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Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah but are you going to lean all your battle plans on that one unit of Grey Hunters? If you want Grey Hunters so much more than Tac Marines, then you might as well play Space Wolves and then ally with the Marines rather than vice versa.

Of course not. You're not going to pin all your strategy on a single Tac squad either. But that's not the point. The whole point here is that Codex Marine players can take troops from 6 different allied lists at almost no penalty, so why take Tac Marines?

The reduction of cover has indirectly improved them as well, You may well see those 5+ armour save armies feeling the sting of the boltgun more often, without laughing it off with their 4+ perpetual cover save that we saw in 5th.

The ability to glance av 10 vehicles to death at longer range will help out to no end as well against certain armies.

Amerikon wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah but are you going to lean all your battle plans on that one unit of Grey Hunters? If you want Grey Hunters so much more than Tac Marines, then you might as well play Space Wolves and then ally with the Marines rather than vice versa.

Of course not. You're not going to pin all your strategy on a single Tac squad either. But that's not the point. The whole point here is that Codex Marine players can take troops from 6 different allied lists at almost no penalty, so why take Tac Marines?

Because you also have to get an HQ which will almost always be at least 100pts?

Smitty0305 wrote:Tactical squads have been dead for a while this isnt new lol, it just makes codex marines viable again.

I never knew codex marines weren't viable. Good all around versatility, good mobility, access to some good characters, where is the weakness again?

vossyvo wrote:The reduction of cover has indirectly improved them as well, You may well see those 5+ armour save armies feeling the sting of the boltgun more often, without laughing it off with their 4+ perpetual cover save that we saw in 5th.

The ability to glance av 10 vehicles to death at longer range will help out to no end as well against certain armies.

5+ armies, hmm. DE and Eldar got nerfed so hard they are practically unplayable. IG is still there and they are not laughing. Orks are so happy that fearless wounds are gone they havent noticed their cover save is gone.

Giving the same response in 2 threads....

The largest change I see in 6th edition is tactical squads are no longer a complete tripe unit.

Improvement to rapid fire makes their main weapon (the botgun) useful again.

Nerfing of cover to 5+ hurts xenos more than MEQ.

Embarked troops gain relentless. Now the free missile launcher/MM on a tac squad can fire out the access hatch of a rhino while the transport is moving. In objective base games I see a common tactic being placing the sergeant, special weapon, and heavy weapon in one half of a combat squad inside a rhino, and the other 5 can stay on foot to use their bolters. Only 2 bolters or 1 bolter+ special weapon can't fire each turn, half the squad is protected in a rhino, the heavy weapon can move and shoot, and the squad can make good use of 5 bolters + special weapon + heavy weapon every turn.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Amerikon wrote:The whole point here is that Codex Marine players can take troops from 6 different allied lists at almost no penalty, so why take Tac Marines?

Because you also have to get an HQ which will almost always be at least 100pts?

Is that such a bad thing though? Won't it be beneficial to have a second Librarian or Rune Priest? How many Codex Marine players wish they could have JotWW or Living Lightning?

Amerikon wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Amerikon wrote:The whole point here is that Codex Marine players can take troops from 6 different allied lists at almost no penalty, so why take Tac Marines?

Because you also have to get an HQ which will almost always be at least 100pts?

Is that such a bad thing though? Won't it be beneficial to have a second Librarian or Rune Priest? How many Codex Marine players wish they could have JotWW or Living Lightning?

It's not necessarily a bad thing, no, but you still need 1 HQ and 2 Troops from Codex: Space Marines in the end. You also need to get other, more specialized, units for your army of course.

Embarked troops have relentless?

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Amerikon wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Amerikon wrote:The whole point here is that Codex Marine players can take troops from 6 different allied lists at almost no penalty, so why take Tac Marines?

Because you also have to get an HQ which will almost always be at least 100pts?

Is that such a bad thing though? Won't it be beneficial to have a second Librarian or Rune Priest? How many Codex Marine players wish they could have JotWW or Living Lightning?

It's not necessarily a bad thing, no, but you still need 1 HQ and 2 Troops from Codex: Space Marines in the end. You also need to get other, more specialized, units for your army of course.

What, like Sternguard, laspreds, TH/SS termies, that sort of thing?
It's a damn shame vanilla marines can't get them.


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SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Embarked troops have relentless?

Woah...the hell? Source on this?
My mech guard just started trembling...

Joey wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Amerikon wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Amerikon wrote:The whole point here is that Codex Marine players can take troops from 6 different allied lists at almost no penalty, so why take Tac Marines?

Because you also have to get an HQ which will almost always be at least 100pts?

Is that such a bad thing though? Won't it be beneficial to have a second Librarian or Rune Priest? How many Codex Marine players wish they could have JotWW or Living Lightning?

It's not necessarily a bad thing, no, but you still need 1 HQ and 2 Troops from Codex: Space Marines in the end. You also need to get other, more specialized, units for your army of course.

What, like Sternguard, laspreds, TH/SS termies, that sort of thing?
It's a damn shame vanilla marines can't get them.

