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Having been to a fair few Tournaments, I am continually surprised by SM players not using the Sgt Signum on their DEV squad. It has always made be shake my head, I mean 3 HB shots at BS 5, a Single LC shot at BS 5, a PC Shot as BS5? It could be a game changer? A 5/6 chance of a hit, 83% hit chance, it just makes me wonder! Anyone else seen this or is it just me?

EDIT Some SM players say "What? Never heard of it" I had one very good SM player who has played SM for years not even know what it was. Basically because he came from a SW army where Longfangs don't get them but FC. His new army is Imperial Fists and he didn't even realise they came with it.

I think the problem is more that Devastators are alien to many players because they are both extremely expensive and not-scoring in Codex Marines and likely not taken frequently.

With that said, they few times I have used them have always resulted in the Signum-buffed weapon rolling a 1 to hit. Nine straight turns playing a Devastator squad and my Signum always resulted in a 1 to hit. The turn I didn't use it and had the Sarge fire his Bolter? Rolled a 3 to hit.

My mate plays Vanilla Marines and almost always takes devastators. As SonicPara said, I always seem to find that the one guy you use the BS5 on is the only guy to roll a one in the whole squad

That said, the fact that you can use it on different weapons each turn seems very helpful, and if you get that hit on a two even once a game, it can make a big difference.

I think Dev's are quite good. I'm not sure on the expensive front, everyone says that but no one has convinced me. 150 points for 4 ML's is pretty good, they get armour, can get a cover save if stuck in a building. The Space Wolves Fire control is great, however you can emulate this by Combat Squading if you bulk up the squad to 10 (Which I think is where people get expensive from).

I find have 4 x ML's is a great addition, the dual ammo and ability to saturate one target is better than 1 missile there another there. Squad of Termies coming at you, 4 krak Missile 2/3 chance to hit, with 5/6 chance for one of them.

Also I like 3 x ML's and 1 x LC although the LC is expensive, hook up the Signum and you have awesome tank blaster.

I am also not sold on Tactical Squads with HW's. I always take a Special Weapon, but because my Squads run around in "Metal Boxes" they can jump out and rapid fire the hell out of the enemy. The HW never fires because he moved getting out of the Metal Box, so just fires a single bolt pistol shot. Give him and the Sgt a Bolter and single special marine (Flamer/ Melta) and fire 18 shots of which approx 12 will hit. Thats pretty good. It also means you never fore go your movement to fire a weapon which could miss therefore you've just wasted both the shot and the movement.

mwnciboo wrote: I find have 4 x ML's is a great addition, the dual ammo and ability to saturate one target is better than 1 missile there another there. Squad of Termies coming at you, 4 krak Missile 2/3 chance to hit, with 5/6 chance for one of them, forcing the Inv saves 5+ or 3+ if SS.

Krak missles are AP3 iirc. Its unfortunate but Krak missles are not going to do squat against them.

mwnciboo wrote: I find have 4 x ML's is a great addition, the dual ammo and ability to saturate one target is better than 1 missile there another there. Squad of Termies coming at you, 4 krak Missile 2/3 chance to hit, with 5/6 chance for one of them

Sorry fair one. EDITED

I use a Devastator squad with 1x LC and 3x ML, but only in a fluffy list. They aren't bad, they just cost way too much. If you take a min-sized squad, the cost isn't so severe, but then you have a unit where every casualty is somebody important, and they're vulnerable to small arms, where tanks aren't. If you take a larger squad, you're paying 16 points a Marine for what amounts to ablative wounds - not a good cost to effectiveness ratio. I do actually use my signum though, that BS5 has helped my lascannon hit on more than one occasion.

