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Lord Scythican wrote:So basically if I want to play standard I need to pay out a lot of cash to get mythic cards that is really only useful for a year or so.

Actually no. You don't need to buy mythic cards at all and can still play just as easily as anyone else can. In fact those $90 cards can and are acquired simply for the price of a booster pack every day. Those cards don't just magically appear in someone's hands to be sold for $90 after all.

As always it is the aftermarket speculators who are the whole problem here anyway. I remember way back when Ice Age was released and all the people complaining and moaning about how they had just spent $75+ for Icy Manipulators aftermarket only to have WotC release them again in Ice Age. WotC's response was: So? It isn't our fault you spent $75 on a card. Plenty of other people didn't spend that stupid amount of money for a single card, yet alone multiples of the same card.

This is why I just play with friends. I don't worry about the current mix of cards or speculators. It just doesn't enter into things for me. I didn't have to dump the game completely just to avoid those things either. I can still play with my friends and have fun and not worry about the "power deck du jour" either.

Skriker

Skriker wrote:Actually no. You don't need to buy mythic cards at all and can still play just as easily as anyone else can. In fact those $90 cards can and are acquired simply for the price of a booster pack every day. Those cards don't just magically appear in someone's hands to be sold for $90 after all.

He did say 'if you want to play standard'. In competitive play it is sometimes possible to play budget, but you can't just act as if the expensive cards don't exist. And sometimes the answer to an expensive card is an expensive card. And saying that you can simply get a $90,- card by buying a $3,- booster. The chance of getting any specific mythic card is roughly 1/120.

WoTC has stopped with stuff like reprinting Icy Manipulator at its most expensive point and laughing at the complaining people. They have realised that stunts like this does not make happy customers. For a long time they have even had a no-reprint list on which they simply put all rare cards to protect peoples' investments. They relaxed this policy a bit but they're still really careful.

TiB wrote:[e did say 'if you want to play standard'. In competitive play it is sometimes possible to play budget, but you can't just act as if the expensive cards don't exist. And sometimes the answer to an expensive card is an expensive card. And saying that you can simply get a $90,- card by buying a $3,- booster. The chance of getting any specific mythic card is roughly 1/120.

There is a difference in playing and playing with the big boys and being completely competitive as well. He is complaing that he *has* to buy those cards to be able to play, but he doesn't. He can play just fine without them. Now if he wants to win every time I might agree that he may want to spend the money for them. It comes down to what is more important: Playing the game or winning the game at all costs. If play is the goal then they aren't necessary. If winning at all costs is the goal then there is no room for complaints.

Skriker

Standard is actually in a really good place right now for pricing. Things that rotate often still fetch a high price for modern and extended, so selling your old stuff for the new stuff is a perfectly reasonable gameplan that keeps your costs down quite a bit.

Skriker wrote:

TiB wrote:[e did say 'if you want to play standard'. In competitive play it is sometimes possible to play budget, but you can't just act as if the expensive cards don't exist. And sometimes the answer to an expensive card is an expensive card. And saying that you can simply get a $90,- card by buying a $3,- booster. The chance of getting any specific mythic card is roughly 1/120.

There is a difference in playing and playing with the big boys and being completely competitive as well. He is complaing that he *has* to buy those cards to be able to play, but he doesn't. He can play just fine without them. Now if he wants to win every time I might agree that he may want to spend the money for them. It comes down to what is more important: Playing the game or winning the game at all costs. If play is the goal then they aren't necessary. If winning at all costs is the goal then there is no room for complaints.

Skriker

Thanks for the clarification TiB. Pretty much TiB has the right of it and maybe I should have been a little more specific, but there is a big difference between:

Skriker wrote:
This is why I just play with friends. I don't worry about the current mix of cards or speculators. It just doesn't enter into things for me. I didn't have to dump the game completely just to avoid those things either. I can still play with my friends and have fun and not worry about the "power deck du jour" either.

and

Lord Scythican wrote:So basically if I want to play standard I need to pay out a lot of cash to get mythic cards that is really only useful for a year or so.

What you are playing is casual not standard. It is sort of like playing Halo: CE on a big screen TV with three of your friends. You may think you are good, but when you play slayer with 13-31 other people the game changes significantly. Casual decks even using standard cards are usually eaten alive in a standard tournament. Sure you have the occasional smartass who says he can make a causal deck with commons and uncommons that beats all teir 1 decks but let us see that deck does that every week. If he does he is no longer playing casually and will have to buy $90.00 cards to adapt.

I like playing standard not casual. I don't consider "playing the game" week after week with a few friends enjoyable. In standard you need expensive cards to remain competitive week after week. In addition the friends that I would play with are pretty good guys, but in my experience those casual games that you play stay nice and enjoyable only for a small period of time. It is inevitable that someone will buy a few good rares off ebay and put them in their casual deck. Then all of a sudden they are winning more often than the others. After this a few other people buy expensive rares to stay competitive even if it is a casual game. next thing you know you are all playing FNM with Tier 1 decks and there is one guy who doesn't play any more because he is butthurt about his friends buying expensive cards and beating him all the time.

