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Say what you want about this/that codex being OP, but it's a prevalent tactic, it seems to be TERRIBLY effective, and I'd love to hear how y'all deal with it.

1. Drop pod Sternguard

Long fangs are very vulnerable to high volume long range fire. They don't have any bullet catchers, so they suffer from casualitues very quickly.
They will be in cover, so low ap shots are not as effective vs them. Save you LCs for other targets.

However, some weapons like dual TL AC dreads are highly effective. A dakka pread is also very effective.

I'd think an ironclad drop podded on top of them would be the way to go.

How about using a thunder fire cannon against them? It's 5 chances to hit and odds are you are going to force them to take a lot of saves.

Yea drop pod dreads are a great way to deal with them, it's up you to smoke or shoot when the dread comes down if I can get 5+ models under the flame template/ or if I can use the drop pod for cover I go ahead and shoot turn 1. If you have an iron clad go a head and shoot as 4-5 crack missiles won't do anything to armor 13 unless you are unlucky, then ur in assault and will kill 1 or 2 a turn and probably break them or at the least tarp it them.

If you use Khan outflanking transports would be an excellent thought to them.

As a Dark Eldar player I feel their damage output a lot as well, as all it takes it 2 ML to down one of my raiders.

As others have said, volume of fire, for me its venoms. For Vanilla marines I'd look to Thunder Fire Cannons, stick them in a ruin and you get the 3+ Cover save from the Techmarine.

You could try outflanking things but generally your not going to kill them with the units you outflank as a smart Space Wolf player will see what your going to do from your list and either bubblewrap or deploy them to where you will have to split your outflankers to deal with them.

Another tactic I've stumbled upon while playing Vanilla Marines was using Scouts to pin them, if you get decent enough shooting you have a chance. I wouldn't rely on it though.

Getting in their face solves the problem fast.

Ironclads and venerables dropping in by then, popping smoke and running for the gold works well.

Thunderfire cannons work, to a degree, most players won't clump up.

Outlfanking scouts are an excellent way to apply pressure later on to ones you can't deal with easily.

Personally with my rock-paper-scissors mentality I would say he has devoted most of his list to hard anti-mech...so don't bring anything anything with an armour value that isn't drop-podding.
But I don't know how viable all-infantry space marine lists are.

Thoughts:

1. drop pods-If you're playing a person that knows what he's doing, this won't work because he'll have wrapped rhinos, razorbacks, or whatever around his LFs who will be elevated. If not that, then he has enough melta to get through your cover saves and take out your dread after you get off one shot that might get you one dead LF. Podding sternguard won't be much more effective.

2. outflankers-Could work, again dependent upon his deployment. However, this is easy for him to counter vs bikes; just put his LFs on the second story of a ruin and watch the bikes come and stare at them, because that's all they're going to be doing. The bikes might kill a few with bolter shots, then they'll get wasted on his turn by crack missiles. Also, don't forget LFs have counterattack so charging them isn't always the best idea. Outflankers are also at the mercy of a die roll regarding when they come in. Outflankers coming in on turn four or five won't help much.

3. high volume low strength fire-Your best bet when playing with vanilla marines. Dakka preds are excellent here because STR 8 has problems taking out AV 13 and the pred has eight shots at good range. Also, the pred is only 85 pts so if he does get it it isn't that huge a loss. If you can combine fire, say from a dakka pred, rifleman, typhoon, and/or TFC, you should burn through about a LF squad a turn.

Just remember, if he deploys first, deny flank him or deploy out of sight. If you can keep even one squad of LFs out of the game for a turn or two, you're that much further ahead.

Oh brother. You say don't take an av 13 dread that can slaughter them in close combat. Instead waste a heavy support slot on a useless vehicle that is no threat to either rhinos or marines on foot?

No one is going to baby sit long fangs with melta guns. The melta guns will be blowing holes in your troop transports or heavy support vehicles.

TFC would most likey lose vs long fangs as well even with bolstered cover. I'd do drop pod assault with the ironclad or assault terminators deep strike.

Small Arms fire, there's only 6 of them. They'll be in cover, so, the high power shots are better used on other things.

Or, a Vanilla Marine's answer to most of the new power lists:

Head Between your legs, kiss your ass goodbye. (I kid)

Oh brother. You say don't take an av 13 dread that can slaughter them in close combat. Instead waste a heavy support slot on a useless vehicle that is no threat to either rhinos or marines on foot?

I won't get into a numbers crunching session or a geek war; clearly we each have our own playstyles. I will say that you should give dakka preds a try (run at least two). They may surprise you. As far as dropping dreads, that's an entirely different topic. But if it works for you, run with it.

Sternguard in a drop pod
Ironclad Dread in a drop pod
Vanguard vets
Landraider redeemer

Scout bikes. Infiltrate + scout + teleport homers.

jesse wrote:

Oh brother. You say don't take an av 13 dread that can slaughter them in close combat. Instead waste a heavy support slot on a useless vehicle that is no threat to either rhinos or marines on foot?

