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This thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/418329.page got me thinking about what allies might mean for Codex Marines. I think one of the biggest impacts might be the ability to take troop choices other than Tactical Squads. Given that most people have a negative view of vanilla tac squads, it seems natural now to just replace them with allies. You'll have to take an extra HQ from your allied force, but with most Marine armies that can be a Librarian which is probably the most common Marine HQ anyway.

Here's the list of armies that Codex Marines can totally ally with and some of what you might want to trade:

Blood Angels
Meltagun toting DoA Assault Squads

Space Wolves
Grey Hunters with WG Leaders (JotWW Priest is a bonus)

Black Templars
Those crazy mix-n-match squads that Templars have (I don't know Templars very well)

Dark Angels
Deathwing

Imperial Guard
Melta Vets
Infantry Blobs

Tau
Ok, just kidding.

EDIT: Yes, you have to take a Codex Marine HQ and two troop choices before you can use Allied choices, but you can fill the troop options with cheap Scout squads. It's 150pts for two Scout sniper squads. Now you're free to pick troops from any of 6 "best buddy" codices, do you take those, or do you stick with your Tac squads and why?

Pffft, people were taking scouts or drop podding/razorbacking tacticals for vanilla marines for a long time. It won't change, the amount of points you need to spend just to get 1-2 other troops isn't worth it.

I imagine you will be required to take a minimum amount of troops from your own codex as well. Just a guess could be wrong but I do not see why this would not be the case.

Amerikon wrote:Tau
Ok, just kidding.

Not even for Broadsides and 30" moving Pulse Rifles?

Not to mention the fact that with a new edition I am certain codex SM will be updated accordingly seeing as this is the bread and butter to GW. I expect to see a new codex for SM soon, and a FAQ soon after release perhaps.

Yeah, you still have to take a legal force from your own codex. They don't fill in for your own slots.

I guess I should've re-read the OP before I submitted it. This whole thing assumes that you'd take two min Scout squads to get a legal FOC for your base army and that you'd then take the other troops from the other codex.

I don't see how this is that big of a points premium. Like I said, all you have to do is buy an allied HQ which can, in most cases, be a Librarian you were going to have anyway. Then you've unlocked the fun troops choices from your allies.

Except I believe there is a max of 2 troops choices from the allied codex(and 1 each of Elite, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support)

From what I've read from warseer, reddit and other sources, After taking your own mandatory 2 troops and 1 HQ, you are then allowed 1HQ1-2Troops and 0-1 of everything else.

Once you reach 2000 points, you get 2 FoC that you can fill with your own troops or from your ally. Those FoC require the minimum 3 units.

acekevin8412 wrote:

Amerikon wrote:Tau
Ok, just kidding.

Not even for Broadsides and 30" moving Pulse Rifles?

I don't know the Tau list too well, but it seems like the cost of an HQ and two min troops would be too much to justify the Elite and Heavy choices that you might want. Anyway this is about replacing Tac Marines with allied troop choices. I don't think too many people will want to swap their Marines for Fire Warriors or Kroot. I could be wrong though.

The converse of that might be interesting, since Tau are in a similar spot. Generally their troop choices are considered the worst part of their army list. Now that Tau can team up with Marines, IG, and Eldar what troops would you want to use in your Tau army? (Although that's probably best discussed in another thread.)


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Grey Templar wrote:Except I believe there is a max of 2 troops choices from the allied codex(and 1 each of Elite, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support)

Right, but unless you're doing Razorback Spam you're not taking that many troop choices. (And if you're doing Razor Spam you should probably be using Space Wolves anyway.) No one was taking 6 full Tac Squads in their old Marine lists. This is about what you'd want to replace your one or two units of Tac Marines with now that there's an option. If you wouldn't replace your tac squads, please tell us why.

Didn't Tactical Marines just get a whole lot better with the new Rapid Fire rules? I thought they put that in there specifically to make Tactical Marines more worthwhile.

Yeah, it effectivly doubles their firepower at 24"

Orks and Nids beware.

And I've always found Tactical Marines to be a good unit.

I'm not sure the new ally rules will do anything more to kill vanilla tac marines then the half dozen shiny new variant marine books.

If a player was worried about their marines not being competitive enough, they've probably already jumped ship to one of the newer more competitive marine armies.

tgjensen wrote:Didn't Tactical Marines just get a whole lot better with the new Rapid Fire rules? I thought they put that in there specifically to make Tactical Marines more worthwhile.

Well, it's not that Tac Marines are better, but that Bolters are better. So if say Grey Hunters were better than Tacs in 5th, they're still better in 6th because they both got the same bump.

Amerikon wrote:

tgjensen wrote:Didn't Tactical Marines just get a whole lot better with the new Rapid Fire rules? I thought they put that in there specifically to make Tactical Marines more worthwhile.

Well, it's not that Tac Marines are better, but that Bolters are better. So if say Grey Hunters were better than Tacs in 5th, they're still better in 6th because they both got the same bump.

All rapid fire weapons got better. And what's the only race, iirc, that has Rapid Fire weapons with range>12"?
Not saying that the Tau have been saved, but some of these updates have been pretty helpful.

Krootox shooting 2 shots at 24"? Tau blasting anything within 30"?

tac marines are vanilla marines.. they really should just be the troops for vanilla marines imo. I liek my tactical terminators for dark angels, I like running assault marines for blood angels, or mix with scouts in black templar, it would make sense that the vanilla ultramarines are the ones with the basic tactics of all around instead of specialised marines.. al least that is how i see em

Tactical marines are not vanilla marines. Vanilla refers to them being the codex (plain) chapters....