I got tired of that circle and the endless cycle of buying expensive rares, selling them before they rotate out, replacing them with even more expensive rares 6 months later.

You mean other than being a endlessly updating money driven enterprise of bs rules which constantly outdate and force out to spend more money in order to actually play in their tournaments? Or how about the fact that even if you do play in the tournaments it boils down to a calculation of strongest cards in current legal edition wins when 40k is based off chance, tactics and dedication to your army (painting and good care). Oh or how about when you buy enough 40k stuff you rarely need to buy more ?How about the standard person who play 40k vs the people who play magic being not only more mature but also intelligent than a 13 year old kid who cries to mom when he wants more card (given 40k has this too but it's rare.)

Lastly, one is produced by WTOC a company who would sooner give you a kick in the junk before they would give you customer service rather than GW who realizes customer Service is the whole basis of sales.

Skriker wrote:There is a difference in playing and playing with the big boys and being completely competitive as well. He is complaing that he *has* to buy those cards to be able to play, but he doesn't. He can play just fine without them. Now if he wants to win every time I might agree that he may want to spend the money for them. It comes down to what is more important: Playing the game or winning the game at all costs. If play is the goal then they aren't necessary. If winning at all costs is the goal then there is no room for complaints.

Ok, fair enough. Personally, I just join in with a play group if I want to play casual (and want to bust out my janky wall-deck or splice onto arcane-deck) and do weird plays. When I go to tournaments, I go all out WAAC. Although, admittedly, this is personal.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:You mean other than being a endlessly updating money driven enterprise of bs rules which constantly outdate and force out to spend more money in order to actually play in their tournaments?

Oh my, you are so right. Magic has totally bs rules, whereas 40k has the best rules ever (I mean, the 'roll off in case of a rules argument' rule is a great basis for competitive play). You have obviously never played magic before. It is one of the best rulesets in existence. There's a reason it was inducted in the game hall of fame a few years ago.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Or how about the fact that even if you do play in the tournaments it boils down to a calculation of strongest cards in current legal edition wins when 40k is based off chance, tactics and dedication to your army (painting and good care).

I'll just repeat my 'obviously never played MTG' statement'. Good decks are a carefully crafted, synergistic whole. Every card or strategy has strengths and weaknesses to be exploited. Unlike competitive 'let's just spam those Long Fangs and call it day' 40k.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Oh or how about when you buy enough 40k stuff you rarely need to buy more ?

In my experience a casual magic player will generally spend less on new cards than a 40k player will on shiny new toys. (I have been a victim of this myself). Competitive players will spend much on both systems.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:How about the standard person who play 40k vs the people who play magic being not only more mature but also intelligent than a 13 year old kid who cries to mom when he wants more card (given 40k has this too but it's rare.)

Interestingly, I have found this to be the opposite, with mtg having the players in their late teens, early twenties with a social life next to the game and wargaming having the 40-something neckbeards acting like they're 12 but that is generalization and subjective, so we'll leave it at that.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Lastly, one is produced by WTOC a company who would sooner give you a kick in the junk before they would give you customer service rather than GW who realizes customer Service is the whole basis of sales.

Yes... GW at least cares for their customers. At least they don't do all that pesky listening to their fans, taking their opinions into consideration, having the public design cards and have sneak peeks behind the scenes.
They have their return policy! Just ask and you'll receive the items you should have gotten in your box (or at least not deformed) in the first place!


Don't get me wrong, I love me some 40k. But MtG has some solid rules, and in general a nicer company (of course, they still want my money, but at least I'm happy to give it to them.)

I have to agree 100% with TiB. He obviously has played a while and knows the ins and outs of higher, competitive play and casual.

Big Mek Wurrzog, you obviously have a bias against MtG, and have not been playing long or just in the wrong circles. I really cant agree with anything in your last post.

Steak wrote:I have to agree 100% with TiB. He obviously has played a while and knows the ins and outs of higher, competitive play and casual.

Big Mek Wurrzog, you obviously have a bias against MtG, and have not been playing long or just in the wrong circles. I really cant agree with anything in your last post.

This.

Seems to be alot of hate between the two hobbies.. either you do both or you hate one of them.

TiB wrote:Don't get me wrong, I love me some 40k. But MtG has some solid rules, and in general a nicer company (of course, they still want my money, but at least I'm happy to give it to them.)

Gotta agree here. GW's customer service isn't the best. Yep if I have a problem with a purchase they fix it right up, but they also do plenty of things that make me, as a customer, scratch my head and go "huh?" regularly. MtG is what it is. Tournement environment is what it is and the reason they limit the cards available in official tournies is specifically due to years of customer complaints. I definitely don't fault WotC for the rules in Magic. I may think some of the rules they've added were kind of silly or dumb, but they were usually well written and well supported. WotC has definitely learned the skill of detailed rules after having questions arise on so many cards in their earlier magic versions and expansions. That is a skill that still *completely* eludes Games Workshop. Of course this kind of learning also takes place when a company refines and imrpoves on its rules instead of recreating them completely new for every new version of the game. When you know where the holes are and where the arguments crop up and then you fill in the holes and make the arguements go away, your customers will be happier in the long run.

