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Bought a leman russ from a guy at my store this weekend, and noticed it had a ton of bitz on it. One that I found a little odd was that it had a heavy stubber glued onto the turret. I've never really noticed people on here mention them, so I figured I would ask.

Is there any situation on an IG vehicle where you would want a heavy stubber or a storm bolter on a pintle mount?

I can see the stubber being worthwhile, as its a defensive weapon that you could fire even when moving, with 3 shots at up to 36". However the storm bolter seems pretty useless, you trade one shot and 12" of range for assault 2 and ap5 instead of 6... whoopee? Is there anything I'm missing here? It seems that if you were to take a pintle weapon, it would be the stubber every time.

And since I derp'd on the OP and mixed up sponson and pintle, what do you think of sponsons lol. Edited to fix the title

In my opinion no there is nothing you are missing. Being BS 3 that extra shot from the stubber is going to help more than a slightly better AP the storm bolter gives you.

There are two different things in play here: sponson weapons and pintle mounted weapons.

Sponsons are on the sides of the tank and are either heavy bolters, heavy flamers, plasma cannons or Multimeltas. Generally, these are not worth their points, as you'd really want your tanks to be moving every turn.

Pintle mounted weapons are the storm bolter and heavy stubber. Of the two, I'd prefer the stubber, as you're still shooting at BS3. The only time I'd advise for the storm bolter is if you KNOW you'll be fighting someone with a 5+ save (e.g. IG). Otherwise, people are going to get their save anyways (Space Marines) or they wouldn't have gotten one in either case (normal Orks).

That being said, I generally have a better place to spend 10 points than on the pintle mounted weapons. Ten points is an upgrade for my scout sentinels to autocannons (I run two normally), power weapon for a commissar, most of the way to a hull mounted lascannon for a Demolisher, or door gunners for my Vendetta (heavy bolter sponsons, since it's a Fast vehicle, it can move and still fire everything).

Pintle mounts are ok if you really want them but IG can always use 10 points elsewhere usually

I generally forgo both pintle and sponsons weapons, My tanks are always moving, so sponson gun are useless and the points for a pintle can buy me an autocannon or a meltagun for my Vets. Having said that, I prefer The heavy stubber for the extra shot and range and it looks cooler

I like the idea of Plasma Cannon Sponsons on the Leman Russ Executioner. Otherwise, I'm not that big of a fan of sponsons.

@ Mr Moustafa: You're confusing Sponsons and Pintle mounted weapons.

I've used sponsons on all my tanks. My LRBTs have HB sponsons, while my executioner has PC sponsons. While they don't always get used, I've killed several targets simply because of the sheer weight of bullets I've thrown at it.

Stubber looks better than a storm bolter, imo, but the 10 points spent can get you half way to actual sponsons.

Another vote for the Hvy Stubber if taken at all. To your original question, should you run sponsons. It is tempting to go plasma crazy on something like the executioner but the point cost gets high fast. To use them to full effect you have to be stationary a lot. A tank with some range, like an exterminator which works against infantry and light armor, sponsons start to look good. Cost per hvy bolter is less than half of what it costs to field a hvy weapon squad. Another factor is how many tanks you are using. Squadron up some Leman Russ tanks and sponsons become ablative in nature, because you can rack up weapon destroys fast. Same for the stubber.

Alright so now that I've fixed the OP, this is the kind of advice i expected to get (for the pintle mounted stubber). The only two places I would see one being an actually good upgrade would be for the punisher and demolisher. Both of those tanks want to close the distance, which means they have to keep moving. Putting a stubber on them gives you a few extra shots while moving, which would be a much better investment than sponsons, where you cant move and shoot all of them. Not to mention the pintle mounted stubber has a full 360 firing arc, as opposed to sponsons which have limited firing arcs.

As for the tank that I bought that made me ask this question, its a normal leman russ with a dozer blade, heavy bolter sponsons, pintle mounted stubber, and a hunter killer missle. I think the guy sold it to me so I'd have bits to mess around with, but it still seemed like an odd setup. The bolter sponsons and the stubber I get (more dakka is never a bad thing) but the hunter killer and the dozer blade just seemed kinda meh. I'm thinkin about trying it with just the sponsons and pintle mount, and seeing how it does in my next game.

Does a sponson weapon with Pask get the BS4?

Is it worth it to get another weapon on a Pask tank?

Pask himself is a bit underwhelming, but yes everything gets BS4

The only thing that really benefits would be Multi Meltas, and no one ever takes MM on russes

kenshin620 wrote:Pask himself is a bit underwhelming, but yes everything gets BS4

The only thing that really benefits would be Multi Meltas, and no one ever takes MM on russes

Has anyone ever tried using them on a demolisher? I could see it working well on those since they have the same range as the demolisher cannon. Other than that though I've never really got why we could take those. Them and heavy flamer sponsons always seemed like wierd choices.

