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So I have heard a LOT of bad press for it but why dose it have bad press, isn't it simpily a wargame with cards? (I feel like im going to get lectured now...)

so why is it? also if you have had bad experiances with it post it here.

Cheers to all comments.

I've never heard anything all that bad in MTG. In fact it's pretty popular with just about all the gamers I know. In fact, even some non-gamers I know have enjoyed picking it up when they were introduced.

Granted like everything in life you tend to have "That one guy" show up every now and then but you can't really fault the game for that.

That said I wouldn't really compare MTG to a Wargame, it's a very different sort of experience.

I think the main gripe most people have with MtG is expense. It is not a cheap game if you want to play competitively.

I played it a looong time ago, back when it was relatively fresh (Ice Age up to Tempest). It's expensive, and gives me all of the obnoxious hypercompetitiveness of 40k along with the agonizing over deck building/tactics that is normal for about any of these games, all without the fun and joy I get from assembling/painting models.

As an (probably unfair) stereotype, I've also found MTG players more annoying and more overly sensitive about criticism of their hobby. At least with my group, someone rips on 40k, we have a good laugh and we refer to it as us playing with our 'man dollies'. You be critical of MTG, and people react like you punched them.


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One of the guys at work is actually going to a booster tournament this weekend and was talking about the game. Apparently the rules/powers of the cards have changed so much I didn't even recognize the game. I got completely lost about the time he said '...cards upside down'.

daedalus wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
One of the guys at work is actually going to a booster tournament this weekend and was talking about the game. Apparently the rules/powers of the cards have changed so much I didn't even recognize the game. I got completely lost about the time he said '...cards upside down'.

I suspect he may be talking about the new Double-faced cards (DFCs) being released as a part of the set innistrad later this month. They're just cards without the standard back, and full rules on both sides. It's a horror themed set and used to represent a creature that changes form. One side might be a bat, with the other side being a vampire or one side might be a human, while the other side is a full werewolf. In all cases the card has some kind of trigger that once met causes you to flip over the card, playing with (generally stronger), creature on the other side.

Otherwise he may have been talking a unofficial convention where some players like to keep creatures with summoning sickness "Upside down" that is with the top part of the card facing them. It has no rules meaning and isn't actually a part of the game, it's just something some people like to do to remind themselves they can't tap or attack with it that turn.

Hey if I found a way to print money, and it was completely legal, I would do it.

That's what MTG is to me.

I've just got into MTG. I'm liking it a lot. Beings as I used to play a lot of Yugioh, I prefer it.

Yugioh players are a LOT worse than MTG players. Although, like someone said, you still get 'that guy'. Luckily, at my FLGS, we only have one - and most of us ignore him for the most part as he is really obnoxious and childish for a 40 year old.

Mtg : a top standard deck will cost in the region of a warhammer/40K army. Yes you can play straight away but when a new set is released in 3 months you'll need to replace about $100 of cards. Then when a block rotates out you're FUBARED. Also every YEAR (used to be every 2 years) the core set rotates...

It's taken waaay too seriously to be a fun game unless you play with the right people - then it comes down to who can spend the most money on a deck.

Some formats are more fun than others - EDH/Commander for example. You just need to find the right group of people. unfortunately competitive events are an exercise in douchbaggery of rules exploitation and the ever present 'metagame'.

If you've got the cash and enjoy it try it. However I'd recommend commander or legacy or even the pre-releases as updating a deck to remain 'compeditive' (and to what end - fancy making the finals? do you have the money/time to take off and do that for weekends at a time?)

Yeah, playing competitively can get expensive (as it can with any game), but understand that there are a ton of different sub-types of games you can play through magic. You can play standard tournaments where you'll find the most competition, or you can look into some of the other game types.
There's modern, extended, and legacy which are almost as competitive as standard but require a lot of knowledge about the older card base.
EDH is by definition a less competitive, multi-player game. I like this type because of its casual nature. You still have to do some investigating into the older card base, but this knowledge comes with time. As you play you'll pick up different cards and different ways to use them. It can still get expensive, but the expense goes up with your passion for the game.
Interestingly, there is a game type out right now called "pauper", in which you use some of the worst cards you can find to try and make a decent deck. This probably says something about the power creep in magic, but its fun and silly to play.
Finally, get into some draft or booster tournaments. In these official competition they give you booster packs that you have to share with other players, and you basically build your deck out of those. This makes it so everyone has equal opportunity in building your decks. By that I mean you're not expected to compete against someone who's thrown down $100 on the deck.
I've been playing on and off between casual and competitive for ten years now. I think I've finally resolved to sticking with casual play but I have a group of friend who still keep up with the competitive crowd. I think it all comes down to your tastes in gaming, and I say you should give it a shot. I personally recommend you go to a draft.
Good Luck!