Let's look at alternative heavy weapons platforms to compare the cost versus a 5-man 4-ML Dev squad. 2 Typhoon speeders cost 30 points more, but are much more mobile, have AV 10 (which helps in some cases and hurts in others), and sport a heavy bolter too. In this case, their mobility provides them extra protection, allowing them to hover at max range, and it also makes them better able to draw clear LOS to the target. I would also rate the survivability of 2 Typhoons as higher than a 5-man Devastator squad. An autolas Predator is 30 points cheaper, and puts out roughly equivalent firepower (2 S9 AP2 and 2 S7 AP 4 versus 4 S8 AP3). It has front AV13 in its favor, making it much more durable as long as it is deployed and protected intelligently. It can also maintain some semblance of fire on the move (one weapon versus the Dev's none). A rifleman Dread puts out more accurate firepower at a slightly lower S and AP, and retains both mobility and durability for, again, 30 points cheaper (I think? codex not handy).

There are just better options.

mwnciboo wrote:I am also not sold on Tactical Squads with HW's.

As far as Tactical Squads with HWs ... why wouldn't you? You lose exactly one bolter shot when rapid firing (the HW carrier still has a pistol), and gain the ability to fire a powerful heavy weapon at a cost ranging from cheap to free. In some games, you'll want to keep the squad together, but in other situations combat squadding might be more advantageous. In this scenario, the HW gives that backfield combat squad something to do while they're sitting on their objective.

It also means you never fore go your movement to fire a weapon which could miss therefore you've just wasted both the shot and the movement.

Whut? By this logic, you should never fire any heavy weapon ever, because if you miss then you've just wasted the shot. You also shouldn't drive your Tac Squad forward to try and rapid fire because if they all miss, you've wasted the shots. You haven't wasted the shot if you miss, you've simply gambled on a certain chance to hit and your gamble failed. It depends on whether or not the Tac Squad has something better to do - I know my Tactical Squads certainly aren't doing something so vital every turn of the game that tossing a HW shot out there isn't worth it.

Roboute, the Devastator squad also has duality: They can do both anti-infantry and anti-vehicle. Except for the Typhoon, the units you are listing can only do anti-vehicle since they don't have the volume of fire to be truly good anti-infantry. Their only downside is that they're static firepower, which against an opponent that knows what they're doing, will have their LOS denied by proper unit positioning.

I like a 4xML devastator squad with a couple of ablative wounds (usually 7 dudes in the squad). I never forget the signum, either.

Not sure if it counts, but I use my Techmarine's signum to make his squad's meltagun BS5 all the time.



Of course, seeing as it's a single melta shot, they miss anyway, but still...

Whut? By this logic, you should never fire any heavy weapon ever, because if you miss then you've just wasted the shot. You also shouldn't drive your Tac Squad forward to try and rapid fire because if they all miss, you've wasted the shots. You haven't wasted the shot if you miss, you've simply gambled on a certain chance to hit and your gamble failed. It depends on whether or not the Tac Squad has something better to do - I know my Tactical Squads certainly aren't doing something so vital every turn of the game that tossing a HW shot out there isn't worth it.

No a Tactical squad is all about maneouvre, you cannot fire HW's and maneouvre. If tactical squads were RELENTLESS i would say go for it, everytime, without fail, but actually they aren't.

If I don't move my Combat squad or Tac Squad in order to fire the HW, and the HW misses I have sacrificed the ability of Tac squad to move, and fire the rest of it's weapons to just stand still and fire a single HW. This is frankly madness, it means a significant portion of your firepower and movement has gone to waste. If you are doing this you are using the wrong tool for the job.

I use my RHINO's aggressively, and often the ability to Move up, jump out and rapid fire takes the teeth of the imminent enemy assault (every dice roll counts!) so when using a pair of Tactical squads in this manner, do I take 2 x HW which cannot fire when they get out, so they fire a BP each. Or just take a pair of Bolters that can Rapid fire? It's really a question of how I use my Troops (Sgt with Combi Weapon and Powerfist) and the rest as
the excellent Bolter Marines.

