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They just seem like a cheesy snipe/negate attempt that will benefit certain armies (anyone with high initiative) while hurting others. For example: Trazyn the Infinite's Empathic Obliterator can deal a lot of wounds at the end of combat, but only to units of the same name as one he killed. If he's locked in a challenge and manages to win, it essentially gets to do nothing unless he's being attacked by a mob of like named characters. Another example is how hidden power fists/claws are now easy to keep out of a fight. A Hive Tyrant can now charge the group of 30 boys+1 Nob and issue a challange. Accept=dead nob with no power claw attacks. Decline=no power claw attacks and lots of dead boys. The challenge can even be issued every turn to keep the targeted character inactive.
Worst of all, a lone character can charge, win a challenge, and sweeping advance the rest of the squad.

All these can be annoying, kind of cheesy, but is that really a reason to hate them? For those reasons alone, no. Plenty of odd, cheesy stuff existed before and will continue to exist. The primary reason for Challenges to garner my hate is the lack of a proper defense. Either accept the Challenge or lose everything. This would have been the perfect place for a leadership test. Any good commander knows a battlefield is no place for a duel. Any good rampaging horde will ignore the guy yammering upfront and overrun him.

I'll certainly be happy to house rule it out with my friends, but I don't look forward to this new, easily abused cheese popping up in tournament/league play. Anyone else feel similar?

Man up. Face the challenge.

Welcome to warhammer fantasy

Risk it all or leaving crying

That said if you got enough support maybe the rerolls will put things in your favor

It would make sense for Tyranids to ignore challenges, I mean they just wouldn't care. Although if I understand it right the Lash Whip Hive Tyrant will do well in challenges.

It is probably designed to make fighty heroes more viable, as much in defense as offense. Might mean we see more space marine captains / ork warbosses wandering around rather than their librarian / big mek counterparts?

Noone takes Trazyn for his cc powers anyway...no power weapon = full armor save = might just take another model that actually proves useful.

Also..eh...Necrons REALLY should not complain. Our Overlords are S7, ignore any armor save and have MSS that totally rape face.

A big mek with a burna is pretty good at killing opposing characters.

well, at first I was like "wooooo mephiston will own in challenges"

then I was all like "what do you mean force weapons aren't power weapons -.-"

looks like 6thed is already messing people's armies up big time :/

Hidden PFists have been way to strong for way too long. They are the very reason for the Eternal Warrior balancing act we've been dealing with since 4th. Dante shouldn't die horribly to some random bitch with a PFist. Really all the CC beat stick characters are much more viable now, where for the whole of 5th they took a clear back seat to squad/force multiplier characters.

Sigvatr wrote:Noone takes Trazyn for his cc powers anyway...no power weapon = full armor save = might just take another model that actually proves useful.

Also..eh...Necrons REALLY should not complain. Our Overlords are S7, ignore any armor save and have MSS that totally rape face.

Challenges are not directed anyways. Once a challenge is issued any character in Trazyn's unit can accept the challenge, so a MSS/war scythe lord attached to the unit can accept can accept while Trazen dumps his attacks into the unit. With MSS necrons should be the last army out there complaining about challenges.

Except Dante now has a Power Axe, which is +1S, but strikes at I1 along with the powerfists

LOL. Hadn't even thought about poor, old Dante. So much for DoA lists. Dante will be shelved just like a lot of powerklaw nobz and power fist sergeants.

I play necrons, mss on my Lords of course...I think it's broke and just evil...gonna see how this plays with by buddy, if it's as lame as we think it'll be...HOUSE RULE!

actually, im pretty sure Dante's Axe is a special weapon?

Arschbombe wrote:LOL. Hadn't even thought about poor, old Dante. So much for DoA lists. Dante will be shelved just like a lot of powerklaw nobz and power fist sergeants.

Why should we shelf PK nobz? Unless you are wielding a powerfist yourself, they aren't exactly easy to kill for your usual squad leader.

DPBellathrom wrote:well, at first I was like "wooooo mephiston will own in challenges"

then I was all like "what do you mean force weapons aren't power weapons -.-"

looks like 6thed is already messing people's armies up big time :/

There are now three types of Force Weapons
Force Swords which are Power Swords with Force
Force Axes are Power Axes with Force
Force Staves are Power Mauls with Force

With the challenge, you either let the opponent direct his character's attacks at your nob directly, or your nob doesn't fight. Most characters are going to be able to fight before the nob and have a good chance of killing him before he gets to do anything. It inverts the situation we had in 5th where the nob was protected by his boyz and then able to attack to full effect.