Competitive magic is hardcore and expensive.

Casual magic is super-cheap, and super fun.

I've never heard MtG get bad press. My roomates and I just got into it, them having never played a card game before and myself having played years ago, and we all love it. We probably played for 6 hours today, just playing a few 1v1v1 free for alls.

I refuse to play MtG until they bring Banding back.

No, seriously, I played a LONG ago (quit at around Visions), it was really fun, but the card and expansion design began to center around tourney play and it became really meh.

In my opinion, tournaments ruined Magic. The game was designed to be played in limited environment: the designers didn't ever think that someone could have time & money to acquire multiple copies of rare powerful cards which broke the game. So they had to tone it down in card design, and then cynically began exploiting that later. I never found playing 'competive' decks enjoyable: games tended to be very one-sided, either you won big or lost big. In a tabletob wargame, even 'weak' army can be fun to play even if you lose most of the time, but this was not the case with Magic.

As I said, in my opinion Magic works best in limited environment where you are limited by what cards you can physically acquire. In unlimited environment, 90% of the cards become useless. I had never any interest playing in a tournament unless it was a booster draft or sealed deck.

I have no problems with MtG

Really digging the new set even though I havent bought anything in years. (were wolves, vampires, evil scientists, witch hunters? Oh my!) Of course then again I have a soft spot for Kamigawa, one of the worst game mechanic sets ever

MTG destroys friendships. Seriously.

Take last year at college, for example. A bunch of guys on my dorm floor all realized that we used to play Magic. The next thing we know, old decks are being brought out, and everyone's having a good time.

Then it starts. Someone purchases a few cards to help their deck. That person starts to win. A lot. So a few other people go online and get some cards they need. '

The next thing you know, half the floor's dead and I only escaped the bomb by tying together bedsheets and jumping out of my bedroom window on the 11th floor.

infinite_array wrote:MTG destroys friendships. Seriously.

Take last year at college, for example. A bunch of guys on my dorm floor all realized that we used to play Magic. The next thing we know, old decks are being brought out, and everyone's having a good time.

Then it starts. Someone purchases a few cards to help their deck. That person starts to win. A lot. So a few other people go online and get some cards they need. '

The next thing you know, half the floor's dead and I only escaped the bomb by tying together bedsheets and jumping out of my bedroom window on the 11th floor.

A real man would have jumped out of the 13th floor, just to be safe

I feel like any game can get taken out of proportion, especially if you put a competitive emphasis on it. If you feel like playing a casual game with friends then just play, don't get all wrapped up in who is buying cards and winning with them.
The other thing that is cool about magic, especially if you're playing casually, you're not restricted to one deck. If someone buys cards for their deck to make it better then you can just make a new deck; one geared to defeating the first one. Its not expensive and every deck style has its weakness.

God forbid, solid tournament rules I preferred Yugioh to MtG because I don't like having to draw resources as you'll inevitably lose/win unfairly due to a bad hand. That being said, there's nothing wrong with having a game that's more about the game and less about some hobby aspect. I don't understand the hate. And a top tier magic deck will costs less than a 40k army fwiw, dunno what game people are talking about.

And a top tier magic deck will costs less than a 40k army fwiw, dunno what game people are talking about.

Plus, if you pawn your deck off at the right moment you have a fair chance of getting 100%+ of your investment back. Try doing that with your warhams .
People complain so much about the expense of playing tournament magic, but those 9 Razorbacks you need for competitive 40k aren't exactly cheap either.

And as someone already mentioned, at least the rules are solid enough for tournament play rather than being full of ymdc grey areas.

