Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dark Scipio wrote:When you ban Forgeworl because some choices are good, why not ban the good codizies? Why not check every unit choice if it is fair?

Anyone already checked the players and tournament organisation if they are fair and just?

Why not allow Zweischneid's own cusToM-Tank (tm)? Just gotta find my rules somewhere ... uh (scribble).. there!

Gotta draw a line someplace. FW was intentionally created to provide an outlet for the more experimental and often whacky stuff. If you make FW "official", you're defeating its very purpose of being "free" to go a bit wild in their creative processes. You'd need to create FW 2.0 to harness that freedom again, while FW 1.0 would essentially just be "mainstream GW" delivered clumsily and inefficiently through two sales-windows.

Blight Drones. Fast moving flying BattleCannons/Twin Linked Autocannons/Template weapon for I think 125 points. It's got light armour, and only BS 2, but it's still a nasty surprise to run into a demon/Chaos Marine army packing them.

Zweischneid wrote:

Dark Scipio wrote:When you ban Forgeworl because some choices are good, why not ban the good codizies? Why not check every unit choice if it is fair?

Anyone already checked the players and tournament organisation if they are fair and just?

Why not allow Zweischneid's own cusToM-Tank (tm)? Just gotta find my rules somewhere ... uh (scribble).. there!

Gotta draw a line someplace.

So you place rules published by GW (through a subsidairy, FW) in the same legality as rules you scribbled on a napkin? Nice.

The line is drawn anyway. it says it in the rulebook. The rulebook and codices are 'core' rules. No opponents permission is needed further than agreeing to play the game. Anything outside of that, which encompasses Imperial Armour, Planetstrike, Battle Missions, Apocalypse, Cities of Death, etc, is discussed before you play with your opponent. They're expansions and supplements, not core rules. That's the only thing that makes them 'illegal'. Illegal as in you need your opponents permission, like anything non-core.

On topic, my least favorite goes to the Achilles as a bug player. There's precious little we have that can deal with it, as was mentioned on the previous page. MC's in assault (which need to be in range of the tanks multi meltas before you are in range to charge even with a Trygon), Rupture Cannons and Heavy Venom Cannons. Though Deadshot left off Warp Lance. There's not always going to be a Librarian hiding in it, and a pod of Zoanthropes is still throwing 3 S10, AP1 shots at it. But still, we're scraping the barrel in terms of dealing with the tank, and the suggestion of 'play around it' is stupid when that thing is throwing out 4 S6 templates around every turn as well as a couple of multimelta shots.

I honestly think the Achilles should have been made an Apocalypse unit rather than a normal 40k unit. At least then we'd have bio-cannons to add to what we can throw at it.

Deadshot wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:What, no mention of the impossible to kill, can fire all weapons while moving, cover ignoring Land Raider Achilles?

Not impossible to kill, just very tough - even nids can one shot it.

Only 4 things can pen it in Nids.

Heavy Venom Cannons but need a 6 and can at most wreck it.
Rupture Cannons.
Canifexes, but need a 6 or 5+ dependent on Adrenal Glands. Broods of 3 with Crushing Claws are good for it but insanely expensive and very inflexible.
Old One Eye. See Carnifexes but will die much quicker than 3 strong broods.

You know that MC still get their 2D6 to pen right?

I did not. I thought it was full blown Oldcron Living Metal.

No - it's not as good as Living Metal used to be.
In addition, you forgot Zoanthropes - Lance doesn't work (iirc) but it's still STR10 AP1.

It's not easy, and it's not something I'd like to count on.. but it's not impossible.

Jon Garrett wrote:Blight Drones. Fast moving flying BattleCannons/Twin Linked Autocannons/Template weapon for I think 125 points. It's got light armour, and only BS 2, but it's still a nasty surprise to run into a demon/Chaos Marine army packing them.

I agree, what makes them even worse is chaos has absolutely no fast attack units worth fielding. These things make attack bikes and landspeeders look like snotlings.

-Loki- wrote:I honestly think the Achilles should have been made an Apocalypse unit rather than a normal 40k unit. At least then we'd have bio-cannons to add to what we can throw at it.

Agreed.