I used to run a Demolisher with lascannon and multi-melta sponsons. Suffice that to say, when the sponsons fell off (GW glue) I didn't glue them back on.
You're not going to get to use them that often. And when you do they're only BS3 and they're shooting at the same thing as your Demolisher anyway.
However if your enemy likes to throw vehicles in your face it's a pretty good way of guarenteeing they'll pop. Lascannon and MMs alone gives ~1 penetrating hit and ~0.5 glancing hits on a Rhino, that's on top of the Demolisher cannon.
Against AV 13 it's still ~80% chance of penetrating, again, on top of the cannon itself.

Pintle stubbers are okay on russes that have bolter sponsons, especially if it also has a hull bolter, as it just increases an already dakkaful tank. Note that this also includes things like hydras. As mentioned, storm bolters are crap.

The other thing to consider when talking about vehicle upgrade weapons is when to take a HK missile. They're usually not worth it, but for stuff that you want to be better against AV12 targets, and be better right away on turn 1, it makes sense. I've taken them on hydras when they were bearing a heavier than usual load of my anti-tank, and I've also put them on russes when I have a lascannon on the hull. An opening barrage of autocannons/battlecannon+hull lascannon+HK missle is a pretty decent opening volley.

As for sponsons heavy bolters, I generally like them. For only 20 points you turn a tank into a tank that can handle hordes and whittle down TEq and MCs by throwing wounds at them. Any other sponson I wouldn't be caught dead with, as their killing power to cost is even more awful than the sponson bolters, all while making the tank just too expensive over all. Plus, having 40 point sponsons killed by a shaken result always hurts.

+1 for heavy stubber

In the choice between sponsors or not, I dont take anymore - I learned the hard way - unless a russ is moving its a dead russ

I agree on all the sponson points being made here. If you get sponsons you'll want to use them, and when you do thats when some super marine is going to fly across the board and KO your tank with a "Falcon Punch!". At least it seemed that way to me. Like sumi808 just said you got to keep them moving.

What are the stats of stabbers. I thought they were Str 5, AP 5, Heavy 3? That's better than the Stormbolter. If these are the stats then the only advantage the SB has is being defensive.

Heavy Stubber- s:4 AP:6 heavy 3

I always take sponsons on my LRBT or my Executioner. Not on my Vanquisher though (yes I use a Vanquisher...sue me). Leman Russ can move 6 and still shoot all it's weapons so not sure why people say don't take sponsons because it can't shoot em. Anyway, 40 points for 2 more plasma shots with an Executioner can make up it's point cost in one shooting phase, and for me it usually does. Totally worth it for me. As for a stubber, I take one on my LRBT but nothing else. Usually does me some good. Only 10 points so there's a good chance of making it's points back, and even if it doesn't, everything else on your tank will.

bmoleski wrote: Leman Russ can move 6 and still shoot all it's weapons so not sure why people say don't take sponsons because it can't shoot em.

I REALLY wish the rules were this.

Sadly they are not. The Lumbering Behemoth allows the Tank's TURRET to be used no matter how many other weapons are fired, all other weapons must follow normal shooting rules

I hope 6th makes S5 weapons defensive or something, makes no sense that the standard side arms for most tanks cannot be used

kenshin620 wrote:

bmoleski wrote: Leman Russ can move 6 and still shoot all it's weapons so not sure why people say don't take sponsons because it can't shoot em.

I REALLY wish the rules were this.

Sadly they are not. The Lumbering Behemoth allows the Tank's TURRET to be used no matter how many other weapons are fired, all other weapons must follow normal shooting rules

I hope 6th makes S5 weapons defensive or something, makes no sense that the standard side arms for most tanks cannot be used

Doesn't Lumbering Behemoth give it that ability? It says if it moves or is stationary it can fire any weapons it's usually aloud to fire......

Hmmm, nevermind. I just re-read the ability several times. I guess I'm mistaken. It just means I can fire ordinance+other stuff on the same turn.

Just to echo the common theme- sponsons and pintle mounts generally aren't worth it buy HB sponsons on a russ or pintle stubber isn't horribad.

If it stood still it could fire everything except the Battle Cannon or Demo cannon OR just one.of those 2. The Lumbering behemoth lets it.do both.

If a LR moved it would fire the turret, any 1 gun and defensives.

Defensive is str 4 now.

Lets clear up HOW the LRBT can shoot.