And no if you want HW's take vehicles, Walkers, tanks, Fast attack choices, Heavy support choices. I'll give you that Tacs have free or cheap HW (10 point LC is nice!). But overall the cost of the squad does not justify using it as a HW squad (if combat squadded) or as a 10 man Squad, you need to get inside that Critical 12" range and let loose. The enemy doesn't usually line up all nice at 9" and say "Shoot me", so you need to manoeuvre to get into that positon.

Devs, you never move unless there is literally nothing to shoot at, everytime you move them you waste their Firepower. With a Tactical squad the opposite is true, especially if you are using Rhino's etc, I can see the logic of a HW and using the RHino with the HW through the top hatch. But I like my Rhinos to zip everywhere at full speed and pop smoke.

Remember 2/3's of the time you are trying to battle your way through to capture objectives.

mwnciboo wrote:I think Dev's are quite good. I'm not sure on the expensive front, everyone says that but no one has convinced me. 150 points for 4 ML's is pretty good, they get armour, can get a cover save if stuck in a building. The Space Wolves Fire control is great, however you can emulate this by Combat Squading if you bulk up the squad to 10 (Which I think is where people get expensive from).

I find have 4 x ML's is a great addition, the dual ammo and ability to saturate one target is better than 1 missile there another there. Squad of Termies coming at you, 4 krak Missile 2/3 chance to hit, with 5/6 chance for one of them.

Also I like 3 x ML's and 1 x LC although the LC is expensive, hook up the Signum and you have awesome tank blaster.

I am also not sold on Tactical Squads with HW's. I always take a Special Weapon, but because my Squads run around in "Metal Boxes" they can jump out and rapid fire the hell out of the enemy. The HW never fires because he moved getting out of the Metal Box, so just fires a single bolt pistol shot. Give him and the Sgt a Bolter and single special marine (Flamer/ Melta) and fire 18 shots of which approx 12 will hit. Thats pretty good. It also means you never fore go your movement to fire a weapon which could miss therefore you've just wasted both the shot and the movement.

Devs are expensive relative to other codexes (except Chaos). For C:SM it costs 150pts for 5 bodies 4 MLs and 1 BS5 shot, BA get exactly the same for 130pts and SW get 5 Bodies 4MLs, split fire, acute senses, 2 CCWs and counter attack for 115pts. Plus the option for an additional ML and a Cyclone ML wielding wolf-guard.

I personally love Devs but I find other options more cost-effective. 2 AC/Las Predators and a Thunderfire Cannon cost 340pts but offers 4AC shots, 4 Lascannon Shots and 4 Str6 templates (or Str5 and ignores cover :-D) plus they're harder to kill at range.

It comes down to philosopy. A Devastator does cost more than say a predator or 2 typhoons but they also offer better survivability than a vehicle mounted weapon system.

One shaken result, and your vehicle fires nothing. A full devastator squad has 5 ablative wounds with AC3 and hopefully cover providing a 4++ cover save.

So 4 lascannons fire at the predator, 3 hit and at least one glances - the predator is not firing its 3 weapons the next turn. Same 4 lascannons fire at the devastators and 3 wound and if you are in cover only 1 or 2 dead devastators with bolters.

Now people will P and moan about longfangs but they - other than the reduced cost of the HW itself - are not such a great deal. @ 140 for the long fangs with 5 ML versus @250 for the same devastator with 4 ML. The devastators can combat squad so they can - in effect- match the long fangs for split fire. In addition they have the BS5 on one weapon. Finally the devastators have better survivability on the simple fact there are 5 marines with bolters to die before the HW or sergeant with the signum take a hit. Meanwhile the long fangs have nothing but pain to take, the sergeant - that allows them to splitfire or a HW. So given 3 turns of taking fire and suffering 1 casualty each turn, the devastators are going to be down 3 marines with bolters while the long fangs have lost 3 heavy weapons or 2 and the splitfire ability.

mwnciboo wrote:
No a Tactical squad is all about maneouvre, you cannot fire HW's and maneouvre. If tactical squads were RELENTLESS i would say go for it, everytime, without fail, but actually they aren't.