So you're comparing a squad leader to an army leaders and saying the army leader is winning?
Duh.
Put a warboss in with the nob, and let the nob soak the challenge. Warboss goes to town.

-Matt

Fafnir13 wrote:They just seem like a cheesy snipe/negate attempt that will benefit certain armies (anyone with high initiative) while hurting others. For example: Trazyn the Infinite's Empathic Obliterator can deal a lot of wounds at the end of combat, but only to units of the same name as one he killed. If he's locked in a challenge and manages to win, it essentially gets to do nothing unless he's being attacked by a mob of like named characters. Another example is how hidden power fists/claws are now easy to keep out of a fight. A Hive Tyrant can now charge the group of 30 boys+1 Nob and issue a challange. Accept=dead nob with no power claw attacks. Decline=no power claw attacks and lots of dead boys. The challenge can even be issued every turn to keep the targeted character inactive.
Worst of all, a lone character can charge, win a challenge, and sweeping advance the rest of the squad.

All these can be annoying, kind of cheesy, but is that really a reason to hate them? For those reasons alone, no. Plenty of odd, cheesy stuff existed before and will continue to exist. The primary reason for Challenges to garner my hate is the lack of a proper defense. Either accept the Challenge or lose everything. This would have been the perfect place for a leadership test. Any good commander knows a battlefield is no place for a duel. Any good rampaging horde will ignore the guy yammering upfront and overrun him.

I'll certainly be happy to house rule it out with my friends, but I don't look forward to this new, easily abused cheese popping up in tournament/league play. Anyone else feel similar?

I'll just itemize the problems with your logic, to cut down on time.

1. A Hive Tyrant isn't an independent character, therefore can't declare a challenge.
2. Challenges have been around since Fantasy, which are designed specifically so that people can't hide an Indy inside a horde and call themselves successful.
3. There's no such thing as a "hidden" power fist. Either the opponent has one, or he doesn't. Ask at the beginning of the game, like literally everyone should.
4. If you don't want to be challenged, keep your HQs out of the fight. If you're running a close combat list and don't want your HQs to get in the fight, then don't run close combat lists. It's a strategy meant for those willing to throw themselves into a fight, not sit back and shoot.
5. Read the rules before you complain.

If you're running a CC army, then you should want to get in as much damage as possible, and challenged are a good way to keep your IC from being swamped by ten bros while still being useful. If you're running a shooty list, then you are complaining about. . .what? The fact that challenges are going to help balance out things like improved shooting weapons and things like Overwatch?

Javelin09 wrote:

Fafnir13 wrote:They just seem like a cheesy snipe/negate attempt that will benefit certain armies (anyone with high initiative) while hurting others. For example: Trazyn the Infinite's Empathic Obliterator can deal a lot of wounds at the end of combat, but only to units of the same name as one he killed. If he's locked in a challenge and manages to win, it essentially gets to do nothing unless he's being attacked by a mob of like named characters. Another example is how hidden power fists/claws are now easy to keep out of a fight. A Hive Tyrant can now charge the group of 30 boys+1 Nob and issue a challange. Accept=dead nob with no power claw attacks. Decline=no power claw attacks and lots of dead boys. The challenge can even be issued every turn to keep the targeted character inactive.
Worst of all, a lone character can charge, win a challenge, and sweeping advance the rest of the squad.

All these can be annoying, kind of cheesy, but is that really a reason to hate them? For those reasons alone, no. Plenty of odd, cheesy stuff existed before and will continue to exist. The primary reason for Challenges to garner my hate is the lack of a proper defense. Either accept the Challenge or lose everything. This would have been the perfect place for a leadership test. Any good commander knows a battlefield is no place for a duel. Any good rampaging horde will ignore the guy yammering upfront and overrun him.

I'll certainly be happy to house rule it out with my friends, but I don't look forward to this new, easily abused cheese popping up in tournament/league play. Anyone else feel similar?

I'll just itemize the problems with your logic, to cut down on time.

1. A Hive Tyrant isn't an independent character, therefore can't declare a challenge.
2. Challenges have been around since Fantasy, which are designed specifically so that people can't hide an Indy inside a horde and call themselves successful.
3. There's no such thing as a "hidden" power fist. Either the opponent has one, or he doesn't. Ask at the beginning of the game, like literally everyone should.
4. If you don't want to be challenged, keep your HQs out of the fight. If you're running a close combat list and don't want your HQs to get in the fight, then don't run close combat lists. It's a strategy meant for those willing to throw themselves into a fight, not sit back and shoot.
5. Read the rules before you complain.

