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shamroll wrote:As for the most OP, I would say some of the SM HQ's in the Badab war books are pretty OP. In book 2 is a librarian which gives all infantry (except terminators and those in vehicles) infiltrate. Another one lets you upgrade one unit so their bolters, bolt pistols, and storm bolters fire hellfire rounds.

Ahazra Redth. The Mantis Warriors Librarian. I can firmly say, as someone who has been a part of a Badab campaign, using Ahazra Redth as my HQ... It's not OP. It's good, for sure. But you have try very hard to make a list work with Infiltrate. It definitely approaches the game differently. But OP? No way. Space Wolves are more OP than giving my guys infiltrate. It just requires the opponent to think outside the box and come up with creative solutions to your problems. And most of the time, this can be done without changing your list.

I feel the Badab characters should be legal, as they're intended to be used to add flare to the C:SM book. They're different, but not necessarily better, and they make for interesting lists.

The biggest issue with this thread is the people complaining about "OP" units have never played with or against them, or have used the wrong rules with them. Grab a book (which are available in easy to find digital forms), play some games, and make a list that nobody can beat. I would be impressed if they were any more oppressive than GK or SW. It's just... being forced to think differently. And people don't like thinking.

rigeld2 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:However, it still doesn't specify that those are the only valid books for normal play, only that the army lists which are included in Codex books contain the descriptions and required characteristics and costs required to use them in battles, not that other army lists in non-codex book aren't allowed.

It's simply saying "there are army lists in the codex books that have X,Y,Z needed to play", not "these books are the legal army options".

Permissive rule set - if it doesn't say it's allowed, it isn't.

I'll have to get you the line from the front of the IA books that states they are to be used as if part of the armies codices (or somthing along those lines). Don't have em in front of me atm, at work and all that.

Honestly, a lot of perceived OP FW units are just seen that way because its new and scary. If some of the more normal units or lists were commonplace, most of us would adapt and overcome. People in this thread keep pointing out how awesome a certain unit is, and how OP it is, but quickly glaze over the downsides of it. Medusa siege gun? It dies to a stiff breeze. Rapier lasier destroyer? Same thing. Blight drones? A good unit, but far from unkillable, not to mention the overall quality and competitiveness of the C:CSM book.

Are the units bad? Hell no, they're quite good. Are they OP? I'm of the opinion that the majority of FW stuff is quite balanced. Don't forget all the terrible units FW puts out that are completely forgotten about and ignored in favour of pointing out the OP ones. Most of the units are no more OP than a lot of other units in current codices. Blood Talon and Psychic flying dreads, thunderwolf cavalry, paladins, manticores, TH/SS termies, Long Fans, the list goes on.

Frankly, if FW was more prevalent, the game would have even more variety, and variety is never a bad thing.

Ailaros wrote:No unit, and I mean no unit (not even paladins or purifiers) can beat this unit, and certainly as hell not for its points. Especially when you throw in straken or a priest, and suddenly you're getting furious charge and preferred emeny. Say hello to 36 rerollable S7 power fist attacks...

A Furioso Dreadnought with Blood Talons, or a Death Company Dreadnought with Blood Talons could beat that unit. and at 125 points for either of the Dreads.

A Unit of Purifiers could beat that unit as well if they got the charge.

latrodectus wrote:Another one lets you upgrade one unit so their bolters, bolt pistols, and storm bolters fire hellfire rounds.

He's essentially a Master of the forge with a 5+ inv. save and one unit upgrade. Considering he's got (in my opinion) pretty uninspiring wargear choices (no means of doing much other than standing around while shooting, but given magic power jumpropes for all of that melee he's fighting in)), I'd say that, if you're willing to take a lackluster special character for a nice rule, more power to you.

There are far better choices to call OP from those books, though.

It's refreshing for someone calling FW stuff overpowered to have at least read something by FW, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

Ailaros wrote:No unit, and I mean no unit (not even paladins or purifiers) can beat this unit, and certainly as hell not for its points. Especially when you throw in straken or a priest, and suddenly you're getting furious charge and preferred emeny. Say hello to 36 rerollable S7 power fist attacks...