No I meant that you need to spend your points on units like that, and if you're spending them all on Allied Troops then you're not going to get the Vanilla Marines' good stuff.

Yeah that's what a lot of people don't seem to get about allies. If the allies' units are so good, you'd just play with that army instead
It just allows cool things like traitor guard as a screening unit for chaos marines.

Hell with Rapid fire, Tau crisis suits with plasma rifles got a lot better.

Joey wrote:Yeah that's what a lot of people don't seem to get about allies. If the allies' units are so good, you'd just play with that army instead
It just allows cool things like traitor guard as a screening unit for chaos marines.

Yeah, agreed. I think, 2 months from now, the only people who are going to be taking Allies are people who are looking for a fluffy army, and some people who can get some limited use out of their allies' Battle Brothers. It's not going to be the game breaker some people are making it out to be at the moment.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Joey wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Amerikon wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Amerikon wrote:The whole point here is that Codex Marine players can take troops from 6 different allied lists at almost no penalty, so why take Tac Marines?

Because you also have to get an HQ which will almost always be at least 100pts?

Is that such a bad thing though? Won't it be beneficial to have a second Librarian or Rune Priest? How many Codex Marine players wish they could have JotWW or Living Lightning?

It's not necessarily a bad thing, no, but you still need 1 HQ and 2 Troops from Codex: Space Marines in the end. You also need to get other, more specialized, units for your army of course.

What, like Sternguard, laspreds, TH/SS termies, that sort of thing?
It's a damn shame vanilla marines can't get them.

No I meant that you need to spend your points on units like that, and if you're spending them all on Allied Troops then you're not going to get the Vanilla Marines' good stuff.

That's true, so let's quantify the penalty.

The least you can spend on two C:SM troop choices is 150 points. That can get you two min squads of Scouts (or Sniper Scouts). Then you have to pay for the allied HQ choice. Are C:SM players trying to minimize the amount of points they spend on HQs? I don't think so and in my experience I usually see people playing with either a single Captain (this includes SC Captains) or Librarian, one of each, or two Librarians. If you're playing with two HQs already, the cost of the allied HQ is basically zero. On top of that, the new psychic powers have made the Librarians of different chapters completely fungible.

That's what I'm trying to get at. If you can take anyone else's troops at a very low opportunity cost, isn't the default for a competitive list, "anything but tac marines"?


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Joey wrote:Yeah that's what a lot of people don't seem to get about allies. If the allies' units are so good, you'd just play with that army instead
It just allows cool things like traitor guard as a screening unit for chaos marines.

I disagree. If you're playing Tau, allying with Eldar to get a Farseer and whatever else will probably make your army better in almost every circumstance. There are plenty of armies that could benefit from an IG command squad calling out orders to their units. There are tons of untapped possibilities and with C:SM having the most chances for "Brothers In Arms" allies, C:SM is basically now C:SM and Friends.

@amerikon: Like Andilus said, if you want GH, then play wolves. If you want SM, then play SM.

That said, with the buff to Snipers, Tacs, etc. SM are in a great position to be competative. Yes, GH and Assault marines are better in general, but the SM codex is more balanced and will greatly benefit from some of the 6th rules. In general shooting got better while assault got worse (great generalization, I know)

Amerikon wrote:
I disagree. If you're playing Tau, allying with Eldar to get a Farseer and whatever else will probably make your army better in almost every circumstance. There are plenty of armies that could benefit from an IG command squad calling out orders to their units. There are tons of untapped possibilities and with C:SM having the most chances for "Brothers In Arms" allies, C:SM is basically now C:SM and Friends.

Farseer with ROW is 70 points, plus a squad of 5 dire avengers at 60 points gives 130 points for a pyscic defence which there is every chance you will not need. Helpful sure, but hardly game breaking.
IG orders explicitly state they may only be used against friendly Imperial Guard units so that's a no go (though the regimental advisors would help).
Most units are only powerful because they're part of the larger army - BA assault marines are powerful because everyone else also has jump packs and they're in fast transports. Take them out of that setting and they're far less useful.
In cases where the allied units were substantially better than the original army, you'd be better off just using the ally's army instead.

A Crusader squad and the Emperor's Champion.

I always wanted to use my model.

Joey wrote:Farseer with ROW is 70 points, plus a squad of 5 dire avengers at 60 points gives 130 points for a pyscic defence which there is every chance you will not need. Helpful sure, but hardly game breaking.

The Farseer isn't there for psychic defense, he's there for Guide, Doom, and Fortune. A Farseer is a force multiplier, especially for a shooty army. It goes so well with Tau it's not even funny.

Joey wrote:IG orders explicitly state they may only be used against friendly Imperial Guard units so that's a no go (though the regimental advisors would help).

IG orders can be given to any friendly non-vehicle unit.

Joey wrote:Most units are only powerful because they're part of the larger army - BA assault marines are powerful because everyone else also has jump packs and they're in fast transports. Take them out of that setting and they're far less useful.

BA assault squads are better because they have DoA, the ability to take real weapons, and are troops. Grey Hunters are better because they get +1A and counter-attack. Not sure if Templars are better, but they're certainly different. With the buff to 2+ saves, Deathwing seem to be vastly improved. None of these things are "game breaking" but none of them stop being good (or become less good) when removed from their parent lists.