Any game that requires more than just a rulebook and your imagination or more pieces than the contents of the game box definitely opens the door of possibility of massive end game costs on the table, whether through cards or miniatures. Simply if you don't want those costs then don't play those games. Or play card games that aren't collectible anymore, like the current Call of Cthluhu card game where everyone can buy all of the exact same cards as anyone else and the skill really is in building the decks to be competitive and not spending a ton of money for your deck to be competitive.

Skriker

Thatguy91 wrote:

Steak wrote:I have to agree 100% with TiB. He obviously has played a while and knows the ins and outs of higher, competitive play and casual.

Big Mek Wurrzog, you obviously have a bias against MtG, and have not been playing long or just in the wrong circles. I really cant agree with anything in your last post.

This.

Seems to be alot of hate between the two hobbies.. either you do both or you hate one of them.

in all due honesty, they're both equally bad. Big Mek Wurrzog, like many here, feel the need to give opinions with very little to no knowledge of the matter. the neckbeards that play 40k say the MtG players spend too much on cards, and the MtG players say 40k is to expensive, the only ne right is the shop owner who both communities give their money to.


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Skriker wrote:

Actually no. You don't need to buy mythic cards
Skriker

fun fact: very few mythics aren't completely worthless. most mythics, like secret rares in yugioh, are only rare, and complete garbage.

Disclaimer: I don't play MTG, so I have no comments to offer on that game or the company that makes it. Or its players, for that matter. I couldn't let this one go though...

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:... rather than GW who realizes customer Service is the whole basis of sales.

Wurrzog... how long have you been playing GW games? I ask because this statement above couldn't be further from the truth. If you told me you were an alien from another planet I'd have an easier time believing that than I would the notion that GW cares for their customers at all.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Disclaimer: I don't play MTG, so I have no comments to offer on that game or the company that makes it. Or its players, for that matter. I couldn't let this one go though...

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:... rather than GW who realizes customer Service is the whole basis of sales.

Wurrzog... how long have you been playing GW games? I ask because this statement above couldn't be further from the truth. If you told me you were an alien from another planet I'd have an easier time believing that than I would the notion that GW cares for their customers at all.

well, when I ordered a box of worldwake from wizards through my LGS , and it didn't come in for 4 months, they sent me a box of planar chaos, a box of worldwake, a card book, and an apology letter. GW would never do that, ever.

remillia_scarlet wrote:fun fact: very few mythics aren't completely worthless. most mythics, like secret rares in yugioh, are only rare, and complete garbage.

But they're still so rare that even the garbage ones cost $2,- a piece, which is not much, but still annoying if you want them for your silly casual deck.

And it's the few that aren't garbage that's the problem. Once a mythic becomes playable in a competitive format, they immediately become redonkedonkelously expensive (Vengevine, Baneslayer, Lotus Cobra, Primeval Titan) not to mention that any planeswalker that gets printed, no matter how bad, starts life as a $40,- card. The only upside to mythics is that the rares got less rare, which kept the price of the second wave of fetchlands down to reasonable levels.

I still think mythics are the biggest mistake WotC made in recent years (for the secondary market, not for them obviously. Hell, Jace 2.0 on his own was probably responsible for most of the Worldwake sales)

remillia_scarlet wrote:well, when I ordered a box of worldwake from wizards through my LGS , and it didn't come in for 4 months, they sent me a box of planar chaos, a box of worldwake, a card book, and an apology letter. GW would never do that, ever.

That is awesome though. They sure do understand customer relations.

I can like any game that comes out with a purpose for collecting it; and for MTG it would be artwork alone. As far as the synergistic avenue of things, i am not here to compare but synergy and min/maxing seems to the be way to run decks in a competitive nature it's a trend since it's inception. My issue isn't with MTG it's with the ultimate goal of WOTC which is really make money and charge raising prices for less and less of the games you love like a drug addiction, sure you get more from a new card set until they re-print your favorite cards,until they make your favorite deck nerfed compared to card 5 years down the road, or until you realize you are pouring money down a drain if you feel it actually pays off as an investment. To me, that isn't concern and caring about your customer that is making a buisness transaction which grantees long term spending for the dedicated and loyal MTG fan and it's just not worth the dump of cash for me.

More power to you if you like cards that state "Cannot be counter no matter the wording" and have another card which says "Will always counter regardless of wording". I played alot of it, just not my cup of tea to let WOTC do these things and still find it an enjoyable pass time. As far as taking customer's into account I have yet to see this done until the company as a whole is hurting at the end of a year of profits... (which is why WOTC suddenly became touchy feely)

All and all i hold no illusions that i will persuade anyone here just getting my annoyances with the game and company behind it off my chest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

remilia_scarlet wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Disclaimer: I don't play MTG, so I have no comments to offer on that game or the company that makes it. Or its players, for that matter. I couldn't let this one go though...