A Furioso Dreadnought with Blood Talons, or a Death Company Dreadnought with Blood Talons could beat that unit. and at 125 points for either of the Dreads.

A Unit of Purifiers could beat that unit as well if they got the charge.

Actually, I'd argue that he's correct: no unit should be able to beat it, because it should never be on the table, going back to the part where it's illegal.

rigeld2 wrote:
Permissive rule set - if it doesn't say it's allowed, it isn't.

It has nothing to do with being permissive or not, it's not saying that the codex's are *the* source for unit rules, only that yes, they have rules.

Notice that it's talking about rules needed to play with models. Page 3 talks about the game being played with Citadel Miniatures (thereafter referred to as "models"). page 86 says the *army lists* in the codex books have rules to play with those models. Those army lists do not cover all Citadel models designed and produced for Warhammer 40,000 play by Games Workshop within the scope of the rules presented by the rulebook. By your reading, an Eldar Night Spinner would be a permission only unit since it is not actually in a codex, and there is no codex entry for "Cadian Shock Troops" or the like.

I always think this excerpt is helpful:


GW owns the game. They have not said that only units in the Codex are allowed, and as has been brought up, have specifically made units in other publications allowed in the game. RAW, FW units are allowed in regular games. They advise you to let you opponent know and make sure it is ok with them, because it may be unexpected, and it is good manners, but that is always the case in a wargame. They don't say indicate permission is needed to make them 'legal', just that it is polite, and good sportsmanship.

So lets drop the RAW discussion and get back topic. GW says it's allowed. That is their interpretation of the rules, and they are the ultimate authority on rules interpretations (see errata, WD, etc.) There is no point on arguing whether or not FW units are allowed according to the rules, because GW says they are.

Whether you will play against them is another matter entirely. But, again, that is true of ANY unit. I've seen plenty of people who refuse to play against Necrons, GK, BA, and any number of other 'legal' armies. That is always their prerogative. But the rules themselves are clear.

spiralingcadaver wrote:Actually, I'd argue that he's correct: no unit should be able to beat it,.

He said no unit CAN beat it.

I gave two examples of units that could beat it.

DeathReaper wrote:

spiralingcadaver wrote:Actually, I'd argue that he's correct: no unit should be able to beat it,.

He said no unit CAN beat it.

I gave two examples of units that could beat it.

Also, for the same cost you can get 90 Ork Boyz with Nobs and Power Klaws with Ghaz guaranteeing you the charge. That will also own those guardsmen pretty hard.

DeathReaper wrote:

spiralingcadaver wrote:Actually, I'd argue that he's correct: no unit should be able to beat it,.

He said no unit CAN beat it.

I gave two examples of units that could beat it.

Did you read the part of the sentence you deleted? Because that was the part that I'd argue matters.

So, there's this unit I just made up that doesn't exist anywhere: Terminator Devastators. They're all armed with assault cannons on their heads and stormshields on their lightning claws (which makes their storm shields twin-linked, and rubbing them together makes a static charge that counts as a heavy flamer or a jump pack) and they cost 10 points each.

I could argue that they're unbeatable, and you can argue that you could kill them with a titan, but it doesn't matter because they don't exist.

See how that works?

Poor Ouze. He just wanted a thread that could address the most OP units from FW, so that these arguments could be put in a bit more context.

But, we devolved into this nonsense almost immediately.

For Eldar, the Hornet is pretty OP. It's basically a Vyper with free upgrades like dropping Open Topped, getting an extra weapon, and more armor.

The Wasp is also fairly ridiculous. It's basically just a War Walker, but it's a Troops choice, freeing up the overcrowded HS slots.

The Warp Hunter is pretty balanced. I'd actually prefer a Fire Prism over it, but I wouldn't mock anyone that disagreed.

Shadow Specters are absolutely terrible. They're basically unplayable in their current form.

Grakmar wrote:
The Wasp is also fairly ridiculous. It's basically just a War Walker, but it's a Troops choice, freeing up the overcrowded HS slots.

But the number of Wasp Assault Walker Squadrons in an army is limited by the amount of Corsair Squads you have in the army--meaning you're effectively using 2 Troop slots for 1 War Walker Squadron.