And yet another THE SKY IS FALLING thread. Used well, tac marines are useful. The new rapid fire rules will have them cranking out a lot more shots. And they get lazerbacks as transports, so there's some non-heavy anti-tank support.

who would replace tac marines? for a model with fair CC, good ranged and excellent Ld stats, topped with a 3+ save, tac marines are enourmous value for points, the amount of times ive been defeated by a few tactical squads long after the fancy stuff is dead, its surprising people dont take more of them, they are a seriously undervalued unit

acekevin8412 wrote:All rapid fire weapons got better. And what's the only race, iirc, that has Rapid Fire weapons with range>12"?
Not saying that the Tau have been saved, but some of these updates have been pretty helpful.

Krootox shooting 2 shots at 24"? Tau blasting anything within 30"?

For the record, I think the only change to Rapid Fire is that you can move and shoot at full range. It's still 1 shot at full, 2 shots at half. You're not going to see 10 Fire Warriors making 20 S5 shots at 30".


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lukyboi wrote:who would replace tac marines? for a model with fair CC, good ranged and excellent Ld stats, topped with a 3+ save, tac marines are enourmous value for points, the amount of times ive been defeated by a few tactical squads long after the fancy stuff is dead, its surprising people dont take more of them, they are a seriously undervalued unit

You'd replace them with the other variants. Why take a tacs as troops when you can take Grey Hunters? They've got all that same jazz plus an extra attack in CC, Counter Attack, and Acute Senses. What's the downside? You're "forced" to take a Rune Priest? Oh the horror!

Amerikon wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:All rapid fire weapons got better. And what's the only race, iirc, that has Rapid Fire weapons with range>12"?
Not saying that the Tau have been saved, but some of these updates have been pretty helpful.

Krootox shooting 2 shots at 24"? Tau blasting anything within 30"?

For the record, I think the only change to Rapid Fire is that you can move and shoot at full range. It's still 1 shot at full, 2 shots at half. You're not going to see 10 Fire Warriors making 20 S5 shots at 30".

You are correct.

10 Shots at 30" or 20 at 15" outside charge range even at double tap range, barring 9+" for charge.

You still require the troops. The allies don't replace your own FOC.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Tactical marines are not vanilla marines. Vanilla refers to them being the codex (plain) chapters....

And yet another THE SKY IS FALLING thread. Used well, tac marines are useful. The new rapid fire rules will have them cranking out a lot more shots. And they get lazerbacks as transports, so there's some non-heavy anti-tank support.

sorry i didn't mean just vanailla marines, i meant as in the go to troop for vanilla marines. if i play a basic vanilla marines list i usually incluse tac marines and combat squad em.... rhino for the sarg w/ pf and flamer then 4 tac marines with a missile launcher 5th in cover. i still think it'll be effective for 6th and imo it fits the ultramrines way they seem the good at everythign but not amazing at anything and for the points they are a good model... still not an ork boy but damn close

Tactical squads have been dead for a while this isnt new lol, it just makes codex marines viable again.

Tactical Marines were never dead, simply sidelined by the overabundance of transports in the 5e metagame. If as I've heard the stopping power of lascannons against vehicles is increasing and the versatility of heavy weapons in general is improving, I could see Tactical Marines making a comeback.

TheMostWize wrote:I imagine you will be required to take a minimum amount of troops from your own codex as well. Just a guess could be wrong but I do not see why this would not be the case.

you still have to take the same number of troops as your usually did, 2.

You can ally, taking 1HQ, 1 Troops, and 0-1 something else in ADDITION to the troops you normally have to take.

AnomanderRake wrote:Tactical Marines were never dead, simply sidelined by the overabundance of transports in the 5e metagame. If as I've heard the stopping power of lascannons against vehicles is increasing and the versatility of heavy weapons in general is improving, I could see Tactical Marines making a comeback.

Lascannons are basically unchanged against vehicles. AP2 gives +1 to the Vehicle Damage Roll, but the outcomes on the chart have effectively been modified by -1 so it's a wash.

With the simple change to the rapid fire rules, Tactical Marines just became a lot better.

Tac marines are still good; you take the vanilla dex for cheap th/ss termis, lots of variety, and uber gunlines.

I can see allies providing the CC punch vanilla marines so desperately want. Twc supporting your 3 lasplas preds and 3 riflemen dreads? Yes please!

Andilus Greatsword wrote:With the simple change to the rapid fire rules, Tactical Marines just became a lot better.

Yes, but so did everything else armed with a bolter. Snap Fire and the ability to move some models in the unit while keeping others stationary also helps with the heavy weapon which is usually the odd man out. The question remains, Is it enough to make them worth taking instead of Grey Hunters (or any other allied troop option)?


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Zid wrote:Twc supporting your 3 lasplas preds and 3 riflemen dreads? Yes please!

Ok, but now you've got to buy a Space Wolf troop choice to unlock the Thunder Wolves. Tell me you're not going to just trade one of your normal Tac Squads for Grey Hunters in that case.

Amerikon wrote:

Zid wrote:Twc supporting your 3 lasplas preds and 3 riflemen dreads? Yes please!

Ok, but now you've got to buy a Space Wolf troop choice to unlock the Thunder Wolves. Tell me you're not going to just trade one of your normal Tac Squads for Grey Hunters in that case.

Yeah but are you going to lean all your battle plans on that one unit of Grey Hunters? If you want Grey Hunters so much more than Tac Marines, then you might as well play Space Wolves and then ally with the Marines rather than vice versa.

But if you do ally with the Wolves, then Grey Hunters are clearly a better choice than Blood Claws. And if you're doing effective list building, you kind of have to swap out one of your troops choices in favour of the allied one, or you're going to have a weak list.