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So, there is a topic in Tournament Discussions regarding whether or not FW should be allowed in tournaments here.

As crops up in pretty much every FW thread, a few people say that some FW units are overpowered, and some complain the opposite. So, lets hear it, Dakkaroos: What are, in your opinion, the most broken, imbalanced Forge World units and why?

(Please note this thread is not about the monetary cost of FW, how good or bad their casting quality is, etc etc, so please lets try and keep it on topic - thanks!)

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My vote for most unbalanced might be the Lucius-pattern Drop Pod. A drop pod that's 50 points and allows your dreadnought to assault? Blood Angels can take them? Seems undercosted to me.

For me, a lot of the FW "imbalance" is the uneven expansion it gives to different armies.

For an IG player, "allowing" Forgeworld opens up a gazillion of new, different and additional options that he can use to improve his list. To a Necron or Dark Eldar player, "allowing" Forgeworld adds virtually nothing (yes, I know there are one or two fig-leaf units FW made for those).

Thus, bringing FW into the fold "unbalances" the game to the extend that it gives some armies a vastly greater amount of options to choose from, exploit enemy weaknesses and deter the opponent's ability to prepare, know or anticipate his tactics, while it does noting for others. This inevitably skews the game.

I wouldn't let FW in the door of a tournament.

Worst abusers?

I'd say the first is probably death korps. Regular imperial guard platoons can make 55-man power blobs with 5 special weapons and 10 power weapons. In DKoK-land, you can take 66-man power blobs, and they come with WS4, which means that they are 33% more killy against WS3 units, and 25% harder to kill by WS4 units. That and you can take them up to size 66 (which can take an order to give them a 2+ cover save, good luck killing that). That, and instead of being restricted to power weapons, everyone can take POWER FISTS. That and they have even more special rules, all for basically no cost increase, as far as their massive hike in effectiveness is concerned.

No unit, and I mean no unit (not even paladins or purifiers) can beat this unit, and certainly as hell not for its points. Especially when you throw in straken or a priest, and suddenly you're getting furious charge and preferred emeny. Say hello to 36 rerollable S7 power fist attacks...

DKoK also has some other pretty OTT stuff, like the AV14 transport that can carry 50 models and comes with an assault ramp, or that drill thing that can ram vehicles anywhere on the board from somewhere off the board, and then pile out a bunch of melta or plasmagun guys. That and I know they have some other pretty sketchy vehicles as well.

Because, even moreso than GW, which actually needs to care about the quality of its rules set, FW is no more than a company that sells miniatures, and will do whatever it takes to sell them.

What was that IG artillery that was Strength 9 Ordinance AP 2 twin-linked for like 35 points?
Here it is, GRAIA PATTERN RAPIER LASER DESTROYER. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/r/rapier.pdf
40 points for AV 11/10/10 36" Strength 9 AP 1 twin-linked.

Yeah, that's a good one. In order to accomplish this with the nearest codex analogue (sentinels), you'd need to spend 165 points, and you still wouldn't have AV11.

If I had the option to take these, every list of mine would start by putting down the 370 points for 9 of them and then watching as all of my opponent's vehicles and monstrous creatures (and terminators) disappeared by the end of turn 2.

I think you have to be selective in what FW you allow in your tournaments.



The vast majority of FW rules are underpowered/overcosted. Then there are a few that are the opposite.

the DKoK rules are slightly over powered, but they are older rules. I hear they were recently updated, they might be better now.

Things that are simply tack-ons to existing codices I think are ok for the most part.

Contemptor Dreadnoughts, Ceastus Assault Rams, Ork Flak Traks, Dreadmobs, Grot Tanks, and XV9s are all perfectly fine for normal games IMO.

Ailaros wrote:I wouldn't let FW in the door of a tournament.

Worst abusers?

I'd say the first is probably death korps. Regular imperial guard platoons can make 55-man power blobs with 5 special weapons and 10 power weapons. In DKoK-land, you can take 66-man power blobs, and they come with WS4, which means that they are 33% more killy against WS3 units, and 25% harder to kill by WS4 units. That and you can take them up to size 66 (which can take an order to give them a 2+ cover save, good luck killing that). That, and instead of being restricted to power weapons, everyone can take POWER FISTS. That and they have even more special rules, all for basically no cost increase, as far as their massive hike in effectiveness is concerned.

