considering the bulky targetting systems that take up the entire head section, the avarage battlesuit should be a far better shot than the average Guardsmen and probably on par with if not better than a veteran. In game they're given access to a massive amount of weaponry, but are incapable of hitting anything with it. IMO all Battlesuits should be given a BS increase- make Shas'uis BS4, Shas'vre & 'els BS5 and 'os BS7 (since BS6 is only a tiny upgrade from BS5). FW should be given some kind of boost to accuracy but not an especially big one. For example, they could be given wargear that allows them to re-roll any 1s to hit.

^that

+1


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the lasguns being stronger than pulse rifles in FW is BS. Pulse Rifles are more powerful shot for shot than a bolter.

im2randomghgh wrote:Not Tricked. Helped, but with no deal made, it isn't a trick. If Khorne wanted he could make a Squirrel kill an Imperator.

Let's not go that far around... if they could kill him they would do that centuries ago.
But FW proves that Tau can be swayed by Chaos Gods - just like Humans. ( and just wait until Tau develop psykers, oh the irony ).

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Not Tricked. Helped, but with no deal made, it isn't a trick. If Khorne wanted he could make a Squirrel kill an Imperator.

Let's not go that far around... if they could kill him they would do that centuries ago.
But FW proves that Tau can be swayed by Chaos Gods - just like Humans. ( and just wait until Tau develop psykers, oh the irony ).

him? What do you mean "would have killed HIM?" an imperator is a titan, titans are not "him"s

And "swayed" and "incorporated into plans" are different. By your logic, everything in existence is tainted by Tzeentch, because everything is accounted for by Tzeentch. By your logic, my dog could turn into a pink horror.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

+1 for noticing. Clever.

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

All that JSJ makes it hard on the tech to target things downrange?

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

agnosto wrote:Probably the only example of technology making you a worse shot in the whole 40k universe.

Well no, if the "normal" Fire Caste fighter is BS3 and a Suited fighter is BS3--it simply means he doesn't have the more advanced sensor suites of the "Command" suits.

You can have a honor guard of fire warriors with 4BS if they went on to be suit pilots then there BS would drop to 3 again.

Each suit is not necessarily the same, you have to remember this.
You can be qualified to pilot a 'standard' Crisis Suit but not a Broadside or an XV-89. The 'standard' Crisis Suit likely has inferior components to the suits that Commanders or Specialists use.

Still, piloting an XV8 would be a boost to accuracy, not a hindrance.

Also, I wonder how an XV9 would affect accuracy?