If I don't move my Combat squad or Tac Squad in order to fire the HW, and the HW misses I have sacrificed the ability of Tac squad to move, and fire the rest of it's weapons to just stand still and fire a single HW. This is frankly madness, it means a significant portion of your firepower and movement has gone to waste. If you are doing this you are using the wrong tool for the job...

Many players deal with this issue by buying a full tac squad, then combat squadding them into a heavy weapon half, which camps a rear objective with missile launcher or runs to hold the center with a multimelta--both free--and a "melta-hunter" half, which zooms around in a rhino killing tanks up close and grabs/contests distant objectives. You sacrifice the ability to rapid-fire a target with 7-8 boltguns, but it is still possible to have two melta-hunter units both rapid-fire the same target for the same effect.

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Many players deal with this issue by buying a full tac squad, then combat squadding them into a heavy weapon half, which camps a rear objective with missile launcher or runs to hold the center with a multimelta--both free--and a "melta-hunter" half, which zooms around in a rhino killing tanks up close and grabs/contests distant objectives. You sacrifice the ability to rapid-fire a target with 7-8 boltguns, but it is still possible to have two melta-hunter units both rapid-fire the same target for the same effect.

Yep. Give the sergeant a combi-melta and you still have that with a meltagun in their rhino or razorback while the 5-man squad with a missile launcher camps on an objective or in an open firing lane.

CaptainJay wrote:

Devs are expensive relative to other codexes (except Chaos). For C:SM it costs 150pts for 5 bodies 4 MLs and 1 BS5 shot, BA get exactly the same for 130pts and SW get 5 Bodies 4MLs, split fire, acute senses, 2 CCWs and counter attack for 115pts. Plus the option for an additional ML and a Cyclone ML wielding wolf-guard.

I personally love Devs but I find other options more cost-effective. 2 AC/Las Predators and a Thunderfire Cannon cost 340pts but offers 4AC shots, 4 Lascannon Shots and 4 Str6 templates (or Str5 and ignores cover :-D) plus they're harder to kill at range.

Agree with everything you say here, but I like 2 x Pred with AC and HB and a Dev Squad with 4 ML's. Thunderfire is a bit dodgy with the 1 wound operator...

DAaddict wrote:

Now people will P and moan about longfangs but they - other than the reduced cost of the HW itself - are not such a great deal. @ 140 for the long fangs with 5 ML versus @250 for the same devastator with 4 ML. The devastators can combat squad so they can - in effect- match the long fangs for split fire. In addition they have the BS5 on one weapon. Finally the devastators have better survivability on the simple fact there are 5 marines with bolters to die before the HW or sergeant with the signum take a hit. Meanwhile the long fangs have nothing but pain to take, the sergeant - that allows them to splitfire or a HW. So given 3 turns of taking fire and suffering 1 casualty each turn, the devastators are going to be down 3 marines with bolters while the long fangs have lost 3 heavy weapons or 2 and the splitfire ability.

The issue is the alpha strike and min/max ability. The Long Fangs offer more heavy weapons at a lower cost, making them more effective as a support platform and meaning they have more points to spend on more guns elsewhere, in turn meaning that there will be more hurt put out on the enemy and likely less to take return fire, making the ablative wounds less of an issue.

So sure, in a vacuum compared directly against each other, the 10 strong dev squad has advantages, however as a force multiplier and fire support unit, the Long Fangs are grossly superior due to their 5th weapon and drastically lower cost. Hence why you almost never see SW tournament armies without at least 2 Long Fang units (usually 3) and you rarely see C:SM tournament armies with devastators at all. 140pts for 5 ML's that can engage 2 targets is probably the most cost effective heavy weapons unit in the game, highly effective against anything except 2+sv units and AV14 vehicles, there's relatively little that can pack the same kind of firepower, and nothing that can pack the same kind of firepower for those points with the ability to engage multiple targets.

I would agree on the Long fangs two of them - 280 points = 10 ML. Devastators - 250 points = 4 ML. 2 AC Preds with Las Sponsons - 260 points. 3 Typhoon speeders = 270 points.

