Whats so wrong about MTG?

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**TiB**

You're not buying a $3000,- deck for one tournament. Most players will build up their collection of power over many years and then have the pieces to build all manner of vintage decks.
And even if one were to drop that kind of cash for a single tournament, the resale value is 100%.

I find a $30.000,- deck hard to believe. Short of playing with graded power and blue hurricanes I don't even see how it would be possible (at market prices).

Everyone here seems to focus on tournament magic, while it's the casual magic that I have most fond memories of. You don't have to buy $50,- cards to beat your friends. I've built lots of fun decks for under $10,-.

**Da Boss**

Indeed. Casual magic is what most people play in my experience and it's a fun game. I played in university briefly and I was always impressed at the design of the game. In the end though, I found CCGs aren't my thing, but Magic is king for a reason.

**Steak**

TiB wrote:I find a $30.000,- deck hard to believe. Short of playing with graded power and blue hurricanes I don't even see how it would be possible (at market prices).

While unlikely, I dont think its out of the question. In my experience, elitist MtG players fething love to spend stupid amounts of money on cards that are rarer. Either signed, altered, foreign or what have you.

I'm taking a break this year for personal reasons, but I've been playing magic for the past 10 years. It CAN become expensive if you want to compete in tournaments, but if you play friendly games then there is no reason you have to spend more than ~$40 for a decent, fun deck.

I share a collection with a friend of mine, and aside from power nine, have pretty much everything. I absolutely LOVE magic. Its so deep and strategic that I haven't lost interest after 10 years. I love competitive and casual magic, they are 2 different things entirely. In the next year I would really like to make a run at the Pro Tour. For those that don't know, its basically professional MtG.

My absolute BIGGEST gripe with 40k (started playing early this year) is the goddamned rules. They can be so convoluted at times and there is no official word from GW about clarification. "Roll on it"...FFS are you kidding me? I realize its supposed to be more casual but there shouldnt be this many issues with conflicting rules. If there is ever a rule in question in MtG rules, it will get answered. There is only ONE case of WotC not clarifying rules that I've ever heard of (because it involved really old, confusing cards that no one plays with).

/endrant

**Rented Tritium**

chromedog wrote:At tournament level, players spend more on a deck per release or season than many 40k players do (I've not known ANY miniatures players to drop more than $3000 on an army for one tournament. I've known several M:TCC (Magic: The cash cow) players whom did.).

This also runs the risk at the larger events of having your expensive pile of cards stolen (like the estimated $30,000 USD valued tier 1 deck stolen at GenCon this year).

That's not standard though. Prices like that can only exist in legacy or vintage, which could be compared to apocalypse.

In standard season, players are not spending more than 300$ on a deck and they are more than likely selling 200+ of that to pay for next season.

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TiB wrote:I find a $30.000,- deck hard to believe. Short of playing with graded power and blue hurricanes I don't even see how it would be possible (at market prices).

Certain legacy decks can get there if they're full of promos and beta.

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Steak wrote:
My absolute BIGGEST gripe with 40k (started playing early this year) is the goddamned rules. They can be so convoluted at times and there is no official word from GW about clarification. "Roll on it"...FFS are you kidding me? I realize its supposed to be more casual but there shouldnt be this many issues with conflicting rules. If there is ever a rule in question in MtG rules, it will get answered. There is only ONE case of WotC not clarifying rules that I've ever heard of (because it involved really old, confusing cards that no one plays with).

I want Matt Ward to sit down for a long chat with MaRo.

**TiB**

Renter Tritium wrote:Certain legacy decks can get there if they're full of promos and beta.

No they can't. I stated in my post that I was going by the cheapest versions of cards. And even without that, only vintage has any kind of shot at those prices.

good article on legacy pricing

As you can see, the most expensive deck in the list, Team America, doesn't even hit $1900. You could create a more expensive deck by chucking expensive cards together, but $1900 is about the most you'd be paying for a competitive deck.

I myself, playing too little to justify having 30 or more $50+ cards lying around, sold off most of my legacy collection and now solely play Dredge, which you can put together for a hefty $150,-, and just last week t4-splitted a sizeable tournament.

Now as for vintage, I admit I'm less at home there then in legacy but I took what I thought to be the most expensive competitive deck, Stax (originally $t4ks, the $4k solution), and calculated its +- worth using the most pimped out versions of everything. So beta's all around, foil and asian wherever possible (because who doesn't love paying $150,- for a $3,- card), judge gifts etc.
At didn't top $14.000,-. A lot of dough for 75 pieces of cardboard sure. But not even half of $30k.