Daedalus wrote:One of the guys at work is actually going to a booster tournament this weekend and was talking about the game. Apparently the rules/powers of the cards have changed so much I didn't even recognize the game. I got completely lost about the time he said '...cards upside down'.

probably morphs.

daedalus wrote: back when it was relatively fresh (Ice Age up to Tempest)

Noob; Alpha to Ice Age here.

It's no cheap expense even if you don't want to play competitively. The card sets are rotated in and out of playability every year or so, it's damn near impossible to keep up half the time.

Some hardcore Magic players at my old FLGS told us that Warhammer was a huge waste of money. I asked him how long his cards were "usable". He replied probably for another 6 months. I then proceeded to inform him that some of the minis I have are older than he was, and they are still playable. He shut up.

oh, and I played Magic when the Revised edition and the Dark were new, quit after Ice Age...

SoloFalcon138 wrote:It's no cheap expense even if you don't want to play competitively. The card sets are rotated in and out of playability every year or so, it's damn near impossible to keep up half the time.

I don't know what you base this on. You can use any card you want in casual. Once you've gotten past the start-up you probably only need 4 or 5 playsets when a new set comes out (and that's me with my 25+ decks, you'll probably only want 1 or 2 sets when you have a reasonable number), so you go to your local vendor and get them. Not hard to keep up at all.

SoloFalcon138 wrote:He replied probably for another 6 months.

Well that's just standard, one of seven different tournament modes. And then there's the countless casual variants.

TiB wrote:

And a top tier magic deck will costs less than a 40k army fwiw, dunno what game people are talking about.

Plus, if you pawn your deck off at the right moment you have a fair chance of getting 100%+ of your investment back. Try doing that with your warhams .
People complain so much about the expense of playing tournament magic, but those 9 Razorbacks you need for competitive 40k aren't exactly cheap either.

And as someone already mentioned, at least the rules are solid enough for tournament play rather than being full of ymdc grey areas.

BUT while Salamander marines might not be 'top tier' at the moment, they will still be decent. Eventually eldar will get a new codex. You can be faithful and committed. In mtg if you like say black/red the 'meta' might make that really weak so t obe compeditive you have to play specific decks. Also it gets boring facing the same decks with only minor varients.

Seriously guys get to the WOTCdecks site and somewhere like www.magiccardmarket.eu and try and price up that top deck. You CAN play warhammer for less than that!

Phototoxin wrote:BUT while Salamander marines might not be 'top tier' at the moment, they will still be decent. Eventually eldar will get a new codex. You can be faithful and committed. In mtg if you like say black/red the 'meta' might make that really weak so t obe compeditive you have to play specific decks. Also it gets boring facing the same decks with only minor varients.

I don't see how they're that different:

- Yes you can play your Salamanders and Eldar in 40k tournaments, you just have to go through a lot more trouble than the guy playing Mech IG.
- Yes you can still play your Elfball and Spiral Tide decks in MtG (legacy) tournaments, you just have to go through a lot more trouble than the guy playing Merfolk.

- No you are right in that your favourite red-black ogre-themed deck won't fare very well in a tournament.
- but that's also true for your pet necron army sporting 30 Pariahs.

- Yes it is boring to play against the same couple of decks all the time. But at least there's almost always 10-15 different decks with top shots at the prize. With another 15-20 decks in the tier 2
- in contrast to the 5-7 different top tier and the other 10 tier 2 army-builds 40k has.

Phototoxin wrote:Seriously guys get to the WOTCdecks site and somewhere like www.magiccardmarket.eu and try and price up that top deck. You CAN play warhammer for less than that!

Seriously guys get to the army lists forum and somewhere like www.gamesworkshop.com and try and price up that top build. You CAN play MtG for less than the price of 1 tank!

I don't really see your point there.

Competitive anything is bound to become expensive. And competitive 40k and MtG are in the same cost-ballpark (even though I play and win competitive MtG with a $70,- deck atm). So everyone should just do whatever he or she likes, big difference it makes not.

happygolucky wrote:So I have heard a LOT of bad press for it but why dose it have bad press, isn't it simpily a wargame with cards? (I feel like im going to get lectured now...)

so why is it? also if you have had bad experiances with it post it here.