Zweischneid wrote:Thus, bringing FW into the fold "unbalances" the game to the extend that it gives some armies a vastly greater amount of options to choose from, exploit enemy weaknesses and deter the opponent's ability to prepare, know or anticipate his tactics, while it does noting for others. This inevitably skews the game.

Only if:

a) you allow proxying OR
b) one player has the disposable income to spend to buy multiple copies of each FW item

AND

c) you allow list tailoring

Kaldor wrote:a) you allow proxying OR
b) one player has the disposable income to spend to buy multiple copies of each FW item

I find this humorous coming from a fellow Australia. FW stuff is in some cases cheaper than GW these days for us.

-Loki- wrote:

Kaldor wrote:a) you allow proxying OR
b) one player has the disposable income to spend to buy multiple copies of each FW item

I find this humorous coming from a fellow Australia. FW stuff is in some cases cheaper than GW these days for us.

I know, it's kinda awesome but sucks at the same time.

My point was really that while an IG player may have more FW options than, say, a Dark Eldar player, he can only really use them to his advantage if he buys two or three of each of them to 'stack' his army pool and keep his opponents guessing, and they only become really game-changing when you allow him to tailor his list to yours.

rigeld2 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:What, no mention of the impossible to kill, can fire all weapons while moving, cover ignoring Land Raider Achilles?

Not impossible to kill, just very tough - even nids can one shot it.

But can Orks, barring very very unlikely random factors or close combat

Nids have S 10 guns, and Zoanthropes with Lance S 10. Of course they can one-shot it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FW units in general are a tad variable in points value to worth ratio, but then so are some codexes ..

A lot of the ork FW stuff is a tad crappy for the points (grot bomb launcher for example).

I don't mind playing against FW units if i can read them first and have veto if i think they are totally gonzoed, which some are..

Someone showing up assuming they can automatically use them, (especially if they are proxied rather than the real thing) gets less charity.

Real occurance: 2000 pt open game day.

Opponent : Do you mind if i use a couple of Forgeworld units?

My Friend : Sure, as long as it's just a couple.

Opponent: Ok, I'll be back in a sec..

(comes back with 3 Titans.... )

This is why Forgeworld tends to get the hairy eye

Jon Garrett wrote:Blight Drones. Fast moving flying BattleCannons/Twin Linked Autocannons/Template weapon for I think 125 points. It's got light armour, and only BS 2, but it's still a nasty surprise to run into a demon/Chaos Marine army packing them.

Ya it's 125, but for 25 more points you can get a defiler with WS/BS 3 a Battlecannon, 2x DCCWs, TL-Heavy Flamer, Reaper Autocannon, Fleet, and Daemonic Possession. The Blight Drones count as an explosion even if they are "wreaked" and can only be taken if you have at least 1 unit of Plague Marines. With that being said as well as the fact the Chaos Space Marines don't have any good Fast Attack choices I think they are a great addition. Also keep in mind that the Mawcannon can do either the Template or the 5" blast per turn not both. You can also take them in squadrons of up to 3... but that seems like a lot of points that can be taken out pretty easily.

so a 66 man Death korp blob squad with the watchmaster and the commissar having powerfists is something like 750 points. throw in 6 special weapons and you are over 800.

Want to know what can kill 800 points worth of guardsmen in cover? how about 800 points worth of hellhounds? 800 points of any units with flamers. Personally id just throw a single front AV 13 walker into combat with them. They can't possibly hurt the walker with str 6. A single Ironclad dread beats this entire unit for free.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:There seems to be way too much overpowering with Forge World units.

If, as others have suggested, you actually look at the FW stuff, it's about the same as regular 40k, not generally OP.

There are some things that are overpowered, some that are on the mark, and some that are underpowered. The only major difference is that people generally know what to expect from standard 40k OP stuff, but are blindsided by FW OP stuff, because people don't run it as much.

Yeah, I guess that's probably more accurate.

I think the problem is that people just use stuff that's overpowered for one-sided reasons, or at least when it's not designed for normal 40k games.

Snarky wrote:Another bitch thread about Forgeworld..

Not at all. I love FW stuff, and IA8 is my favorite book in 40k. Look at my gallery! FW stuff galore.