Kanluwen wrote:

Grakmar wrote:
The Wasp is also fairly ridiculous. It's basically just a War Walker, but it's a Troops choice, freeing up the overcrowded HS slots.

But the number of Wasp Assault Walker Squadrons in an army is limited by the amount of Corsair Squads you have in the army--meaning you're effectively using 2 Troop slots for 1 War Walker Squadron.

Ah, I wasn't aware of this change. I'm only familiar with the old experimental rules.

Grakmar wrote:Poor Ouze. He just wanted a thread that could address the most OP units from FW, so that these arguments could be put in a bit more context.

But, we devolved into this nonsense almost immediately.

For Eldar, the Hornet is pretty OP. It's basically a Vyper with free upgrades like dropping Open Topped, getting an extra weapon, and more armor.

The Wasp is also fairly ridiculous. It's basically just a War Walker, but it's a Troops choice, freeing up the overcrowded HS slots.

The Warp Hunter is pretty balanced. I'd actually prefer a Fire Prism over it, but I wouldn't mock anyone that disagreed.

Shadow Specters are absolutely terrible. They're basically unplayable in their current form.

Also, Shadow Spectres have 18" range as of IA11 and a "frag missile" secondary firing mode. They did lose AP2 though.

Grakmar wrote:
For Eldar, the Hornet is pretty OP. It's basically a Vyper with free upgrades like dropping Open Topped, getting an extra weapon, and more armor.

That implies a Vyper is appropriately costed, which it laughably is not.

Grakmar wrote:
The Wasp is also fairly ridiculous. It's basically just a War Walker, but it's a Troops choice, freeing up the overcrowded HS slots.

Who cares, it can't score.

acekevin8412 wrote:
Also, Shadow Spectres have 18" range as of IA11 and a "frag missile" secondary firing mode.

One "frag missile" for the whole unit, not per guy.

Grakmar wrote:Ah, I wasn't aware of this change. I'm only familiar with the old experimental rules.

See, this is another problem. It's not a problem in that Forgeworld release experimental rules - this is a good thing, since they do take feedback on the unit and make changes for the official entry in a book. But that people base their opinions directly off the experimental rules, not knowing they changed in the book. take the example of the Achilles. It was completely ridiculous when they released experimental rules. The rules in the book are a lot more manageable. They still pose a problem to some armies like bugs, but it's nowhere near as dead hard as its experimental rules were, and a lot of opinions on the Achilles come directly from the experimental rules, particularly parts of the rules that were removed for the official entry.

Is the Caetus Assault Ram the same?

Deadshot wrote:Is the Caetus Assault Ram the same?

I believe it got a notable cost increase, but stayed about the same, otherwise.

How much.of an increase. Just a rough estimate like +35 or something.

Deadshot wrote:How much.of an increase. Just a rough estimate like +35 or something.

From its original experimental rules, it went up in cost equal to about that of a Rhino with Extra Armour.

Good, decent price then. I might get one once I get a job next year. I would get one.now but I would need to be 16 and I am 15 in 6 days.

acekevin8412 wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Poor Ouze. He just wanted a thread that could address the most OP units from FW, so that these arguments could be put in a bit more context.

But, we devolved into this nonsense almost immediately.

For Eldar, the Hornet is pretty OP. It's basically a Vyper with free upgrades like dropping Open Topped, getting an extra weapon, and more armor.

The Wasp is also fairly ridiculous. It's basically just a War Walker, but it's a Troops choice, freeing up the overcrowded HS slots.

The Warp Hunter is pretty balanced. I'd actually prefer a Fire Prism over it, but I wouldn't mock anyone that disagreed.

Shadow Specters are absolutely terrible. They're basically unplayable in their current form.

Also, Shadow Spectres have 18" range as of IA11 and a "frag missile" secondary firing mode. They did lose AP2 though.

I also think they were Heavy Support in the experimental rules, but are now Fast attack as well.

I don't think the Shadow Spectres are TOO bad. I like a lot of the other stuff better. I think the Nightspinner was moved to FA as well, in IA11 for the Corsairs list at least.