Most people will take firepower over survivability everytime.
Can't argue with that but a devastator - with 4 shots versus the 3 typhoons or 2 predators can be debated. 50% of the hits on the devastators do not reduce the effectiveness of the fire generated while the 3 typhoons or 2 predators can spend the entire time dinged and not shooting. So which is better?

Long fangs due to their over-discounted price are no brainers for SW players but they are not all a bed of roses like some want to make them out to be. Primarily being that any casualty suffered directly hurts their damage potential or flexibility.

If you are going to ML spam someone then 2 squads SW Long fangs are the way to go, it annoys the hell out of me but I have to admit it's effective.

Another player at my club runs 2 Dev Squads and a Vindicator and all the rest Tactical Squads at 1750 (no walkers/drop pods/etc) just a Captain and 3 Heavy support and lots of troops. He always does well due to the numbers of Marines he fields.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Not sure if it counts, but I use my Techmarine's signum to make his squad's meltagun BS5 all the time.



Of course, seeing as it's a single melta shot, they miss anyway, but still...

Techmarine has signum? Which codex is this?

leohart wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Not sure if it counts, but I use my Techmarine's signum to make his squad's meltagun BS5 all the time.



Of course, seeing as it's a single melta shot, they miss anyway, but still...

Techmarine has signum? Which codex is this?

Black Templars.

kronk wrote:

leohart wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Not sure if it counts, but I use my Techmarine's signum to make his squad's meltagun BS5 all the time.



Of course, seeing as it's a single melta shot, they miss anyway, but still...

Techmarine has signum? Which codex is this?

Black Templars.

And BT ones also get two wounds. And access to terminator armor (servo arm only, no harness). And access to storm shields. I'll stop now

So BT techmarine is better than an Iron Hands one....Makes me god-damn sick, Matt Ward your are #1 on the IH hit list, come the day of the revolution....

kronk wrote:I like a 4xML devastator squad with a couple of ablative wounds (usually 7 dudes in the squad). I never forget the signum, either.

Same here.

I always go with a squad of 10, because splitting them up into combat squads can be nice.

mwnciboo wrote:

CaptainJay wrote:

Devs are expensive relative to other codexes (except Chaos). For C:SM it costs 150pts for 5 bodies 4 MLs and 1 BS5 shot, BA get exactly the same for 130pts and SW get 5 Bodies 4MLs, split fire, acute senses, 2 CCWs and counter attack for 115pts. Plus the option for an additional ML and a Cyclone ML wielding wolf-guard.

I personally love Devs but I find other options more cost-effective. 2 AC/Las Predators and a Thunderfire Cannon cost 340pts but offers 4AC shots, 4 Lascannon Shots and 4 Str6 templates (or Str5 and ignores cover :-D) plus they're harder to kill at range.

Agree with everything you say here, but I like 2 x Pred with AC and HB and a Dev Squad with 4 ML's. Thunderfire is a bit dodgy with the 1 wound operator...

I think it's generally down to personal preference but the fact if can outrange most stuff with it's 60" range combined with 2+ armour, 3+ cover (thankyou bolster defences) means it hopefully shouldn't take too much fire and can survive a couple of rounds of fire, plus 2/3rds of the time they'll hit the actual thunderfire cannon in which case you get a 'free' techmarine with a servo-harness.

Blood Angels Devastators get them too, and those devs are significantly cheaper than their SM counterparts. 130 points for 4 missiles? Sounds great, and the signum is just gravy. I use two of those squads in my 1,750 jumper list.

I must say i have a dev squad and have never used it i was unawaer it raised it the bs of a model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just looked through my codex again and it allows you to use the signum on one model only in lieu of the sgt firing. Will def use it from now on.

SonicPara wrote:I think the problem is more that Devastators are alien to many players because they are both extremely expensive and not-scoring in Codex Marines and likely not taken frequently.