The only way you could go higher is by including graded cards, for example the PSA 10 Lotus that's been on eBay for some time for $100k. But that would be silly, and you wouldn't play with them because they're in their cases.

**Necroshea**

I've started to warm up to the idea of peasant tournies (whatever it's called, using only commons), but none of my friends are game. It gives me a sad face.

**Skriker**

Steak wrote:My absolute BIGGEST gripe with 40k (started playing early this year) is the goddamned rules. They can be so convoluted at times and there is no official word from GW about clarification. "Roll on it"...FFS are you kidding me? I realize its supposed to be more casual but there shouldnt be this many issues with conflicting rules. If there is ever a rule in question in MtG rules, it will get answered. There is only ONE case of WotC not clarifying rules that I've ever heard of (because it involved really old, confusing cards that no one plays with).

I agree that if you have to have a rule in your rules that says if there is a disagreement about the rules roll it off, then you aren't writing tight rules. As for the ONE case you are refering to in Magic I do play with those cards. The majority of my cards are from Alliances or earlier, with a smattering of a booster box here or there of others since then. Mind you I don't let some confusing cards mess with the fun, though.

Skriker

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Necroshea wrote:I've started to warm up to the idea of peasant tournies (whatever it's called, using only commons), but none of my friends are game. It gives me a sad face.

Back when magic first came out I *only* played in local tournies with a common deck. Never cared one iota when I had to deal with the "I'm searching through your deck for the card we are playing ante for" types either. They would flip through the deck and then whine that it was all commons. Shut them up right straight especially when I had a green common Bear up for ante while they actually had a rare card for ante without me cheating and trying to force them to play ante for a specific card. Won plenty of rares that way and really angered the jerky players who were just trying to rip people off.

Skriker

**Deep Throat**

I used to love Magic the Gathering. However, I have now completely quit due to both the game mechanics and fluff.

As for the game, I still find it fun casually, and fun new multiplayer systems have been made for that type of play. However, on both the casual, and ESPECIALLY, the tournament levels, MTG is a game where the biggest wallet wins. While Warhammer may have some imbalances, at least there's a point system. MTG is horribly unbalanced in that you have to be serious about it and financially committed to do well.

On terms of fluff, the industry went from establishing interesting settings with good stories of the inhabitants interacting with the world to centralizing EVERYTHING around a few individuals called Planeswalkers. While different planes and the ability to travel throughout the mutliverse has always been an important concept in the game's history and having some of the early important characters be planeswalkers, I've found it dry that the story has reduced to an elite few with god-like abilities instead of a host of new characters with each new setting. Anyway, time to get off the soap box.....

**Steak**

Deep Throat wrote:MTG is a game where the biggest wallet wins. While Warhammer may have some imbalances, at least there's a point system.

I totally respect your opinion, but I have to disagree.

Yes, some of the top tier decks/cards can get expensive. But Wizards doesnt set that price, they sell all their cards for the exact same price inside a booster pack. The price of the cards is dependent on the market and what deck is popular at the time. Remember Baneslayer Angel? It used to be called walletslayer because they were ~$50 a piece and you HAD to have 4 of them. Now they're ~$5.

GW on the other hand dictates their own price for their minis, which is definitely overpriced. A lot of people speculate (I haven't been playing long enough) that when they release a new codex, they purposely make units that were worse in the last one, that you had less of, better, so you have to buy them to have better units. A big reason a lot of people play is only for the faction/fluff that they like.

Personally, 40k is very fun, but not a very good game.

**Skriker**

Steak wrote:I totally respect your opinion, but I have to disagree.

Yes, some of the top tier decks/cards can get expensive. But Wizards doesnt set that price, they sell all their cards for the exact same price inside a booster pack. The price of the cards is dependent on the market and what deck is popular at the time. Remember Baneslayer Angel? It used to be called walletslayer because they were ~$50 a piece and you HAD to have 4 of them. Now they're ~$5.

GW on the other hand dictates their own price for their minis, which is definitely overpriced. A lot of people speculate (I haven't been playing long enough) that when they release a new codex, they purposely make units that were worse in the last one, that you had less of, better, so you have to buy them to have better units. A big reason a lot of people play is only for the faction/fluff that they like.