No unit, and I mean no unit (not even paladins or purifiers) can beat this unit, and certainly as hell not for its points. Especially when you throw in straken or a priest, and suddenly you're getting furious charge and preferred emeny. Say hello to 36 rerollable S7 power fist attacks...

DKoK also has some other pretty OTT stuff, like the AV14 transport that can carry 50 models and comes with an assault ramp, or that drill thing that can ram vehicles anywhere on the board from somewhere off the board, and then pile out a bunch of melta or plasmagun guys. That and I know they have some other pretty sketchy vehicles as well.

Because, even moreso than GW, which actually needs to care about the quality of its rules set, FW is no more than a company that sells miniatures, and will do whatever it takes to sell them.

How are they all taking Power Fists? I just read the list in Imperial Armor V, and only the Watchmaster in each Infantry Squad can take a Power Fist. The would equal 7 Power Fists in a full size Infantry Platoon, including the Platoon Command.

Another bitch thread about Forgeworld...

The Death Korps cannot take IG codex units, so no Priest, no Straken. They can't take heavy weapons in squads and each guardsman is more expensive than a regular guy.

Also the Laser Rapier is an ARTILLERY unit, they die to a light breeze making them FAR more easy to kill than sentinels. They also take a Heavy Slot meaning they compete with Russes and Artillery for organization slots.

The Lucius pod has also been nerfed so it immobilizes the Dread in 1/6 chance.

Overall, I would say that the character Dread from IA11 is the most imbalanced, being Venerable and having living metal, but costs more than a Land Raider.

Ailaros wrote:Regular imperial guard platoons can make 55-man power blobs with 5 special weapons and 10 power weapons. In DKoK-land, you can take 66-man power blobs, and they come with WS4, which means that they are 33% more killy against WS3 units, and 25% harder to kill by WS4 units. That and you can take them up to size 66 (which can take an order to give them a 2+ cover save, good luck killing that). That, and instead of being restricted to power weapons, everyone can take POWER FISTS. That and they have even more special rules, all for basically no cost increase, as far as their massive hike in effectiveness is concerned.

I'd argue that 3 extra points per Guardsman is fairly steep, when they start at 5 points. Also, I don't see fists available to sergeants.

Especially when you throw in straken or a priest, and suddenly you're getting furious charge and preferred emeny. Say hello to 36 rerollable S7 power fist attacks...

Given that they're not technically imperial guard, I don't believe that Straken or priests are legal.

DKoK also has some other pretty OTT stuff, like the AV14 transport that can carry 50 models and comes with an assault ramp,

I thought that, regardless of FW or no, superheavies are illegal outside of Apocalypse scale games?

or that drill thing that can ram vehicles anywhere on the board from somewhere off the board, and then pile out a bunch of melta or plasmagun guys.

The only unit that can use this can take demo charges, but otherwise are basically guardsmen with shotguns and carapace armor (no special weapons options).

I get that you don't like FW (or at least seem to doubt their balance), but it also seems like you're not too well informed about what options they actually have. Maybe there's some update I missed, where watchmasters count as officers? Seriously, I'm not seeing it.

@Ailaros I am slightly confused by your first post about the DKoK. There is no option that I can see for them to be able to take Straken. Also the Platoon Command Squad does not have the combined squad rule for them to join a 60-man blob unit. As far as the use of the Gorgon goes, if it is a standard tournament and not an Apoc tournament, no one would be able to bring them as they are not part of the standard DKoK army list. So really there are very few issues with the DKoK that I can see.

As far as what I have seen to be "OP" from Forge World, would be something like the GRAIA PATTERN RAPIER LASER DESTROYER that was mentioned earlier, but even then those are still "Experimental rules" (for those of you who don't think FW does any play testing). I have been running my local tournaments and have been allowing Forge World armies and units (pending TO approval) as long as they bring the most recent book with the rules for the army/units they are using. I have not had any issues with this so far.