I would agree but...

mwnciboo wrote:Having been to a fair few Tournaments, I am continually surprised by SM players not using the Sgt Signum on their DEV squad. It has always made be shake my head...

The OP clearly has seen a bunch of people doing this. And people do like the dev fluff- not the most competitive unit, but then again not everyone competes, yeah?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Not sure if it counts, but I use my Techmarine's signum to make his squad's meltagun BS5 all the time.
Of course, seeing as it's a single melta shot, they miss anyway, but still...

o_O Techmarines come with signums o_O?

mwnciboo wrote:

Whut? By this logic, you should never fire any heavy weapon ever, because if you miss then you've just wasted the shot. You also shouldn't drive your Tac Squad forward to try and rapid fire because if they all miss, you've wasted the shots. You haven't wasted the shot if you miss, you've simply gambled on a certain chance to hit and your gamble failed. It depends on whether or not the Tac Squad has something better to do - I know my Tactical Squads certainly aren't doing something so vital every turn of the game that tossing a HW shot out there isn't worth it.

No a Tactical squad is all about maneouvre, you cannot fire HW's and maneouvre. If tactical squads were RELENTLESS i would say go for it, everytime, without fail, but actually they aren't.

If I don't move my Combat squad or Tac Squad in order to fire the HW, and the HW misses I have sacrificed the ability of Tac squad to move, and fire the rest of it's weapons to just stand still and fire a single HW. This is frankly madness, it means a significant portion of your firepower and movement has gone to waste. If you are doing this you are using the wrong tool for the job.

So choosing not to move is not a good ever, eh? You get a free HW with tac squads, and all you are missing out on is 1 dice roll when you rapid fire, or if you stand and rapid fire/shoot long range then you get a HW shot too- for the cost of 1 boltgun round. In the meantime, even if you DON'T use it, you could with your aggressive rhino tactics (and I'd LOVE to play aggressive rhino tac marines vs my aggressive rhino GH ) to move 12", pop smoke, and with 3 squads on the first turn you have created a wall of multimelta bubbles. Any enemy vehicle that comes within 24" is going to cop a S8 Ap1 shot- if they are within 12" you get double pen dice. You've created a trio of 24" bubbles of "do I really want to go in there?", since LoS/cover/the firepower coming from the rest of the SM army has to be considered too. And that's just MM shenanigans, not mentioning in detail the things other HW's can do.
So I would gladly play the price of one bolter round every time I rapid fire in exchange for flexibility in my tactical squad, who's whole shtick is that they are meant to be flexible.

Jihallah wrote: If I don't move my Combat squad or Tac Squad in order to fire the HW, and the HW misses I have sacrificed the ability of Tac squad to move, and fire the rest of it's weapons to just stand still and fire a single HW. This is frankly madness, it means a significant portion of your firepower and movement has gone to waste. If you are doing this you are using the wrong tool for the job.

So choosing not to move is not a good ever, eh? You get a free HW with tac squads, and all you are missing out on is 1 dice roll when you rapid fire, or if you stand and rapid fire/shoot long range then you get a HW shot too- for the cost of 1 boltgun round. In the meantime, even if you DON'T use it, you could with your aggressive rhino tactics (and I'd LOVE to play aggressive rhino tac marines vs my aggressive rhino GH ) to move 12", pop smoke, and with 3 squads on the first turn you have created a wall of multimelta bubbles. Any enemy vehicle that comes within 24" is going to cop a S8 Ap1 shot- if they are within 12" you get double pen dice. You've created a trio of 24" bubbles of "do I really want to go in there?", since LoS/cover/the firepower coming from the rest of the SM army has to be considered too. And that's just MM shenanigans, not mentioning in detail the things other HW's can do.
So I would gladly play the price of one bolter round every time I rapid fire in exchange for flexibility in my tactical squad, who's whole shtick is that they are meant to be flexible.

mwnciboo wrote:
As I said above horses for courses, but I would counter if you are using Tactical Squads to take out vehicles you are using them against the wrong unit. You use a scalpel for surgery, and a meat cleaver for butchery, a nutcracker for cracking nuts, I see it as using the right tool for the job. You can use a cleaver to do surgery, it's crude and it's not ideal, it'll work but not be pretty.