However, it's a constant theme that FW units are broken somehow balancewise. I'd just like to see what examples you guys are talking about.

Snarky wrote:Overall, I would say that the character Dread from IA11 is the most imbalanced, being Venerable and having living metal, but costs more than a Land Raider.

Like this, for example.

Kanluwen wrote:

Ouze wrote:
----------------------

My vote for most unbalanced might be the Lucius-pattern Drop Pod. A drop pod that's 50 points and allows your dreadnought to assault? Blood Angels can take them? Seems undercosted to me.

If my memory serves correctly, that update is from before the Blood Angels got an actual book.

Per Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2(the most recent publication with rules for the Lucius-pattern Drop Pod), Blood Angels are specifically singled out from being able to take them. They're also 65 points, rather than 50.

Anyways, I really think that for the majority of units Forge World has overpriced the units. Things like the Drop Sentinels, the Tauros, etc feel a bit too hefty in points costs.

I don't own that book, so went by what was in the PDF. Thanks for the info because that changes my opinion a bit - the fact BA are specifically exempted from it makes it more reasonable.

And, so far as the things that are "overpriced", I meant that stuff too! By all means, what units do you think are too expensive points wise for what they can do (and why?). I really have to go to work like 5 min ago so will look up the sentinels and tauros when I get there

He forgot to mention that the Lucius Pod, outside of Apocalypse, also takes up a Fast Attack slot. I don't think that ends up competing with much, but every little bit of balancing adds up.

-Loki- wrote:
The line is drawn anyway. it says it in the rulebook. The rulebook and codices are 'core' rules.

Care to quote the actual rule that states that?

(hint: there isn't one)

People keep thinking FW units are Op but they just don't really understand/read the books or rules for the units.

My army list is in noway overpowered Its underpowered compared to all the latest codexes.

DKOK are not overpowered the PDF DKOK list is a little better compared to the IA 5 list (60pts for squad rather then 80pts) still more expensive then regualr guard.

Oh and for the 50 troop transport the Gorgan is 410pts, open topped, lumbering speed, and units inside cannot fire out of it. Its hardly great for cost compared a whole lot of chimeras, I could get 8 chimeras for a total of 440pts which could carry 80 troops only 30pts more then a Gorgan

-Loki- wrote:I find this humorous coming from a fellow Australia. FW stuff is in some cases cheaper than GW these days for us.

Thats actually why I buy FW.

Ironicly I finds its cheaper then GW

Vaktathi wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
The line is drawn anyway. it says it in the rulebook. The rulebook and codices are 'core' rules.

Care to quote the actual rule that states that?

(hint: there isn't one)

Exactly,

the FW IA books also say the lists within are designed to be used with normal 40k and as such are completely legal.

FW=GW so it is the same as if GW said it was legal.


And even if its not, this entire game is based on your opponents permission. I could refuse to play against anyone using Codex: Dark Eldar because I think they look funny. I could refuse to play you if you use any Venerable Dreadnoughts...

This entire game is based on your opponents permission. hence why I think FW should be more widely accepted. Not the least of which is because if I shelled out the cash for an awsome FW model you could at least do me the courtesy of letting me use it in my games.

Most of the OP FW stuff is only OP if it gets spammed. If someone has enough money to spam FW units then he either a serious hobbiest and/or a good player that also wants his army to look good. He won't be in it for the power, and if it is then you can just refuse to play him on the grounds of him being a d-bag.

Yak9UT wrote:Oh and for the 50 troop transport the Gorgan is 410pts, open topped, lumbering speed, and units inside cannot fire out of it. Its hardly great for cost compared a whole lot of chimeras, I could get 8 chimeras for a total of 440pts which could carry 80 troops only 30pts more then a Gorgan

Yes, but the Gorgon can carry a huge combined squad, which makes it better for the assault Guard playstyle. Also, no one seems to have mentioned the fact that all DKOK can exchange their lasgun for a laspistol/ccw for free. I would love to be able to do that, although in some ways I'm glad I can't as it would be a pain to model.

As far as overpowered DKOK goes, the Medusa Siege Gun needs a mention. It is probably one of the best ranged guns in the entire game. Same stats as the normal Medusa, just with a range of 24-120. Pretty evil.