I won't get into a numbers crunching session or a geek war; clearly we each have our own playstyles. I will say that you should give dakka preds a try (run at least two). They may surprise you. As far as dropping dreads, that's an entirely different topic. But if it works for you, run with it.

I'm not trying to argue. I have been playing long enough to know that outside of maybe a 500 point game a heavy bolter predator is a waste of a heavy support slot.

Preds in general are bad, being only able to move and shoot one weapon. Wasting a heavy support slot on something that can't even pop a rhino is pointless.

Iron Clads are an expensive way to deal with such a cheap SW unit.

Your paying 170 Points to *Maybe* take out a cheap 5 or 6 man SM Unit.

Generally your going to drop down, and what are you going to do? Shoot your Meltagun at it? Any SW Player that knows how to play is going to look, see your drop pod and make sure they'll have the means to prevent the Pod from doing any major damage to their long fangs.

If your going all drop pods, this may work, but even then I cant see an Ironclad working whatsoever, the +1 to the AV is negated by the huge amount of melta wolves can take.

I see the Dakka Pred or TFC being better ways to deal with them, the Ironclad just doesn't have the ability to survive being Drop Podded alone and surviving a turn. Not even mentioning it takes up an Elite slot, which are C:SM's favorite units.

number of shots. shoot them enough times and they go down.

dropping 6 tac squads on them via pods, along witha bunch of dreads for shooty and or CC assitance should take care of them easy enough.

Exergy wrote:Sternguard in a drop pod
Ironclad Dread in a drop pod
Vanguard vets
Landraider redeemer

Vanguard vets? That's one I've never heard before. Usually, people tell me to stay away from them, when it comes to Codex Marines.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Exergy wrote:Sternguard in a drop pod
Ironclad Dread in a drop pod
Vanguard vets
Landraider redeemer

Vanguard vets? That's one I've never heard before. Usually, people tell me to stay away from them, when it comes to Codex Marines.

I would listen to them. If you scatter >6" or if the long fangs are high up in a multi-level ruin, you won't be able to assault them anyway.

Shrike + assault squad infiltrated 18" away.
12" move
d6" fleet
6" assault

It may not work every time, but it is an option at least.

I like DPing the Ironclad. Forcing a choice dictates the flow of battle and if the LFs aren't shooting your transports it's a good thing. Heck even a plain dread with HF could force saves...

I'm thinking LSS + CCW scouts. They can outflank or charge turn 1 (if Long Fangs are not properly protected) and could at least tie up the LF squad by two turns. Having a PF or PW will surely help.

heartserenade wrote:I'm thinking LSS + CCW scouts. They can outflank or charge turn 1 (if Long Fangs are not properly protected) and could at least tie up the LF squad by two turns. Having a PF or PW will surely help.

You would think this might work, but actually the Longfangs can beat the Scouts in combat due to counter attack. Maybe with heavy flamer on the speeder and combiflamer on Sarge there is a chance. But then you are paying more than the longfangs, relying on getting first turn, taking 2 easy kill points, using up crucial fast attack slot, etc....

-Myst

Mysticaria wrote:

heartserenade wrote:I'm thinking LSS + CCW scouts. They can outflank or charge turn 1 (if Long Fangs are not properly protected) and could at least tie up the LF squad by two turns. Having a PF or PW will surely help.

You would think this might work, but actually the Longfangs can beat the Scouts in combat due to counter attack. Maybe with heavy flamer on the speeder and combiflamer on Sarge there is a chance. But then you are paying more than the longfangs, relying on getting first turn, taking 2 easy kill points, using up crucial fast attack slot, etc....

-Myst

True, but you don't need to kill the Long Fangs to render them ineffective. How long would an LF squad beat a CCW scout squad with a PF who shot first with BPs and charged?

Predators with autocannons. LOTS of autocannons. Not only will it work well against them, it works good against everything.

This is a matchup where a Land Raider or two really come into their own. They kind of laugh at missile spam, and they can be used as LOS-blockers for other units at the same time. SW do tend to have cheap melta, but it's normally carried by Grey Hunter squads, so they have to feed you at least a scoring unit or two to get close enough to use it on your LR.

Termies in land raiders work wonders on long fangs.They are the best answer vanilla marines have.

On a side note, Grey knight termies work well also. If you are doing a coteaz list, just make sure you alpha strike before they do.

Hell, any 2+ save squad will work very well vs sw missile spam.

Kevlar wrote:

jesse wrote:

Oh brother. You say don't take an av 13 dread that can slaughter them in close combat. Instead waste a heavy support slot on a useless vehicle that is no threat to either rhinos or marines on foot?

I won't get into a numbers crunching session or a geek war; clearly we each have our own playstyles. I will say that you should give dakka preds a try (run at least two). They may surprise you. As far as dropping dreads, that's an entirely different topic. But if it works for you, run with it.

I'm not trying to argue. I have been playing long enough to know that outside of maybe a 500 point game a heavy bolter predator is a waste of a heavy support slot.

Preds in general are bad, being only able to move and shoot one weapon. Wasting a heavy support slot on something that can't even pop a rhino is pointless.

Then shoot the autocannon? >.>