There are units in every codex that people claim to be "OP", weather it being the IG Vendetta, cheap Space Wolf Long Fangs, or the "whole Gray Knight book". You just need to analyse what the units weaknesses are and exploit them.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Regular imperial guard platoons can make 55-man power blobs with 5 special weapons and 10 power weapons. In DKoK-land, you can take 66-man power blobs, and they come with WS4, which means that they are 33% more killy against WS3 units, and 25% harder to kill by WS4 units. That and you can take them up to size 66 (which can take an order to give them a 2+ cover save, good luck killing that). That, and instead of being restricted to power weapons, everyone can take POWER FISTS. That and they have even more special rules, all for basically no cost increase, as far as their massive hike in effectiveness is concerned.

I'd argue that 3 extra points per Guardsman is fairly steep, when they start at 5 points. Also, I don't see fists available to sergeants.

Especially when you throw in straken or a priest, and suddenly you're getting furious charge and preferred emeny. Say hello to 36 rerollable S7 power fist attacks...

Given that they're not technically imperial guard, I don't believe that Straken or priests are legal.

DKoK also has some other pretty OTT stuff, like the AV14 transport that can carry 50 models and comes with an assault ramp,

I thought that, regardless of FW or no, superheavies are illegal outside of Apocalypse scale games?

or that drill thing that can ram vehicles anywhere on the board from somewhere off the board, and then pile out a bunch of melta or plasmagun guys.

The only unit that can use this can take demo charges, but otherwise are basically guardsmen with shotguns and carapace armor (no special weapons options).

I get that you don't like FW (or at least seem to doubt their balance), but it also seems like you're not too well informed about what options they actually have. Maybe there's some update I missed, where watchmasters count as officers? Seriously, I'm not seeing it.

Yeah, I missed some of the stuff he said, but the Death Korps can't do pretty much all those things. I suggest reading the actual book and playing the list before screaming OP!!!!

The Hades drill must take the awful engineers who can't take special weapons. Also you are right in that the Gorgon is apocalypse only and is actually unavailable to the Death Korps list.

Other vehicles unallowed are Chimeras, Valkyries, Vendettas, Basilisks, Medusas, Griffons and Bombards plus a whole other boatload of options, so if you are taking Death Korps, you pretty much are only allowed to take the basic guardsman so they damn well better be good otherwise, why would you ever use the IA list over codex IG?

There seems to be way too much overpowering with Forge World units. Better off just asking your opponent to write their own, as long as they aren't someone who fundamentally does not understand why there are limits, and does stuff like writes data sheets for "if the officer passes the order, he can issue another order until he fails."

Snarky wrote: why would you ever use the IA list over codex IG?

I run a Armored BattleGroup because I like tanks... that's about the only reason . Oh and the Vanquisher is not useless in the ABG list!

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:There seems to be way too much overpowering with Forge World units.

If, as others have suggested, you actually look at the FW stuff, it's about the same as regular 40k, not generally OP.

There are some things that are overpowered, some that are on the mark, and some that are underpowered. The only major difference is that people generally know what to expect from standard 40k OP stuff, but are blindsided by FW OP stuff, because people don't run it as much.

Ouze wrote:My vote for most unbalanced might be the Lucius-pattern Drop Pod. A drop pod that's 50 points and allows your dreadnought to assault? Blood Angels can take them? Seems undercosted to me.

It's now 65 points and if you assault on the turn you land, you have to make a dangerous terrain check first. Blood Angels may not take them outside of Apoc games (they aren't on the list of codecies that allow them). The Drop Pods also don't get any guns or a locator beacon.

And I agree with you on their over-powered-ness.

Ailaros wrote:I wouldn't let FW in the door of a tournament.

Worst abusers?

I'd say the first is probably death korps. Regular imperial guard platoons can make 55-man power blobs with 5 special weapons and 10 power weapons. In DKoK-land, you can take 66-man power blobs, and they come with WS4, which means that they are 33% more killy against WS3 units, and 25% harder to kill by WS4 units. That and you can take them up to size 66 (which can take an order to give them a 2+ cover save, good luck killing that). That, and instead of being restricted to power weapons, everyone can take POWER FISTS. That and they have even more special rules, all for basically no cost increase, as far as their massive hike in effectiveness is concerned.

No unit, and I mean no unit (not even paladins or purifiers) can beat this unit, and certainly as hell not for its points. Especially when you throw in straken or a priest, and suddenly you're getting furious charge and preferred emeny. Say hello to 36 rerollable S7 power fist attacks...