First off Vehical movement rules
PG 58.
Stationary - Fire everything
Up to 6" (combat speed) - Single weapon (AND Defensive weapons)
6-12 (cruising) - no shooting

Defensive weapons - Any weapon with strength 4 or less.

You cannot fire an HK missile in addition to main weapon if moved.(as not strength 4)

Ordnance weapons - Can only fire (not even defensive weapons)

OK now we consult the IG codex

PG 48
Lumbering Behemoth - if stationary or combat speed, then "can fire turret weapon in addition to any other weapons its usually allowed to fire (even if the turret weapon is ordnance)"

This is terribly unclear and open to abusive interpretation. What does "usually allowed to fire" mean?

I would take it to mean that If you are STATIONARY AND have an ORDNANCE weapon, you can still shoot everything (defensive weapons, sponsons, hull weapon) where as without LB rule if you had a demolisher you would only ever be able to fire the demolisher cannon (think about it for a second)

Now if you moved COMBAT speed, LB does not allow you to shoot everything, you must still follow the rules for vehicals moving combat speed as this is the "usually allowed to fire" event. So you are moving your demolisher now at combat speed, you shoot your demolisher cannon AND fire your Stormbolter or Heavy Stubber (fire single weapon plus defensive weapons)

LB does not allow you to move 6 and shoot everything you got, sorry.... I wish it did i own 3 LRBT all sponsonless.

If you move, you cant even shoot your Turret and Hull weapon. really makes you think about that lascannon upgrade now doesnt it.

A sitting LRBT is a target, A moving LRBT fights on its own terms. So before you sink points into your LRBT maybe think about how many you want to field. If you have 3 LRBTs on the field, maybe plan to keep two moving and have one sit for a couple rounds to throw some dakka....

That being said:

- 40pts for plasma sponsons that you cant shoot if you move, and have a %33 chance of hitting... waste
- 30 pt melta sponsons, you need the enemy to drive withing melta range for you to use them... waste
- Flamer sponsons, again you need to have the enemy drive into your flamer range to die.... waste
- Heavy bolter sponson, Usefull if you are taking a LRBT with H-bolter in hull and are planning to waste hordes (Still we're talking about a BS3, Heavy bolters here, dont expect them to kill too much.

The strengths of the LRBT lies in its turret weapon (you pick, plenty of advice on forums), its armor and its price.
You can field 3 stock for 450 points. Thats a beast to deal with especially with lots of guardsmen on the table also

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
PG 48
Lumbering Behemoth - if stationary or combat speed, then "can fire turret weapon in addition to any other weapons its usually allowed to fire (even if the turret weapon is ordnance)"

If you move, you cant even shoot your Turret and Hull weapon. really makes you think about that lascannon upgrade now doesnt it.

That is the first time I've heard of that

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/414828.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/410709.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/308642.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/388060.page

I reread those posts and the codex. I had misinterperated. It does look like you can move and fire the turret and lascannon. I will have to argue this out at my local store.

~Lion~

lumbering adj - awkward in movement, moving with a rumbling sound: slow and laborious because of weight

behemoth - someone or something that is abnormally large and powerful (thats what she said)

i think it relates more to only being allowed to move 6" or 6+D6 at cruising speed, you cant move 12" unless rolled for. Also being able to fire all weapons if stationary. the battle cannon is ordnance, so with out the rule that would be the only thing you can fire per BRB. with the rule you can fire the turret(even if its ordnance), along with any additional weapons on the tank(if stationary). defensive weapons can always be fired even with the ordnance.

thats how i see it, but it deff needs to be cleared up.

also, in the BRB it states that ordnance weapons require the attention of the entire crew to be able to fire, meaning that is the only weapon that can be fired and only if they didnt move. but in the IG codex pg48 last paragraph states that if sponsons are added to the tank, they have dedicated gunners and with the primary turret supply a torrent of fire that hammers blah blah. why then, does the story line not reflect the rules and vica versa. if they have these dedicated gunners, they should be able to fire no matter what. why does a baneblade not have av 14 all around but a B!t<h land raider does?>

You can still fire a hull weapon and the main cannon if you move 6". The hull weapon is the "one weapon" and the turret is "in addition to any other weapons".

As for sponsons and sitting still, just because you take an upgrade weapon doesn't mean you NEED to use it absolutely every turn. If a powerfist is coming your way, then use common sense and move the tank. The sponsons are there for when you don't need to move to get out of the way of powerfists, which is more likely than not.

Wait, so with lumbering behemoth, can I move 6", fire the battlecannon, lascannon, and heavy stubber? Or can I only shoot the battlecannon and lascannon?