Still, DKOK has so many weaknesses that it is fairly well balanced. It is good at what it should be, a straight up fight against an enemy in front of it. Once you start outflanking/deepstriking then it gets harder for them.

Grey Templar wrote:
Exactly,

the FW IA books also say the lists within are designed to be used with normal 40k and as such are completely legal.

FW=GW so it is the same as if GW said it was legal.

"Wanna play against my CSM?"
"Wanna play against me CSM with Blight Drones?"

You don't see a difference in those questions, or a potential difference in the answers?

Not the least of which is because if I shelled out the cash for an awsome FW model you could at least do me the courtesy of letting me use it in my games.

I don't mind FW models at all as a counts as for a normal codex unit.


The rulebook does say that

The army lists included in the Warhammer 40,000 Codex books specify the precise characteristics and abilities of each troop type,
detail the maximum and minimum size of each unit and provide a points value for each model.

Are the IA8, etc. books Warhammer 40,000 Codex books?

FW has an Addendum to that in their IA book lists saying to include them in that.

Also, many of their units simply say "This unit is a heavy support/fast attack/elite/troops choice in Codex: *insert codex name here*"

This is how the Eldar Nightspinner was added in WD.

Grey Templar wrote:FW has an Addendum to that in their IA book lists saying to include them in that.

Also, many of their units simply say "This unit is a heavy support/fast attack/elite/troops choice in Codex: *insert codex name here*"

This is how the Eldar Nightspinner was added in WD.

Gentlemen, this is a thread for how imbalanced or balanced the FW units are. Please stay on topic and take the BS "Legal vs illegal" or "Permission required or not" arguement to one of the dozens of threads spawned on that topic every year.

Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ouze wrote:I don't own that book, so went by what was in the PDF. Thanks for the info because that changes my opinion a bit - the fact BA are specifically exempted from it makes it more reasonable.

Even with it also taking up a Fast Attack slot, having no weapons, and having no locator beacon, getting to assault with an iron-clad dreadnought on turn 1 is still pretty boss for 65 points. Just don't roll a 1 for your dangerous terrain check on the turn you assault.

Trickstick wrote:

Yes, but the Gorgon can carry a huge combined squad, which makes it better for the assault Guard playstyle. Also, no one seems to have mentioned the fact that all DKOK can exchange their lasgun for a laspistol/ccw for free. I would love to be able to do that, although in some ways I'm glad I can't as it would be a pain to model.

As far as overpowered DKOK goes, the Medusa Siege Gun needs a mention. It is probably one of the best ranged guns in the entire game. Same stats as the normal Medusa, just with a range of 24-120. Pretty evil.

Still, DKOK has so many weaknesses that it is fairly well balanced. It is good at what it should be, a straight up fight against an enemy in front of it. Once you start outflanking/deepstriking then it gets harder for them.

The Gorgon however can only be taken in Apoc, and the medusa siege gun is AV11 and any glancing/penetrating hit destroys it, but yeah, on the whole the DKoK list is rather tame.

rigeld2 wrote:
The rulebook does say that

The army lists included in the Warhammer 40,000 Codex books specify the precise characteristics and abilities of each troop type,
detail the maximum and minimum size of each unit and provide a points value for each model.

One will notice that's merely in the introduction description, not in the actual *rules* section of the rulebook. It's not a rule.

Are the IA8, etc. books Warhammer 40,000 Codex books?

They contain army lists that are formatted and function identically to those found in a codex. Aside from being called "imperial armor" as opposed to "codex", there isn't much of a difference. Both are official GW produced army lists.

Yak9UT wrote:
People keep thinking FW units are Op but they just don't really understand/read the books or rules for the units.

This really seems to be more the issue than anything else.

I find most people that have a vehement thing against FW have one of three issues.

1: they've never actually looked at the stuff themselves and just take as gospel 2nd or 3rd hand say-so that it's all busted and broken or didn't read the rules correctly.

2: they gave it a go once and the person using FW stuff (often with proxies) played it completely wrong and ****stompped them, leaving a bad impression. (e.g. playing a titan in a 1500pt game or trying to play Thudd Guns as S7, etc)

3: They think it costs too much and if they can't afford it then others shouldn't be able to use it (nevermind that this applies to many armies and units in the normal GW range and that GW prices are fast converging on FW prices or already meeting/exceeding them).