Personally, 40k is very fun, but not a very good game.

But the more boosters you buy the bigger chance you have of getting those better cards, which has always been a big part of Magic. If you had a lot of money you could buy a ton of boosters and usually end up with all the cooler cards from the latest set. Still though in my experience the impact of this was limited by casting costs and the like and the mechanics for the game. At least in the older sets a more powerful card had a higher casting cost and was harder to get on to the table when you really wanted it. I found that TSR's old Spellfire game was much more prone to the "the guy who bought the most cards wins" syndrome because there wasn't really much difference between playing one card or another in the mechanics which meant that if you had better cards you could more easily dominate the game. Of course Spellfire is long dead and buried, but magic is still going strong.

I agree with your comment about 40k. It is defiinitely spot on calling 40k very fun, but not necessarily a "good" game.

Its rules are not necessarily bad, but they are poorly written and left too open ended. You'd think after 5 editions of 40k and 8 editions of Warhammer Fantasy they'd have figured out how to write detailed and "specific" rules to keep the over table arguements to a minimum, but alas not.

Skriker

**Steak**

Skriker wrote:But the more boosters you buy the bigger chance you have of getting those better cards, which has always been a big part of Magic. If you had a lot of money you could buy a ton of boosters and usually end up with all the cooler cards from the latest set.

One of the more unique aspects of magic is that even if you dont have the cards that are going for top dollar from a set, you can still do well with cheaper decks (obvisouly depending on the tournament format and your opponents). As mentioned earlier, Dredge is much cheaper than other decks in its format and still as effective. I was playing standard right around the time jace 2.0 came out and easily beat the U/W control decks with a R/W runflare trap deck. The entire deck was about the same price as one Jace.

Like you said as well though, even the expensive uber cards are still fairly balanced. Wizards playtests very, very extensively. Most of what I'm talking about is very dependent on other factors. Like the cards in the format, the current metagame, your opponents skill vs yours, and just luck.

**TiB**

Deep Throat wrote:On terms of fluff, the industry went from establishing interesting settings with good stories of the inhabitants interacting with the world to centralizing EVERYTHING around a few individuals called Planeswalkers. While different planes and the ability to travel throughout the mutliverse has always been an important concept in the game's history and having some of the early important characters be planeswalkers, I've found it dry that the story has reduced to an elite few with god-like abilities instead of a host of new characters with each new setting.

As a matter of fact, with the fluff reboot/turnover during Time Spiral they severely reduced the power of planeswalkers. They used to be god-like beings with the power to raze a planet. Now they're just ordinary individuals that happen to be able to skip between worlds (this spark comes with an amount of spellcasting talent, but certainly not as much as it used to be).

The main difference between the old way and the new way is that it used to be 3 'world'-books per cycle, now it's 1 world-book per cycle and 1 planeswalker book. So yes, they focus more on the individual 'walkers and less on the worlds, which is a pity, as the world-trilogies used to really give an in-depth look at the world they were on (the Ravnica-cycle is still one of my favourites among all fantasy books). The planeswalker books are ok too though, and are still less centered around an individual than the old-old books, where literally 'everything' was first about Urza and then Gerrard + posse.

**ChocolateGork**

MTG is fun. And if your really good you can actually make quite a bit of money.

**Iur_tae_mont**

I play casual MTG at the FLGS after the 40k gets packed up for the day. About once a Year, I'll buy the new Black/green deck (same colors I've been playing for about 8 years) for about 10-12 bucks at walmart. And if I can't afford to buy models at the FLGS this visit (or if they just don't have any I want) I'll pick up a pack of cards.

My Warhams is my game of choice though. the Magic Players will be there all night, the 40k guys have to be home by dinner or the wives will yell at them.

**Dr. Temujin**

Honestly, it's the one nerd-ish game all my friends got into and are playing. I wish more were richer/interested in 40k, but Magic is fine as well. We always have a blast playing it, though.

**Skriker**

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I play casual MTG at the FLGS after the 40k gets packed up for the day. About once a Year, I'll buy the new Black/green deck (same colors I've been playing for about 8 years) for about 10-12 bucks at walmart. And if I can't afford to buy models at the FLGS this visit (or if they just don't have any I want) I'll pick up a pack of cards.