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:... rather than GW who realizes customer Service is the whole basis of sales.

Wurrzog... how long have you been playing GW games? I ask because this statement above couldn't be further from the truth. If you told me you were an alien from another planet I'd have an easier time believing that than I would the notion that GW cares for their customers at all.

well, when I ordered a box of worldwake from wizards through my LGS , and it didn't come in for 4 months, they sent me a box of planar chaos, a box of worldwake, a card book, and an apology letter. GW would never do that, ever.

Incorrect 3 people myself included had issues with GW pieces or box sets, All of these were replaced with no questions asked and delivered in 3 days for myself longest wait was 2 weeks due to a holiday for one of our gamers at my local store. If they do have bad Customer Service I have yet to find it, meanwhile WOTC never offered to re-imburse me on any screwed up cards and/or books saying it was the merchants incentive to do so (Despite them pointing me to WOTC... and i had a receipt)

I find that the tournaments limited cards to new releases mean that MtG has opportunities for new comers to jump in and not worry about two decades worth of card history they need to know about or have put on the table in front of them. Other types of games (I don't know the lingo) do let you draw upon cards from any set, so actually both crowds are served quite well.

I've going to another booster draft this weekend and here everyone has the same chance of getting decent cards out the packets. With constructed decks there is a problem that people with the most money can buy up the most powerful cards, but with booster drafts you can't to work with the cards that come out the packs in front of you. Obviously those with more experience still have the advantage but it's not based on how much money they have.

I really have no problem with any of this because there are approaches to the game that suit everyone. A lot of the mythic rares are just hugely clumsy over powered cards and plenty are not that useful, it's the Planeswalkers and a few others the get the high prices.

And as for the ages of those involved, when I was there everyone was in their 20s. There were no younger teens as with a Games Workshop, but there was one 10 year old who was lovely. And he kicked adults asses.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:My issue isn't with MTG it's with the ultimate goal of WOTC which is really make money and charge raising prices for less and less of the games you love like a drug addiction,

Yes. WotC is a company, not a charity. And tries a lot less desperately to rip us off than GW.

Let's do a little comparison;
30 Space Marines in 1988 cost $18,-, or $6,- for 10 marines. Which, with inflation, is $11,41
10 Space Marines in 2012 cost $37,25.
A 226% price increase.

Rhinos were sold in a 3-pack for $28, or $9,33 in 1988
Which, with inflation, is $17,71. A Rhino in 2012 costs $33,-.
An 86% price increase.

Now mtg:

A booster pack of Arabian Nights containing 8 cards (6 commons, 2 uncommons) cost $1,45 in 1993, so 2 packs (16 cards) cost $2,90. Which, with inflation is $4,51 in 2011.
New packs of Innistrad (15 usable cards) cost $3,95 each.
A 13% price reduction.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:More power to you if you like cards that state "Cannot be counter no matter the wording" and have another card which says "Will always counter regardless of wording".

Even though there isn't a card that says "will always counter" ,that's an easy one. 'Cannot' always takes precedence over 'Can'. So the card cannot be countered.

The rules are watertight. Yes, some corner cases will require some searching through the comp rules, but every situation is covered.

So you have a problem with that and not with the 40k ruleset?

TiB wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:My issue isn't with MTG it's with the ultimate goal of WOTC which is really make money and charge raising prices for less and less of the games you love like a drug addiction,

Yes. WotC is a company, not a charity. And tries a lot less desperately to rip us off than GW.

Let's do a little comparison;
30 Space Marines in 1988 cost $18,-, or $6,- for 10 marines. Which, with inflation, is $11,41
10 Space Marines in 2012 cost $37,25.
A 226% price increase.

Rhinos were sold in a 3-pack for $28, or $9,33 in 1988
Which, with inflation, is $17,71. A Rhino in 2012 costs $33,-.
An 86% price increase.

Now mtg:

A booster pack of Arabian Nights containing 8 cards (6 commons, 2 uncommons) cost $1,45 in 1993, so 2 packs (16 cards) cost $2,90. Which, with inflation is $4,51 in 2011.
New packs of Innistrad (15 usable cards) cost $3,95 each.
A 13% price reduction.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:More power to you if you like cards that state "Cannot be counter no matter the wording" and have another card which says "Will always counter regardless of wording".

Even though there isn't a card that says "will always counter" ,that's an easy one. 'Cannot' always takes precedence over 'Can'. So the card cannot be countered.

The rules are watertight. Yes, some corner cases will require some searching through the comp rules, but every situation is covered.

So you have a problem with that and not with the 40k ruleset?