Hive tyrants are Characters and can issue challanges (check the reference in the back of the book)
ALso, a hidden power fist is what you discribed. "so that people can't hide an Indy inside a horde and call themselves successful". Cause of wound allocation you couldn't directly target the PF and so it was "hidden".

I'm excited to see what challanges brings to the table and how it will change list building. I think power weapons will be loads more popular now and that we'll see many MEQ run a power sword + melta bomb sergeant instead of a powerfist (I know I will)

Krellnus wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:well, at first I was like "wooooo mephiston will own in challenges"

then I was all like "what do you mean force weapons aren't power weapons -.-"

looks like 6thed is already messing people's armies up big time :/

There are now three types of Force Weapons
Force Swords which are Power Swords with Force
Force Axes are Power Axes with Force
Force Staves are Power Mauls with Force

yeah your right, mephiston's still good to go thank god :3


also, khans going to have fun using gorechild seeing as it's power axe. being T4 and swinging last in a challange isn't good news

By Mork and Gork what Ork Nob WOULDN'T take a challenge? All the fluff has Ork leaders looking for the biggest and 'ardest bloke to fight just to prove they are the best

Haven't yet had a chance to have a game, and yes if you are scared your big bad boss will lose in a challenge... make a cheap sargent take the fall while you wipe out the other unit

Challenges are stupid in my opinion and dont belong in 40k, fantasy yeah, theyre awesome and add flavour. 40K no, its just gunna become a silly way of invalidating peoples squad leaders and getting around bodyguard units. Plus nids accepting challenges? Dark eldar agreeing to stand about and not stab some upstart commander in the face with the first chance they get? Really? The actual rules for fighting a challenge are cool, but they way theyre initiated is annoying imo. I reckon you should take a LD test, if passed, your choice weather to fight the challenge or fight as normal, fail, have to fight or back down

Ol'Dirty wrote:It would make sense for Tyranids to ignore challenges, I mean they just wouldn't care. Although if I understand it right the Lash Whip Hive Tyrant will do well in challenges.

Because the Hive mind sees no tactical value in removing leaders and symbolic champions on the field of battle

to INSULTS ARE A VIOLATION OF DAKKA RULE 1 op, any character can accept. Send a cryptek, or an mss lord. DON'T INSULT PEOPLE.-MANNAHNIN use you head and own the rule.

Arschbombe wrote:With the challenge, you either let the opponent direct his character's attacks at your nob directly, or your nob doesn't fight. Most characters are going to be able to fight before the nob and have a good chance of killing him before he gets to do anything. It inverts the situation we had in 5th where the nob was protected by his boyz and then able to attack to full effect.

p. weap Tac sarge vs nob-
Tac sarge swings 3 times, hits 1.5 times (im assuming rolls to hit in CC are the same?)
Wounds 0.75 times
...a nob has two wounds which leaves him on average alive.
...the nob swings 3 times with a powerklaw...
This works vs Wolf guard squad leaders, chaos marine champs of the non-bezerker variety, and even the plain old SM libby or runepriest. The PK nob isn't shelved yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bobug wrote:Challenges are stupid in my opinion and dont belong in 40k, fantasy yeah, theyre awesome and add flavour. 40K no, its just gunna become a silly way of invalidating peoples squad leaders and getting around bodyguard units. Plus nids accepting challenges? Dark eldar agreeing to stand about and not stab some upstart commander in the face with the first chance they get? Really? The actual rules for fighting a challenge are cool, but they way theyre initiated is annoying imo. I reckon you should take a LD test, if passed, your choice weather to fight the challenge or fight as normal, fail, have to fight or back down

I think there should be some extra rules myself. In the nids example- yes. I can see having a leaderbeast cut down in an enemy commander in a challenge in melee happening. I can also see the 'nids not caring about the challenge. I don't see a bloodletter champion, for example, hiding in his unit to avoid melee combat, i just don't see it. A rule that allows a character to ignore a challenge and still fight would make sense for some units.

Dante is better off with a Power Axe over a Sword. I1 is no big deal in 6th ed.

Yep, and when are you going to have dante running around by himself without at least a squad sergeant hanging out? Problem solved

Also on a side tangent, MSS got a big hit since you dont pile in until your initiative and need to be in BTB at the start. Just something to be aware of. Challenges however are exempt as they count as being in BTB

I'm really looking forward to challenges, personally. I've been running a CC beatstick Wolf Lord since 3rd Edition. In 5th, he was kind of a fun waste of points, but not exactly a competitive choice. However, with challenges he'll finally be in his element. And he might actually achieve his Saga of the Bear sometimes now haha. Although Arjac will have to be dead before he can accept/issue a challenge I suppose...