My only problem is that I can't play casual MTG at my FLGS as they still impose the current card allowance rules even in the casual play times, which pretty much keeps me out of the equation, as my decks contain cards running all the way back to the Unlimited set and Arabians.

My friends and I are getting the decks together again, though, so magic time is starting to happen more often again.

Have 6 decks built right now, and working on getting together a few more.

Skriker

**Steak**

Skriker wrote:
Iur_tae_mont wrote:I play casual MTG at the FLGS after the 40k gets packed up for the day. About once a Year, I'll buy the new Black/green deck (same colors I've been playing for about 8 years) for about 10-12 bucks at walmart. And if I can't afford to buy models at the FLGS this visit (or if they just don't have any I want) I'll pick up a pack of cards.

My only problem is that I can't play casual MTG at my FLGS as they still impose the current card allowance rules even in the casual play times, which pretty much keeps me out of the equation, as my decks contain cards running all the way back to the Unlimited set and Arabians.

My friends and I are getting the decks together again, though, so magic time is starting to happen more often again. Have 6 decks built right now, and working on getting together a few more.

Skriker

If they are nazis about enforcing the format restrictions, you should try to get them to play EDH. Its very fun and incredibly easy to build decks for, because it uses pretty much everything except unglued. If you dont know the rules I could link you.

**Uelrindru**

I started playing magic around revised and loved it, I would play with friends into the night and sometimes the morning many a year till after college. With the advent of Kawagazi or whatever it was called I reallized Wizards was going to go out of their way with every set to completely change the game and I was no longer interested in changing my deck to match that.
Power creep didn't help and games being over in two to four turns in the normal meta didn't make we want to play the game any more. I liked a fun game to chit chat with friends while you played. It turned into a tourny game, I didn't care and stopped playing right then. I recently sold a bunch of old cards along with a black/white touch of everything else deck I had that I had spent years collecting to start 40k.

**Iur_tae_mont**

Skriker wrote:
Iur_tae_mont wrote:I play casual MTG at the FLGS after the 40k gets packed up for the day. About once a Year, I'll buy the new Black/green deck (same colors I've been playing for about 8 years) for about 10-12 bucks at walmart. And if I can't afford to buy models at the FLGS this visit (or if they just don't have any I want) I'll pick up a pack of cards.

My only problem is that I can't play casual MTG at my FLGS as they still impose the current card allowance rules even in the casual play times, which pretty much keeps me out of the equation, as my decks contain cards running all the way back to the Unlimited set and Arabians.

My friends and I are getting the decks together again, though, so magic time is starting to happen more often again. Have 6 decks built right now, and working on getting together a few more.

Skriker

The players around here are kinda like that, but I tell everyone beforehand "Hey, this is a Current Black/Green deck, but I swapped out one of the monsters fot Golgari Grave Troll(my fav card in the game) Is that ok?" If not I swap it out for a more current card that fits the deck (since this one is a Morbid Deck, I'll usually switch out for a critter with Deathtouch)

Since my FLGS doesn't really carry Tau or Daemons, I usually buy a pack of cards (or the new deck when a series comes out) and usually have a good collection to choose from.

**Skriker**

Steak wrote:[If they are nazis about enforcing the format restrictions, you should try to get them to play EDH. Its very fun and incredibly easy to build decks for, because it uses pretty much everything except unglued. If you dont know the rules I could link you.

Already familiar with it, but still get fed up with silly deck building restrictions. So I play with friends and as I said the playing is getting busy again. We just go through phases and magic is waxing right now and heading to high sanction.

Skriker

**Maelstrom808**

Meh, I started playing casually when they started making complete theme decks, and when they stopped so did I. I have no desire to buy a bunch of booster backs where only a third of the cards are worth anything to me, them go through the hassle of trying to trade off what I don't want. Likewise, I have no desire to pay rediculous prices for individual cards.

**TiB**

Maelstrom808 wrote:complete theme decks, and when they stopped so did I

?
They have never stopped doing that. In fact, the last few years they've gone overboard with making theme decks going from just a few theme decks per set to show the mechanics off to having event decks (precons that are actually not terrible), premium all-foil decks, planeswalker v. planeswalker decks and special multiplayer expansions.

**Skriker**

Actually got to play 4 games of Magic last night. Was very happy. Helping teaching a friends son how to play too. Showed him how quickly things can change in a game of magic when he gloated that he had 44 life (from an annoying aura card that gave him 4 life whenever he attacked or blocked with the enchanted creature) and I killed him in 4 turns from that point.