Cheers to all comments.

It is the same as with every other game: If you've got the money you can push the boundaries. I got into magic early on when the Unlimited set and Arabians were readily available. For a few years (up through Homelands I think it was), I was an avid collector and had full sets of everything (except Legends which was just near impossible to complete). I eventually burned out on the collectible aspect of the game and stop trying to "get 'em all". My own personal negatives at this stage:

1) The collectible aspect is tiresome, though after market card prices are no where near as insane as they were back when MtG was still pretty new.
2) The colors just don't feel really unique anymore. Early on the colors were very distinct from each other and offered very different playing styles. Now you can do just about everything in every color....meh.
3) Because of the jerk-holes through the years I can't really play with most of my cards in any pseudo official events because they are not allowed.

None of these things keep me from playing with friends and enjoying the game anyway. I just don't play in any tournies, and I am completely fine with that.

I do miss the earlier days when rare cards really were somewhat rare and in a local tourney you could succeed while playing a deck made up completely of common cards. That was always fun, especially when opponents pushed you to play for ante. Never lost anything important to me at all, but actually gained quite a few decent rares and uncommons in the process. I do have to laugh when I think back to some of the big bad cards that were banned in earlier tournement settings. Nowadays you have cards in the game that combine the excessive abilities of multiples of those cards and no one bats an eye. Shows how things change...

Skriker

TiB wrote:Competitive anything is bound to become expensive. And competitive 40k and MtG are in the same cost-ballpark (even though I play and win competitive MtG with a $70,- deck atm). So everyone should just do whatever he or she likes, big difference it makes not.

Exactly. It is not as if either hobby is entirely more sensible then the other. You don't have to spend too terribly much on either one, and you have to option to go crazy and spend a lot to be competitive for either one.
As a casual player I obtain a card base by drafting for $10 a night or through trades, buying (good) 5 cent commons, or just pulling cards out of the huge collection my friend has. (Also, I feel like everyone I know who plays magic has at least one friend with a huuuuge collection of cards.)
Also, as a casual player of warhammer I can validate throwing down maybe $100 to start my army and be entertained by the hobby for at least an entire year. A years worth of nightly entertainment seems for a $100 also seems pretty cheap to me.

TiB wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:BUT while Salamander marines might not be 'top tier' at the moment, they will still be decent. Eventually eldar will get a new codex. You can be faithful and committed. In mtg if you like say black/red the 'meta' might make that really weak so t obe compeditive you have to play specific decks. Also it gets boring facing the same decks with only minor varients.

I don't see how they're that different:

- Yes you can play your Salamanders and Eldar in 40k tournaments, you just have to go through a lot more trouble than the guy playing Mech IG.
- Yes you can still play your Elfball and Spiral Tide decks in MtG (legacy) tournaments, you just have to go through a lot more trouble than the guy playing Merfolk.

- No you are right in that your favourite red-black ogre-themed deck won't fare very well in a tournament.
- but that's also true for your pet necron army sporting 30 Pariahs.

- Yes it is boring to play against the same couple of decks all the time. But at least there's almost always 10-15 different decks with top shots at the prize. With another 15-20 decks in the tier 2
- in contrast to the 5-7 different top tier and the other 10 tier 2 army-builds 40k has.

Phototoxin wrote:Seriously guys get to the WOTCdecks site and somewhere like www.magiccardmarket.eu and try and price up that top deck. You CAN play warhammer for less than that!

Seriously guys get to the army lists forum and somewhere like www.gamesworkshop.com and try and price up that top build. You CAN play MtG for less than the price of 1 tank!

I don't really see your point there.

Competitive anything is bound to become expensive. And competitive 40k and MtG are in the same cost-ballpark (even though I play and win competitive MtG with a $70,- deck atm). So everyone should just do whatever he or she likes, big difference it makes not.

The point was is that you can use GW minis from the days of rouge trader and still be able to use them while with MTG you will pay A LOT of money for a deck that lasts for 6 months.

Skriker wrote:
1) The collectible aspect is tiresome, though after market card prices are no where near as insane as they were back when MtG was still pretty new.