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Zid wrote:Yes, GH and Assault marines are better in general, but the SM codex is more balanced and will greatly benefit from some of the 6th rules.

Then how is the SM Codex + GH not even better still? You get the "balanced" codex that just got buffed by 6th and the consensus best troops in the game (if you believe Dakka polls).

Don't forget Tac squads can now move any number of members of a squad, so you can move the 9 other guys and fire your HW standing still (counts as not moved)... also if you do decide to move the whole unit, some of the heavy weapons (ML) can fire "snapshot" (BS1).

Again, these are sweeping changes across all codexs but seem to affect tac marine units especially.

It's not a question of "If you like that army play it". There are some armies with gigantic weaknesses that will be shored up with this. I think Tau is the best example. Farseer is good, combine that with some of eldars better foot troops and you might not die every time someone starts their round within 12" of you (or orks start within what.. 24? I dunno with the new changes) and your broadsides wont just auto-die to mind war or be terrible victims of lash (and the rumored 6 up is still not my idea of a psychic defense). A grey wolf runepriest with some grey wolf troops would be even better, counterattack is probably the best thing for what tau want, just a better defense line to assault.

Voodoo wrote:It's not a question of "If you like that army play it".

Exactly. I was hoping that this thread would have an interesting discussion about new ways to field C:SM armies. Instead it's just a bunch of people saying "love it or leave it".

@amerikon: because you initially stated "well this this and this are better then tac marines, why bother?" (Basically).

Its simple: yes, gh, ams, etc. Are more "better" than tacs. And I'm not saying if your running allies you won't sub 1 unit or 2 of tacs for allied troops. But it depends on many factors; your list overall, tactics, playstyle, what are you trying to accomplish, etc....

That said, if you wanna run sm with allies, personally id run:

Libby w/ buff powers
Rune priest w/ attack pwrs
Rifleman dread
Rifleman dread
7x sternguard in pod with a few combis
9x gh w/ 1x melta, motw, banner, pf in pod (rhinos seem meh now)
10x gh w/ 2x melta, motw, banner, pf in pod
10x scout snipers
10x scout snipers w/ telion
4x twc - pf, 2x ss
Las/plas pred
Las/plas pred
6x missilefangs

Not sure on the total cost, but its very shooty, and very punchy.
This is an example of how id run some sm with wolves. This uses the best of both dexes; tons of sm firepower, lots of midrange wolfy power.

A lot of people are saying love it or leave it because you posed your question as though "well why take tacticals in sm when I can take allied gh". Well, the free weapons, running from combats when you want to, and lots of bolter firepower are a few reasons. Oh, and having a sergeant so your running 25 percent of the time instead of 33..... Gh are great, if a bit costly once kitted to do their job.

Boltguns / rapid fire got a decent buff. I'm not sure BS3 snipers are better after the buff, considering they weren't before. Although snipers did get their own buff. Overall I am liking tacticals better now than in 5th. I know I'll keep using them, even if I ditch the rhinos.

Here's a list that I'd been thinking about, but I wanted to wait until I could figure out the points.

Vulkan Strike Force - 2000pts wrote:
Core List
HQ
Vulkan

Elite
Sternguard - 7x, 2 w/ Combi-Melta, 2w/ Combi-Flamer, Drop Pod
Dreadnought - Hvy Flamer, MM, Drop Pod
Dreadnought - Hvy Flamer, MM, Drop Pod

Troops
Scouts - 5x, Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks, Teleport Homer
Scouts - 5x, Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks, Teleport Homer

Fast Attack
Land Speeder - Hvy Flamer, MM
Land Speeder - Hvy Flamer, MM

Allies (Blood Angels)
HQ
Terminator Librarian - Storm Shield

Elite
Terminator Assault Squad - 5x, TH/SS

Troops
Assault Squad - 10x, 2 w/ Flamer, Sgt w/ TH
Assault Squad - 10x, 2 w/ Flamer, Sgt w/ TH

Hide those poor Scouts somewhere and hope they survive since everything else is reserved. Then you just start deep striking and all hell breaks loose. I don't know how good it is and you've got a lot potentially riding on those Scouts being able to hang around for a turn or two, but it should be a pretty fun army.

Scout bikers?
Rapid Fire Grenade Launchers on relentless platforms.
6 krak shots at 24" or 9 at 12".
Or 9 blasts at 12".

Pretty freak'n good deal for ~100 points.

-Matt

Haven't people been crying the end of tactical marines since 3rd edition?

They aren't going anywhere, they've gotten a tad more useful and many of their most dangerous opponents are going to have more trouble engaging them effectively due to changes to the assault rules. They'll be fine overall.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Scout bikers?
Rapid Fire Grenade Launchers on relentless platforms.
6 krak shots at 24" or 9 at 12".
Or 9 blasts at 12".

Pretty freak'n good deal for ~100 points.

-Matt

That's a good point there, I love Scout Bikes, I wish Space Wolves could take them... well maybe they can now...