Needless to say he was not happy.

He'll be a good player eventually. He already has a pretty devious mind, but his decks rely too much on big heavy hitters that will crush you if the game goes too long. I try to make decks that have some heavy hitters included, but don't rely on them solely to get the job done. He has already come very far and it is interesting watching him speed through all the deck building phases that we all went through when we were new to the game. It is nice to see his fresh excitement for the game and it is really generating a lot of new enthusiasm for us old salts now too.

Might have to break out my decipher Star Trek cards and my Mythos cards again soon. Getting the CCG playing bug again.

Skriker

**Maelstrom808**

TiB wrote:
Maelstrom808 wrote:complete theme decks, and when they stopped so did I

?
They have never stopped doing that. In fact, the last few years they've gone overboard with making theme decks going from just a few theme decks per set to show the mechanics off to having event decks (precons that are actually not terrible), premium all-foil decks, planeswalker v. planeswalker decks and special multiplayer expansions.

Just took a look and sure enough, there they are. 4-5 years ago I looked for some and there were none to be had. Looks like it might be time to head down to the local shop.

**grayshadow87**

It's probably already been said, but the expense of the game and the level of douche-tastic behavior from some competitive players cannot be stressed enough. Ultra rares were the breaking point for me, as it forced me into making a choice between spending the same price to buy several different units of minis or a single card that would rotate out of play in a year or two.

**Steak**

grayshadow87 wrote:It's probably already been said, but the expense of the game and the level of douche-tastic behavior from some competitive players cannot be stressed enough. Ultra rares were the breaking point for me, as it forced me into making a choice between spending the same price to buy several different units of minis or a single card that would rotate out of play in a year or two.

Like I just said

Steak wrote:One of the more unique aspects of magic is that even if you dont have the cards that are going for top dollar from a set, you can still do well with cheaper decks (obviously depending on the tournament format and your opponents). As mentioned earlier, Dredge is much cheaper than other decks in its format and still as effective.

I know the exact type of douche you're talking about. I see them everywhere though, you cant pin it just on magic. 40k has its share of douches that get up tight about fractions of an inch, WYSIWYG, rules interpretations etc. Video games has them too, actually, almost ANY game you play you'll find them. As with anything else, it depends on who you know and where you play.

Obviously, I'm trying to defend magic here, as its dear to my heart. It's one of my favorite games of all time.

**Skriker**

Steak wrote:I know the exact type of douche you're talking about. I see them everywhere though, you cant pin it just on magic. 40k has its share of douches that get up tight about fractions of an inch, WYSIWYG, rules interpretations etc. Video games has them too, actually, almost ANY game you play you'll find them. As with anything else, it depends on who you know and where you play.

Sadly this is true. I have found douchey players for pretty much every game I have ever played. They are a subset of gamers in general so one cannot be surprised to find them in groups for all games. My favorite douche was someone who ranted at a friend's well painted army because he didn't flock his bases. The guy ranted on and on about it and then started pulling out his own minis that looked like a 3 years old had thrown up all over them instead of really trying to paint them, but he *did* have flocked bases. Just made me laugh really hard. How can someone who's army looks like so much baby vomit have the audacity to complain that someone else's army, that looks really good, didn't have flocked bases. Just takes all kinds I guess.

Skriker

**Howard A Treesong**

Just started getting into Magic after a little dabble a few years ago.

Much easier than the Star Trek and Star Wars CCGs. I loved the Star Wars one, but damn it was complicated and confused with all the expansions and rarely used rules.

Magic seems good, have found a couple of people to play with and the wife is well into it so good points all round.

**TiB**

^ congrats. You won't be sorry. It's in the gaming hall of fame for a reason.

**The Epic Chaosdude!!!**

Magic is a really fun game. Im not really into competitive game, but I do have a semi-competitive standard deck since my friends usually want to win at all cost. They are good sports, but sometimes they get a bit annoying. I love making themed decks, so EDH is like God send for me. I hate players who only make decks in order to win or just annoy the

out of other players. If its competitve play then Im fine with it and I only blame my self if I loose. But if its just friendly games, then douches who come and play just for gak and giggles make me angry. Im currently running a G/W Human standard deck and EDH dragon deck. I win with them sometimes, but I dont take pride if I win somebody because I know that theres always someone better than me