I would search through the countless cards i use to have to prove to you older editions were not such a way. But even then the price drops are only to match an economy and lower demand as opposed to the days of it's height when it could bleed money easier. My point isn't that MTG vs 40k is better or vice versa but for your money any edition tank is a valid tank no matter where you go; thus better investment. The only way old cards even prove competitive is if a badly worded card can be seen as advantageous due to it being written before a new terminology for a event like "taping mana" or " enemy selection" was created differently.

I think too many people read this post and think I am saying "it's Evil stay away from it." when really my post is "That company has pissed me off in more ways than one, you can feel free to waste your time on it but i won't" I am a magic vet, i use to play for 5 solid years till i did math in my head and measured it against my experiences and thought "screw this, my orks have never dissapointed me [within reason]"

I completely respect your right to have an opinion. I'm not trying to argue one game being better than the other or trying to force you to like magic.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:The only way old cards even prove competitive is if a badly worded card can be seen as advantageous due to it being written before a new terminology for a event like "taping mana" or " enemy selection" was created differently.

I'm not quite sure what you meant by this. If you're an experienced magic player i'm sure you know about oracle rules and them updating older cards so that whats written on the card doesn't really matter. However, if you're talking about older cards just getting surpassed in power and quality by newer cards, then you are totally right. Depending on how far back you go, you can sift through mounds of mediocre to just plain bad cards. Whereas now, they tend to keep most sets fairly balanced.

Again, they have multiple formats to play in competitively so that older outdated cards like Squire dont have to compete with cards like Isamaru. Even so, Squire from the dark is worth $.25 just because its old. That's not a bad price for a dirt common.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Incorrect 3 people myself included had issues with GW pieces or box sets, All of these were replaced with no questions asked and delivered in 3 days for myself longest wait was 2 weeks due to a holiday for one of our gamers at my local store. If they do have bad Customer Service I have yet to find it, meanwhile WOTC never offered to re-imburse me on any screwed up cards and/or books saying it was the merchants incentive to do so (Despite them pointing me to WOTC... and i had a receipt)

very rarely will cards come out "screwed up", almost impossible actually, since you could tell if the cards were damaged from looking at the packaging. you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. just because you don't like the game doesn't mean that it's bad. if you don't like it, don't play.

>the only way old cards even prove competitive is if a badly worded card can be seen as advantageous due to it being written before a new terminology for an event like "tapping mana" or "enemy selection" was created differently.

you, again, have no idea what you're talking about. the "bad wording" as you call it has no impact on a card's play value. like steak said, oracle keeps a database of the errata of every card made. cards like force of will and swords to plowshares have the same playability now that they had back then.

cards that cannot be ____ are part of the game, if you have a problem with it, play another game, same with cards that are indestructable, or protected from everything. when such problems are presented on the table, rather than whine that you can't beat them, try playing around them, that's how these kinds of games work. as for cards being garbage, that's true, then again, my 4 favorite cards: putrid imp, bridge from below, breakthrough andlion's eye diamond were once considered garbage, but have become key components to a top tier deck.


as for customer service, GW isn't much better, they've been one hassle after another for my LGS.

remilia_scarlet wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Incorrect 3 people myself included had issues with GW pieces or box sets, All of these were replaced with no questions asked and delivered in 3 days for myself longest wait was 2 weeks due to a holiday for one of our gamers at my local store. If they do have bad Customer Service I have yet to find it, meanwhile WOTC never offered to re-imburse me on any screwed up cards and/or books saying it was the merchants incentive to do so (Despite them pointing me to WOTC... and i had a receipt)

very rarely will cards come out "screwed up", almost impossible actually, since you could tell if the cards were damaged from looking at the packaging. you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. just because you don't like the game doesn't mean that it's bad. if you don't like it, don't play.

>the only way old cards even prove competitive is if a badly worded card can be seen as advantageous due to it being written before a new terminology for an event like "tapping mana" or "enemy selection" was created differently.

you, again, have no idea what you're talking about. the "bad wording" as you call it has no impact on a card's play value. like steak said, oracle keeps a database of the errata of every card made. cards like force of will and swords to plowshares have the same playability now that they had back then.

cards that cannot be ____ are part of the game, if you have a problem with it, play another game, same with cards that are indestructable, or protected from everything. when such problems are presented on the table, rather than whine that you can't beat them, try playing around them, that's how these kinds of games work. as for cards being garbage, that's true, then again, my 4 favorite cards: putrid imp, bridge from below, breakthrough andlion's eye diamond were once considered garbage, but have become key components to a top tier deck.


as for customer service, GW isn't much better, they've been one hassle after another for my LGS.

I think you are clearly reading into something and inserting your own opinions on what i mean to say. An example of old school vs new school would be comparing the strength of monsters back in the day. The point is like all games people will want money for it, and i understand that. Yet the endless search for up to date cards turns into an endless search for viability within your deck if you play to try and make ends meet in a hobby by recycling the older stuff for newer at depreciated value hopefully having amassed enough to cover even 1/3 the expense of your new deck this year to be viable and get LGS credit or the like... to me it just got insulting to know the only true purpose in my cards would be if I liked the artists and their works... Because to me that just a symbol for needless excess.