The point I clearly stated above is forgoing 10 marines movement and fire (potentially running as well) to fire 1 marines Heavy weapon. 90% of the time the thing you want to hit with HW will not even be scratched by a Boltgun so your wasting your other 9 marines firepower too. Everyone has a role on the battlefield, a tactical squad is for rolling around in metal boxes shooting enemy troops at close range and capturing objectives.

No, I didn't say lets use a single multimelta in a tactical squad to go hunt tanks. I said it gives you tactical options for your tactical squad, which leads into the 2nd point. It is very true, the HW and the boltguns usually strike different targets, unless your toting a HB or ML. What happens when the enemy is completely mech'd up? On turn 2, you might not have a rapid fire target. Most game's I play I don't have a rapid fire target for every marine squad on the second turn, things are going pretty damn sweet if I do! You're not firing the HW all the time- its about targets of opportunity.

mwnciboo wrote:I would love to fight your Grey Hunters except they are a Tactical squad on steroids and arguably the best troops in the Game. GH are a big bucket load of awesome.

...This is my point. I can do the whole "lets roll in rhino's and get into headbutting contests" with GH or even CSM so much stronger. So- get into a headbutting contest with that lot, or sit back and shoot them more before they come in? Because if it comes down to a rapid fire-charge-countercharge pissing contest, lets just say I've been sinking beers since last week and your not going to win it. In this case, you're better to sit, fire, wait for them to move up, and then counter maneuver to maximize damage and minimize return damage. Because your other contest you won't win (unless the dice are truly on your side)

mwnciboo wrote:As I said above horses for courses, but I would counter if you are using Tactical Squads to take out vehicles you are using them against the wrong unit.

GH and CSM apparently make good tank hunters, with their 2x special weapons packing 2x meltas. Tac squads can pack a melta and a combi on sarge. Tell me, whats the difference between 2 BS4 melta shots and 2 BS4 melta shots?
Those GH and CSM are "good" tank hunters, but they still kill infantry. It's not the same as a unit of say fire dragons- 5 meltaguns is scarier to vehicles than 2. 2 at BS4 and close range is certainly enough to clear out dreads and vehicles that get to close, but here's the catch- the GH would love to get into a punch up with tac marines. If tac sarge has a P.weap or fist, those dragons are a bit antsy about getting into a punch up. If a horde of boyz run screaming at them, those 5 melta's will probably kill 4-5 boyz. Those tac marines/GH are going to rapid fire. fire dragons are specialists- Tac marines and GH are tactically flexible. They can work in any situation, not well but hey- this is warhammer, you get an army, not a unit in a vacuum. They can help the other elements of the army do their job. If 2 BS4 melta shots reliably hurt vehicles in GH or CSM form, then they will work in tac marine form. So if on the first turn I have a dread drop podded onto me and I use my tac squads melta weapons to take it out- Yes, I think I am using my tac squad against the right unit. I COULD put shots into it from my AC/LAS pred for example, but that has a 48" range and can reach out and touch the enemies deployment from turn 1- my meltaguns cant do that, so I'm going to use my long range AT at long range and my short range AT at short range. If the short range doesn't work, I can still fire a lascannon and 2 AC shots into it. It gives me more options than just the AC/Las pred. More...tactical options.

mwnciboo wrote:You use a scalpel for surgery, and a meat cleaver for butchery, a nutcracker for cracking nuts, I see it as using the right tool for the job. You can use a cleaver to do surgery, it's crude and it's not ideal, it'll work but not be pretty.

You've got the whole point of tac squads right here. Yes, I should be using a scalpel for surgery. However I used a cleaver. It's crude (I can be a bit of a crude fella ) and it's not ideal, but it will work. The job is completed, and you are one more step closer to victory.