DKoK also has some other pretty OTT stuff, like the AV14 transport that can carry 50 models and comes with an assault ramp, or that drill thing that can ram vehicles anywhere on the board from somewhere off the board, and then pile out a bunch of melta or plasmagun guys. That and I know they have some other pretty sketchy vehicles as well.

Because, even moreso than GW, which actually needs to care about the quality of its rules set, FW is no more than a company that sells miniatures, and will do whatever it takes to sell them.

I think this is the first time I've ever seen the DKoK list complained about. The 50 model transport is a superheavy that requires games to allow superheavies (e.g. apoc games) and isn't an "always available" option. Yeah, they're power blobs are better, they also lack chimeras, heavy weapons in infantry squads (only have heavy weapon squads and IIRC no special weapon squads), and their infantry units cost *20%* more than their codex equivalents. They have no veterans option (engineers are not veterans), no Valks/Vendettas, fewer special weapon upgrade availability options, most of their heavy weapons squads are more expensive, their artillery options are supremely fragile, etc.

They also cannot take Straken or Priests, they are their own list, not an addition to the IG Codex.

The list is available for free on FW's website, if you take the time to actually read it, I think you'll see it's anything but OP.

Ailaros wrote:There seems to be way too much overpowering with Forge World units

Take the time to actually read them and you'll find the truth is far different. Aside from a small clutch of relatively recent SM stuff, you'll find complaints are very rare.




The only FW units I have an issue with that I've come across recently are the Dread drop pods. They adjusted the invicilandraider enough that it's useable and the Caestus as well got a 50pt price bump from its original cost.

Ouze wrote:
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My vote for most unbalanced might be the Lucius-pattern Drop Pod. A drop pod that's 50 points and allows your dreadnought to assault? Blood Angels can take them? Seems undercosted to me.

If my memory serves correctly, that update is from before the Blood Angels got an actual book.

Per Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2(the most recent publication with rules for the Lucius-pattern Drop Pod), Blood Angels are specifically singled out from being able to take them. They're also 65 points, rather than 50.

Anyways, I really think that for the majority of units Forge World has overpriced the units. Things like the Drop Sentinels, the Tauros, etc feel a bit too hefty in points costs.

When we talk about things like Vultures or Hell Talons, there's a bit of a difference. They can be priced a certain way and be balanced, but the problem is that if your opponent isn't aware that you'll be dropping flyers on the field it can pose problems.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:There seems to be way too much overpowering with Forge World units.

If, as others have suggested, you actually look at the FW stuff, it's about the same as regular 40k, not generally OP.

There are some things that are overpowered, some that are on the mark, and some that are underpowered. The only major difference is that people generally know what to expect from standard 40k OP stuff, but are blindsided by FW OP stuff, because people don't run it as much.

Did you not see what I posted above? 40 points for a 36" Strength 9 AP 1 Twin-Linked Front Armour 11 artillery.
That's 360 points for 9 of these...yeah I wouldn't play against that list.

What, no mention of the impossible to kill, can fire all weapons while moving, cover ignoring Land Raider Achilles?

Luke_Prowler wrote:What, no mention of the impossible to kill, can fire all weapons while moving, cover ignoring Land Raider Achilles?

Not impossible to kill, just very tough - even nids can one shot it.

Compared with, say, the imbalance of Wolf Guard costing the same basic number of points as Tactical Marines, or Long Fangs and Grey Hunters costing less than their Codex Astartes equivalents while having superior rules, Forge World's output is a model of balance - their potent units and vehicles are at least more expensive than their standard equivalents.

Okay, my fault with the hyperbole. But it's not that it 'can' be killed because anything with stats can be killed, but the amount of effort in order to pop it. It ignores lance weapons and has a passive -1 to damage rolls (I forget if it also ignored melta, but I doubt it would be that bad) and it's still av 14 all around , so anything str 8 is not going to cut it. You'd be forced to use str 9-10 weapons or something with 2d6 pen in order to not glance the thing, and with the -1 you may only shake it anyway, and it'll still fire back thanks to Machine Spirit. And if your hard hitting attacks are in melee or ramming? the classic " I move half a millimeter and now half your attacks whiff" happens, assuming the thunder cannon or the two multi-meltas don't kill it first

rigeld2 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:What, no mention of the impossible to kill, can fire all weapons while moving, cover ignoring Land Raider Achilles?