40k isn't much better but at least it's a hobby, something to invest time into and get better with it from use and time. No matter what i buy it won't be wasted but i might be tempted for a sexier look

P.S. I think it's funny you say i whine like a bitch when all i've talked about is the crap about the game not mechanics really at all. But I would dare you to look into decks from the 90's and compare them again the 2000's and then conversely against it's newest things. You will find a shocking level of "ubering" over the years even from basic cards. This isn't a bad thing but its obviously my point of saying you are wasting money unless you like the artwork. So in a way, thank you for proving my point. Your last statment about how things have become top tier decks, is the exact reason why i don't play your game everyone builds identical decks if they have the money to be "top tier". If you don't see a problem with your own terminology then you won't see much point in these words I left. But honestly, I could care less; MTG isn't my game and neither is proving something moot to people who want to throw around personal insults over a rubbish game. Adieu and try being a little more butch in a unnecessary debate

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:I think too many people read this post and think I am saying "it's Evil stay away from it." when really my post is "That company has pissed me off in more ways than one, you can feel free to waste your time on it but i won't" I am a magic vet, i use to play for 5 solid years till i did math in my head and measured it against my experiences and thought "screw this, my orks have never dissapointed me [within reason]"

You obviously don't play ork speed freeks. I had an ork army at one point. It was speed freeks and I converted a whole bunch of 1/35 scale WWII half tracks into trukks and some 1/35 scale SPGs into battle wagons. I sold the army off in pieces and then was happy when the next codex came out because the army was then completely unusable. My genestealer cult army was introduced in Rogue Trader. By 3rd edition it was completely unsupported and gone. Anyone out there with Squat armies? For 3rd edition WFB I had a chaos army made up of warriors and beastmen and an "undead" army. Within 2 editions of the game neither army was usuable as built because they were both split into completely separate armies. I had the choice to stop playing my 2 complete armies or spend the cash to upgrade 1 or all of them into usable armies again. No thanks.

I think it is just kind of silly that you are demonizing WotC for doing things that GW has also done for years as well. When they bring out a new codex it is clear that they don't really care if your army will still be usable in the new version or not. In fact the more differences there are the more money they make off of you buying new replacement minis. This has been going on pretty much as long as the games have been alive. Heck in the shift from 3rd edition WFB to 4th a large number of armies and allied contingents completely disappeared from the game never to return. Heck even as recently as this year the Grey Knights codex came out along with a White Dwarf sisters ofd battle codex that completely disposed of any Daemonhunters and Witchhunters armies out there as now parts of them no longer exist as valid unit choices.

GW's methods have angered me more than any other company I have dealt with in the gaming world specifically because they do things that invalidate aspects of my armies all the time. I still have fun playing the games, though, so keep playing them. I just find it kind of funny to see you dislike WotC so much for doing things that GW has been doing far longer than WotC has.

Skriker wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:I think too many people read this post and think I am saying "it's Evil stay away from it." when really my post is "That company has pissed me off in more ways than one, you can feel free to waste your time on it but i won't" I am a magic vet, i use to play for 5 solid years till i did math in my head and measured it against my experiences and thought "screw this, my orks have never dissapointed me [within reason]"

You obviously don't play ork speed freeks. I had an ork army at one point. It was speed freeks and I converted a whole bunch of 1/35 scale WWII half tracks into trukks and some 1/35 scale SPGs into battle wagons. I sold the army off in pieces and then was happy when the next codex came out because the army was then completely unusable. My genestealer cult army was introduced in Rogue Trader. By 3rd edition it was completely unsupported and gone. Anyone out there with Squat armies? For 3rd edition WFB I had a chaos army made up of warriors and beastmen and an "undead" army. Within 2 editions of the game neither army was usuable as built because they were both split into completely separate armies. I had the choice to stop playing my 2 complete armies or spend the cash to upgrade 1 or all of them into usable armies again. No thanks.

I think it is just kind of silly that you are demonizing WotC for doing things that GW has also done for years as well. When they bring out a new codex it is clear that they don't really care if your army will still be usable in the new version or not. In fact the more differences there are the more money they make off of you buying new replacement minis. This has been going on pretty much as long as the games have been alive. Heck in the shift from 3rd edition WFB to 4th a large number of armies and allied contingents completely disappeared from the game never to return. Heck even as recently as this year the Grey Knights codex came out along with a White Dwarf sisters ofd battle codex that completely disposed of any Daemonhunters and Witchhunters armies out there as now parts of them no longer exist as valid unit choices.

GW's methods have angered me more than any other company I have dealt with in the gaming world specifically because they do things that invalidate aspects of my armies all the time. I still have fun playing the games, though, so keep playing them. I just find it kind of funny to see you dislike WotC so much for doing things that GW has been doing far longer than WotC has.