I think the blight drone sounds interesting. Maybe they'll put something like it in the next CSM book?

For the record, Shadow Spectres' prism rifle got a second firing profile:
the original focused one, and a "dispersed" one ie the frag missile. So a unit can have 3 for 105pts moving and shooting at 18".

That still doesn't make them overpowered. It just makes gives them essentially a SM missile launcher that can move and shoot, but loses what, two thirds of its range? Fair trade off. And definitely a unit I want to play against. More aspect types when fighting against Eldar is always fun.

I'm reading the krieg "codex" thing right now here http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/k/kreig.pdf and to be honest I'd have to say that it feels fairly balanced to me. They're brutal when they can make it straight at you and smash your face in, but they're really lacking in speed, and if you could outrun them or outflank/deepstrike and take out their heavy artillery, you would really wreck their army. Notice that they have no Vendetta's/valks, sentinels, or chimeras. Their only dedicated non-apoc transport is an open topped AV-11 tractor thing that looks like it would die in a stiff breeze. They also have no access to plasma (which is wierd, you would think they'd love a weapon that packs punch and has the possibility to fry their own guys)

That said, I would love to use this list in normal games, as I love using powerblobs and this army is made from the ground up with them in mind. I would love to see my opponent's face when I tell him I've got a 66man powerblob packing powerfists and melta bombs. That said, having no really mobile attack options would suck, but that's what you get, strengths and weaknesses. Get a boost in one area and you're going to take a hit in another. Not to mention that almost all of their units are more expensive than regular guardsmen, and that hurts more as well. To really buff them to their most diabolical potential, they'd be taking up roughly half your points in a single infantry platoon, which can only fire at 1 target per turn...

One thing I'm wondering if people realize is that FW units are not made to hard counter regular GW units, they're made to also counter the OTHER FW units. So for example, that achilies LR thing, it could easily get smashed by some other FW units that you see running around. I highly doubt there's some evil mastermind at FW going "yes, yes... the achilles must be more powerful! We must punish all who would dare not to buy FW!!" But that's my 2 cents on the whole thing.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

spiralingcadaver wrote:Actually, I'd argue that he's correct: no unit should be able to beat it,.

He said no unit CAN beat it.

I gave two examples of units that could beat it.

Did you read the part of the sentence you deleted? Because that was the part that I'd argue matters.

So, there's this unit I just made up that doesn't exist anywhere: Terminator Devastators. They're all armed with assault cannons on their heads and stormshields on their lightning claws (which makes their storm shields twin-linked, and rubbing them together makes a static charge that counts as a heavy flamer or a jump pack) and they cost 10 points each.

I could argue that they're unbeatable, and you can argue that you could kill them with a titan, but it doesn't matter because they don't exist.

See how that works?

It does not matter that it is an illegal unit. We are talking forge world here.

The fact still remains that I gave two examples of units that could beat it.

and Snarky gave another example of a unit that could beat it even if it was a unit that does not exist. I was just countering Ailaros claim.

and I could beat your Illegal terminators with some real units as well Say 10 Blood Angel Vanguard Vets with Jump packs, Lightning claws, and Storm Shields, See how that works?

DarknessEternal wrote:Shadow Specters are pretty unbalanced, but not in the way most things have gone in this thread. They're laughably overpriced for something that is essentially an eldar with a plasma pistol and jetpack.

How much are they, pointswise? I know we can't break down game mechanics ("x upgrade costs x points" is forbidden) but I'm pretty sure generalities are OK - ("this unit as typically equipped is about 270 points")?

Ouze wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Shadow Specters are pretty unbalanced, but not in the way most things have gone in this thread. They're laughably overpriced for something that is essentially an eldar with a plasma pistol and jetpack.

How much are they, pointswise? I know we can't break down game mechanics ("x upgrade costs x points" is forbidden) but I'm pretty sure generalities are OK - ("this unit as typically equipped is about 270 points")?

Base Necron lord cost.

I don't think they are that bad, honestly.

Yeah, but its still pretty expensive for what you get.

it is an improvement to the Eldar codex for sure.