What was personally big turnoff for me was the expansion policy they adopted after Alliances. There were just too many friggin' expansions, new ones coming up like every three months. It burned out the game real quick for me and it felt like they were jumping the shark and cashing on the game's popularity. Plus, at about that time, card design went south with many really unimaginative new cards, and even card art became pretty boring after they dumped their original artist cast. I'm totally out of touch about the present situation.

What I feel as a shortcoming of MtG is that even in friendly games, power creep can set out really quickly. Many more powerful decks were such that they could totally lock your own deck down, after which game became just insanely boring as you couldn't do anything. Even if you agreed on not going all WAAC and just have fun & games, power level between the decks could be considerable. This is why I liked limited environment as that actually gives some challenge about how to build and play your decks and not just spam the killer combo ad nauseum. I feel that tabletop wargames are just much more 'forgiving' in this sense than MtG.

Another thing we did a lot was team games. 2 vs 2 with random pairings was insanely fun, games had ebb & flow and cards which had no use on duels were suddenly quite useful. You had things like animated Aladdin's Lamps crushing your enemies.

Sounds like there are quite some old geezers on here reminiscing about the time cards were 3 cents per booster and a dime for a starter and still you got an ounce of gold in every pack. Also you had to walk uphill against the wind both ways for 5 miles to get yourself a pack but back in those days we didn't complain much sonny, you were happy with what you got.

Seriously though, too many expansions, too little expansions, worse card design, those are all valid opinions (though not mine). But to say the card art got worse? That's GOT to be the nostalgia glasses...

and not just spam the killer combo ad nauseum.

Are you sure you're not in the scene anymore? Ad Nauseam is actually a key card in the top combo deck in Legacy .

TiB wrote:
Seriously though, too many expansions, too little expansions, worse card design, those are all valid opinions (though not mine). But to say the card art got worse? That's GOT to be the nostalgia glasses...

I liked the pre-5th Edition card design. Sure, some of the artists were pretty crappy. But the card pictures were CLEAR. At around 5th Edition they moved to standard fantasy art, which is great in poster size, but looks like crap when shrunk to postage stamp size.

And good luck trying to convince anyone that the new Pokemon-style frame design is an improvement over the classic one.

Magic top decks can sometimes be expensive, like the infamous Cawblade build of recent times, but some are also dirt cheap. Jund was less than 200 dollars and was the best deck in its format. Ravager affinity, considered one of the most broken decks in standard history, went for 100 bucks. And decks that aren't tier 1 in standard usually go for less than 200.

Casual? Most casual decks (Save those based around Sneak Attack, Slivers, or Doubling Season) don't crest 100, and even the dedicated ones rarely reach the price of even a small Warhammer force. The main exception is EDH, but EDH decks last forever, and EDH is fun as hell.

Besides, this is a Warhammer forum. Are you seriously complaining about prices? Magic decks are much cheaper than Warhammer armies unless you want to go very competitive (And even then, they come out close to the same).

happygolucky wrote:The point was is that you can use GW minis from the days of rouge trader and still be able to use them while with MTG you will pay A LOT of money for a deck that lasts for 6 months.

Play Legacy or EDH, problem solved; neither of those formats rotates sets. I'd say Modern too, but Modern is a new format and so its banlist is still malleable (So you might invest in a deck and then get it banned after one tournament).

Really, the only Magic formats that rotate sets are Standard (Already discussed), Block (Not that popular), and Limited (Which costs a dozen bucks to play for a night in, and you get cards for it). Everything else, use whatever terrible Alliances cards you like.

Backfire wrote:And good luck trying to convince anyone that the new Pokemon-style frame design is an improvement over the classic one.

It looks about a thousand times better for Gold, Black, and Green, that's for sure. Old Gold frames were more muddy-brown, while old Black and Breen frames had that stupid "parchment" look that was a cool concept but made the colors clash.

I do prefer old Red, White, and Blue frames, but seriously, Eighth Edition was years ago, I got over it.

Molten Butter wrote:
I do prefer old Red, White, and Blue frames, but seriously, Eighth Edition was years ago, I got over it.

Hey, I'm an old fart, I'm not even over the Fifth Edition.

Revised Edition, that's where MtG peaked...