Gimmick armies (save the squats example) are pretty obvious when people get into them man... same as your unhinged card set you know this won't be around forever. This was also done during a time in which 40k had alot of crap it needed to trim the fat off of. Armies are dropped due to a lack of interest not the other way around which is the model I have seen of WOTC "Something popular? New release/edition hurry capitalize on something that doesn't need changes!" 40k really only swaps editions after at least a stem of 5+ years or more and normally only after complaints are too high about current editions.

I do play speed freaks (all methods of orky combat actually), the difference between your statement and MTG is that your army would still work just fine in most 40k tourneys not just not the regional sort of ones. as far as your issues with WFB honestly not connected to that, i hate the system always have and always will it's too regimented and magic OP for my enjoyment. Personally i think you are splitting hairs on this example though as modeling is something very few tourneys care about especially if you explain the need/desire for mismatched models. If i was to go to my LGS today and buy magic cards, then in less than 18 months I will see that money no longer being viable at the same LGS due to legal decks.

codexes change but if you had a genestealer cult in comparison to the most more stable options than you need to reside yourself to "change" my first army was necrons before they even had a codex man. Back in the day when you were suppose to fight them like the last chancers. I was ecstatic they got a codex and then found them to be boring and unsatisfying to me so i became an ork it was my choice to jump ship even though i had been offered other options. MTG limits your choices eventually no matter what you do unless you play to screw around, which does hold it's merits but considering it's at least 50 bucks to start a decent deck that is like buying a game which invariably will no longer be respected.... just a bad choice but people do it. This is all IMO, again i need to state this; you won't be swaying me and I am entitled to hate a company and state why when asked in a topic, please keep your aggro in check mk? I attacked a company not people.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:[codexes change but if you had a genestealer cult in comparison to the most more stable options than you need to reside yourself to "change" my first army... This is all IMO, again i need to state this; you won't be swaying me and I am entitled to hate a company and state why when asked in a topic, please keep your aggro in check mk? I attacked a company not people.

Firstly never said it wasn't your opinion and never said you weren't entiteld to it. Just that *I* think it is silly to be upset with one company and not the other since they both do similar things, which is of course *MY* opinion. So chill with the thin skin. No aggro was involved. Also never said you attacked people either...not sure what that quantifier is for. I did find your reply interesting in that you had plenty of rationalizations for whenever GW made some radical changes or disposed of things but then refuse to give WotC even the slightest bit of leeway. Of course given that Magic sales are still going strong and GW sales continue to slack off it is clear which company the general gamer market is more supporting of. I really don't feel any allegiance to either of them. They are companies that make games and as they make things I like I'll buy from them. I honestly buy more GW stuff than MtG stuff anymore, but that is because the GW side is much more than just playing the game. Modelling and painting are hobbies in and of themselves and "deck building" doesn't really come close to the enjoyment level of model building and/or model painting for me.

As for the first part I quoted why should I be resigned to change playing a generstealer cult? The original genestealer cult army list was an official army in the Warhammer 40k Compendium for Rogue Trader. It was one of the earliest official army lists for the game at that right behind Space Marines, Orks, Eldar and the fancy chaos lists. It only became a "niche" because GW didn't give it any more support after that and forced it into the niche. Then once it was a niche force it was dumped.

Skriker

Skriker wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:[codexes change but if you had a genestealer cult in comparison to the most more stable options than you need to reside yourself to "change" my first army... This is all IMO, again i need to state this; you won't be swaying me and I am entitled to hate a company and state why when asked in a topic, please keep your aggro in check mk? I attacked a company not people.

Firstly never said it wasn't your opinion and never said you weren't entiteld to it. Just that *I* think it is silly to be upset with one company and not the other since they both do similar things, which is of course *MY* opinion. So chill with the thin skin. No aggro was involved. Also never said you attacked people either...not sure what that quantifier is for. I did find your reply interesting in that you had plenty of rationalizations for whenever GW made some radical changes or disposed of things but then refuse to give WotC even the slightest bit of leeway. Of course given that Magic sales are still going strong and GW sales continue to slack off it is clear which company the general gamer market is more supporting of. I really don't feel any allegiance to either of them. They are companies that make games and as they make things I like I'll buy from them. I honestly buy more GW stuff than MtG stuff anymore, but that is because the GW side is much more than just playing the game. Modelling and painting are hobbies in and of themselves and "deck building" doesn't really come close to the enjoyment level of model building and/or model painting for me.

As for the first part I quoted why should I be resigned to change playing a generstealer cult? The original genestealer cult army list was an official army in the Warhammer 40k Compendium for Rogue Trader. It was one of the earliest official army lists for the game at that right behind Space Marines, Orks, Eldar and the fancy chaos lists. It only became a "niche" because GW didn't give it any more support after that and forced it into the niche. Then once it was a niche force it was dumped.