Not impossible to kill, just very tough - even nids can one shot it.

Only 4 things can pen it in Nids.

Heavy Venom Cannons but need a 6 and can at most wreck it.
Rupture Cannons.
Canifexes, but need a 6 or 5+ dependent on Adrenal Glands. Broods of 3 with Crushing Claws are good for it but insanely expensive and very inflexible.
Old One Eye. See Carnifexes but will die much quicker than 3 strong broods.

Deadshot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:What, no mention of the impossible to kill, can fire all weapons while moving, cover ignoring Land Raider Achilles?

Not impossible to kill, just very tough - even nids can one shot it.

Only 4 things can pen it in Nids.

Heavy Venom Cannons but need a 6 and can at most wreck it.
Rupture Cannons.
Canifexes, but need a 6 or 5+ dependent on Adrenal Glands. Broods of 3 with Crushing Claws are good for it but insanely expensive and very inflexible.
Old One Eye. See Carnifexes but will die much quicker than 3 strong broods.

You know that MC still get their 2D6 to pen right?

English Assassin wrote:Compared with, say, the imbalance of Wolf Guard costing the same basic number of points as Tactical Marines, or Long Fangs and Grey Hunters costing less than their Codex Astartes equivalents while having superior rules, Forge World's output is a model of balance - their potent units and vehicles are at least more expensive than their standard equivalents.

To be fair, the Space Wolves Codex is an abomination of epic poportion. The most imbalanced, uninspired and least thought-through Codex to hit the game in decades. It's not much of a Benchmark you are setting here. And just because the game has to already deal with turds like the Space Wolf book, doesn't mean it would improve by adding even more crap to the mix.

Zweischneid wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Compared with, say, the imbalance of Wolf Guard costing the same basic number of points as Tactical Marines, or Long Fangs and Grey Hunters costing less than their Codex Astartes equivalents while having superior rules, Forge World's output is a model of balance - their potent units and vehicles are at least more expensive than their standard equivalents.

To be fair, the Space Wolves Codex is an abomination of epic poportion. The most imbalanced, uninspired and least thought-through Codex to hit the game in decades. It's not much of a Benchmark you are setting here. And just because the game has to already deal with turds like the Space Wolf book, doesn't mean it would improve by adding even more crap to the mix.

Tell us how you really feel about the Space Wolves 'dex.

Zweischneid wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Compared with, say, the imbalance of Wolf Guard costing the same basic number of points as Tactical Marines, or Long Fangs and Grey Hunters costing less than their Codex Astartes equivalents while having superior rules, Forge World's output is a model of balance - their potent units and vehicles are at least more expensive than their standard equivalents.

To be fair, the Space Wolves Codex is an abomination of epic poportion. The most imbalanced, uninspired and least thought-through Codex to hit the game in decades. It's not much of a Benchmark you are setting here. And just because the game has to already deal with turds like the Space Wolf book, doesn't mean it would improve by adding even more crap to the mix.

I've never had difficulties beating SW. They're not as powerful as GK, say.
Not that neither of those armies are NOT overpowered but forgeworld is a whole different level.

I think Phil Kelly ran over his dog when he was six

When you ban Forgeworl because some choices are good, why not ban the good codizies? Why not check every unit choice if it is fair?

Anyone already checked the players and tournament organisation if they are fair and just?

Sasori wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:What, no mention of the impossible to kill, can fire all weapons while moving, cover ignoring Land Raider Achilles?

Not impossible to kill, just very tough - even nids can one shot it.

Only 4 things can pen it in Nids.

Heavy Venom Cannons but need a 6 and can at most wreck it.
Rupture Cannons.
Canifexes, but need a 6 or 5+ dependent on Adrenal Glands. Broods of 3 with Crushing Claws are good for it but insanely expensive and very inflexible.
Old One Eye. See Carnifexes but will die much quicker than 3 strong broods.

You know that MC still get their 2D6 to pen right?

I did not. I thought it was full blown Oldcron Living Metal.