Relatively little is going to vastly imbalance most 40k games. LR Achilles might, drop pod dreads very much can, maybe a couple other units, but really, not much more than the silly stuff that the codex's already have like Long Fangs, Purifiers, Vulkan, Vendettas, etc.

Shadow Specters are pretty unbalanced, but not in the way most things have gone in this thread. They're laughably overpriced for something that is essentially an eldar with a plasma pistol and jetpack.

I use Shaso R'alai (FW Tau HQ choice) in every game and nobody has a problem with it. I find a majority of the XV9 Tau suits very balanced. I carry a copy of the IA page (as well as the book itself) in case any of my opponents want to see his gear and abilities, but if they tell me I can't use him I find another player, as Grey Templar stated above (and as it says in the front of many IA books) FW is GW and legal in normal play.

I own many of the IA books and I don't think any of the units are "overpowered". They all have the strengths and weakness, just like any other "codex" model.

Vaktathi wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The rulebook does say that

The army lists included in the Warhammer 40,000 Codex books specify the precise characteristics and abilities of each troop type,
detail the maximum and minimum size of each unit and provide a points value for each model.

One will notice that's merely in the introduction description, not in the actual *rules* section of the rulebook. It's not a rule.

I'm only going to post to address this statement since I don't own any of the IA books.

I'd like you to look on page 86 in the "Organizing a Battle" section, and notice that the words I quoted are the second sentence under "Agree Points Limit & Choose Forces". That's not in the introduction, it's in the actual rules section. It is a rule.

I love FW stuff. The models are beautifully designed and super fun. The Contemptor pattern dreadnoughts can be posed in any way you want. You could make one break-dancing. The books especially are great. The Badab war books are great and they have so much about the different chapters and battles that took place. Way better than the regular GW fluff in the codexes.

With that said, I find most FW stuff too expensive to use in mass unless you had a 2000+ point game. In a tournament setting, if GW allows FW stuff then I say let it play. Hate the game not the player. For casual play, who cares.

As for the most OP, I would say some of the SM HQ's in the Badab war books are pretty OP. In book 2 is a librarian which gives all infantry (except terminators and those in vehicles) infiltrate. Another one lets you upgrade one unit so their bolters, bolt pistols, and storm bolters fire hellfire rounds.

rigeld2 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The rulebook does say that

The army lists included in the Warhammer 40,000 Codex books specify the precise characteristics and abilities of each troop type,
detail the maximum and minimum size of each unit and provide a points value for each model.

One will notice that's merely in the introduction description, not in the actual *rules* section of the rulebook. It's not a rule.

I'm only going to post to address this statement since I don't own any of the IA books.

I'd like you to look on page 86 in the "Organizing a Battle" section, and notice that the words I quoted are the second sentence under "Agree Points Limit & Choose Forces". That's not in the introduction, it's in the actual rules section. It is a rule.

So it is included there as well, good catch. However, it still doesn't specify that those are the only valid books for normal play, only that the army lists which are included in Codex books contain the descriptions and required characteristics and costs required to use them in battles, not that other army lists in non-codex book aren't allowed.

It's simply saying "there are army lists in the codex books that have X,Y,Z needed to play", not "these books are the legal army options".

In the Rapier Laser Destroyer's defence, it cost, in Second Edition (the last time it was readily available), a mere 45 points, despite having a range of 72" and an AP of D6+2D10+9.

To put those figures in perspective, a Tactical Space Marine at the time cost 30 points, and a Land Raider's best AV was 22, which, by my crude maths, the Rapier would have penetrated more than half the time.

Compared with that, even at its original, experimental cost, Forge World's version of the rules is quite reasonable.

Vaktathi wrote:However, it still doesn't specify that those are the only valid books for normal play, only that the army lists which are included in Codex books contain the descriptions and required characteristics and costs required to use them in battles, not that other army lists in non-codex book aren't allowed.

It's simply saying "there are army lists in the codex books that have X,Y,Z needed to play", not "these books are the legal army options".

Permissive rule set - if it doesn't say it's allowed, it isn't.