Skriker

I hear what you are saying about genestealers cults, my issue is that in the big rule book iirc back in those days it was the pre-nid army. So when they announced nids why didn't you just change over to that saying your men who were changing were just converted genestealers? To me, its a pretty simple fix as nids assumed a proper role during that book and this was the main reason they were removed. All and all i am not saying 40k is a more balanced or better system its something i prefer as opposed to synergizing cards and endlessly trying to find OP combos in the deck. I mean the most annoying thing about that tactic to me is that people think they are clever looking up those combos online, or scouring through endless cards to find it... for me if i have 1-15 things to choose from and tweak them as I see fit it's much more favorable to my gameplay.

at least we agree about it from a hobby aspect that you can put more love into the game of 40k than magic.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:at least we agree about it from a hobby aspect that you can put more love into the game of 40k than magic.

Wait we agreed on something?? That is totally unacceptable!!

Cheers!
Skriker

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:at least we agree about it from a hobby aspect that you can put more love into the game of 40k than magic.

I'm busy extending the art of my entire dredge-deck. There are whole armies of mine I've put less hours into .

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
P.S. I think it's funny you say i whine like a bitch when all i've talked about is the crap about the game not mechanics really at all. But I would dare you to look into decks from the 90's and compare them again the 2000's and then conversely against it's newest things. You will find a shocking level of "ubering" over the years even from basic cards.

funny you say that, because most of the legacy staples are from the 90's and early 2000's

This isn't a bad thing but its obviously my point of saying you are wasting money unless you like the artwork. So in a way, thank you for proving my point.

>you are wasting money unless you like the artwork

funny you say that, my dredge deck cost me less than, much less than 1/4/ of my blood angels army, in fact, 40k is much more expensive than magic.

Your last statment about how things have become top tier decks, is the exact reason why i don't play your game everyone builds identical decks if they have the money to be "top tier".

oh, and they don't do that in 40k?

If you don't see a problem with your own terminology then you won't see much point in these words I left. But honestly, I could care less; MTG isn't my game and neither is proving something moot to people who want to throw around personal insults over a rubbish game. Adieu and try being a little more butch in a unnecessary debate

but you keep posting in this thread..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
this also talks about the players who try to say they're legacy only because they only have older cards.

funny you say that, because most of the legacy staples are from the 90's and early 2000's

This is relevant why? The point of my post was to show you an established trend nearly 30 years in the making.... not a concept of legacy I played up till 2007.

funny you say that, my dredge deck cost me less than, much less than 1/4/ of my blood angels army, in fact, 40k is much more expensive than magic.

Case in point, is that deck legal in tournaments? If so how long will it remain that way? How much will you get for trades/ selling to build your new deck. Then compare how often you need to cycle your blood angels army for parts and pieces, or to legality, or for anything in general. Simply put you sound like an adept user of MTG, If i could track down how many decks you built for X amount of years and compared it to how easily you have replaced your money it turns into you spending less immediately but WAY more overtime. It's the Investment vs Rent Arguement. The thing is if you are serious gamer of either and played both for a decade as fervently as the other you are destine to exceed my investments due to you funding MTG for each new legality swap.

oh, and they don't do that in 40k?

Once, like most games I enjoy how many times have you? I buy what i want and it stays that way.

but you keep posting in this thread...

Mostly cause someone keeps feeling the urge to say "You're stupid" rather than give my my opinion or reach an understanding some people hate your game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
this also talks about the players who try to say they're legacy only because they only have older cards.

You realize this illustrates my point perfectly right? Legacy = older card players outside of legality, while MTG constantly updates to invalidating your investment over time. So the main point of my Argument is that Magic is designed primarily to bleed you of money giving you more or less the same cards only "stronger" the newer they get. So when i state "if you honestly love the artwork then it is an investment you can apperciate cause that means you don't care about legality." as opposed to someone who likes the game for mechanics which ... well you are supporting more or less a drug habit. More power to you if you want to do it, MTG was fun but only in unofficial ways to me i eventually saw no point in endlessly spending money and wanting to focus on things that in 10 years are still just as worth my time in EVERY facet.

I did another draft this weekend with the proper release of Dark Ascension, won only one of four games. I think I had a good deck though but some really bad luck on the land. I had 17 in a 40 card deck yet struggled to draw it out which seems unlikely but there you are.

Some tremendous cards in the new set though. I'm building a red/green werewolf set that has lots of potential. I'm looking at building a red/white or red/green deck for competitive play, and try something a bit different.

I was going to do red/white but I think I need the mana ramp that only green will give. I intend to go light on the creatures, stuff mainly for mana creation (Llanowar Elves) and things that work out free (Priest of Urabrask) or something that can produce 1/1 counters. After that I would chock fill with spells to take control of the other player's creatures to attack and then have various cards to destroy them for extra damage or mana (Fling or Infernal Plunge) and a heap of Incinerate and Blasts with a couple of Increasing Vengeance to duplicate these when convenient. There's also a couple of green cards that can just cancel battle damage for a turn, in case the opponent has more creatures than I can handle.

Thoughts?