I already hate Challenges...

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Radiation**

Page 61

"Types of Power Weapons"

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules..."

Page 39

Heading "Special Rules"

"Master-crafted"

It can't use the table to unlock the Power axe stats.

**Freman Bloodglaive**

So you'd have him as S4, AP3, master-crafted?

Suit yourself.

**Radiation**

I think it would be great to play him with Power axe stats that are master-crafted, but the rules don't allow it. Also The Axe Mortalis is a unique rule to Dante. No one else has the rule The Axe Mortalis to resolve attacks in an assault. Its not about "suiting myself."

**Kaldor**

Radiation wrote:
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Radiation wrote:Since Dante's The Axe Mortalis has one or more extra rules so it cannot use the Power axe table stats. It falls under the Unusual Power Weapons rule that uses the profile AP 3 Melee as well as its additional rules. There is no such thing as a Power axe that is master-crafted in the rulebook. Lemartes and Kharn were individually FAQed to use different weapons profiles not so you could creatively decide to change other characters Unusual Power Weapons to your liking.

Dante's axe has no special rules. It is simply a power axe that is master-crafted (master-crafting is in the rulebook). Astaroth has a special weapon, it's a strength 6 power weapon, so strength 6, AP3, strikes at initiative, forces re-rolls of successful ward saves.

Show me where it says in the rulebook that "Power Weapons" "Types of Power Weapons" or "Power axe" have access to master-crafted.

This is what I see, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules..."

Since The Axe Mortalis is master crafted and master-crafted is described under "Special Rules" then The Axe Mortalis cannot fit under the "Types of Power Weapons" category that unlocks the stat table for "Power axe."

It instead falls in the "Unusual Power Weapons" category as AP 3 Melee.

Oh, don't be ridiculous. A Master Crafted Thunderhammer is still AP2, and a master crafted Axe is still an Axe.

**Freman Bloodglaive**

No point in arguing about it. As long as he's consistent and agrees that Vulkan's master-crafted relic blade is not a relic blade, a Paladin's master-crafted psycannon is not a psycannon, and Belial's master-crafted power sword is not a power sword we can just keep going.

**Radiation**

What are the rules for Vulkan's Relic Blade? Has it been FAQ'd?

Psy-cannons are not power weapons so they are not subject to the Types of Power Weapons table.

Has Belial been FAQ'd? What are his new rules?

All I'm doing is reading the rules for how Dante works. I don't think these other examples have anything to do with The Axe Mortalis since it is unique to Dante.

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:No point in arguing about it. As long as he's consistent and agrees that Vulkan's master-crafted relic blade is not a relic blade, a Paladin's master-crafted psycannon is not a psycannon, and Belial's master-crafted power sword is not a power sword we can just keep going.

Its no fun if its consistant.

Personally I dont like the challenge system, for it guarantees I lose a SGT in melee, but if i decline my commissar cant do squat.

**Titan Atlas**

It's kinda fun, I mean, so long as you know initiative of the guy you're challenging. I didn't, and got totally bitten in the ass by that despite being easily able to chew him out if my guy survived the strikes.

**Kaldor**

Sigvatr wrote:
Kaldor wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
Kaldor wrote:I'm not up to date with the new necron stuff, what is MSS and how does it work?

MSS = Mind Shackle Scarabs. If in b2b with the model that carries MSS, the enemy model must take a LD test with 3(!)d6. If the model fails the test, it does not attack normally. Instead of its normal attacks, it attacks his unit or, if it's alone, itself with D3 attacks. Normal weapon modificators apply, the Necron player may decide which weapon is going to be used in case the model carries more than one. It's dirt cheap too.

Hmm, so how does that work with multiple pile-in moves at different initiative steps? I mean, for a challenge you're always considered to be in base-to-base so it doesn't matter, but what about regular combat? Does it have to be in base to base at the start of the combat, or only when it is that models turn to strike?

When more than one model is in b2b with your character, you roll to decide which one is going to be affected by MSS. Effect comes to play at the start of the assault phase thus before pile-in moves.

Well, that's confusing as hell for challenges. if MSS takes effect at the start of the assault phase, but a challenge is issued at the start of the fight sub-phase, when does MSS actually take effect? Before or after the challenger/challengee are moved?

And another related question on challenges: How many wounds is it possible to score? For example, in a WHFB challenge, you can score (I think) W+5 wounds, where W = the number of wounds the dead character had on it's profile.

If a super killy character challenges a sergeant and inflicts 8 wounds, does that count as 8 wounds, or only 1?

**Hashulaman**

I love the Challenge system, then again I play Chaos Marines, if I can't fight a challenge with a Daemon Prince or Terminator Lord, something is horribly wrong. One character in particular has gotten my attention, Typhus. He is an absolute beast, his offensive power has only increased a little, but the fact he is so hard to kill now. ID has to be done on a S10 hit as well as to negate FnP. Yea He goes last, but depending on what he fights, there is a real good chance he will be alive by his turn and then proceed to break his opponents face.

**Freman Bloodglaive**

Radiation wrote:What are the rules for Vulkan's Relic Blade? Has it been FAQ'd?

Psy-cannons are not power weapons so they are not subject to the Types of Power Weapons table.

Has Belial been FAQ'd? What are his new rules?

All I'm doing is reading the rules for how Dante works. I don't think these other examples have anything to do with The Axe Mortalis since it is unique to Dante.

Relic blades don't need FAQs. They're S6 power weapons so AP3. Master-crafting means he gets 1 re-roll to hit.

Psy-cannons don't need an FAQ, their status is entirely clear to everyone.

Belial doesn't need an FAQ, he has a master-crafted power sword.

Dante doesn't need an FAQ, he has a master-crafted power axe called the Axe Mortalis. The clue is in the name.

When something is so blatantly obvious it is indeed ridiculous to argue against it.

**Radiation**

There is another thread about Blood Angel Power Weapons if you want to continue the obvious ridiculousness over there.

**SagesStone**

Kaldor wrote:Well, that's confusing as hell for challenges. if MSS takes effect at the start of the assault phase, but a challenge is issued at the start of the fight sub-phase, when does MSS actually take effect? Before or after the challenger/challengee are moved?

Depends. Sometimes MSS will probably go first and sometimes it'll go at the same time. Really needs to be clarified.

**meh_**

I don't know for sure, but if ICs grant their special rules to the squad they have joined (f.e. fearless), then Celestine + Seraphim issuing challenges left and right will be one annoying unit.

**Tarrasq**

n0t_u wrote:
Kaldor wrote:Well, that's confusing as hell for challenges. if MSS takes effect at the start of the assault phase, but a challenge is issued at the start of the fight sub-phase, when does MSS actually take effect? Before or after the challenger/challengee are moved?

Depends. Sometimes MSS will probably go first and sometimes it'll go at the same time. Really needs to be clarified.

The actual attacks generated by MSS happens at the affected models initiative. You determine who is affected at the start of the fight sub-phase as per the Necron FAQ.

The thing to fear now is the surfboard overlords. D6 S6 I10 hammer of wrath attacks, MSS that even the highest LD fails half the time, "free" 2+ save, and can leave combat during its movement phase allowing a sweep attack and a second charge. It's an AV 13 fast skimmer to boot.

**Sigvatr**

The CCB has to survive the first round of combat though...and AV 11 is not that hard to get by.

**Sasa0mg**

wewt

bring in lilith!

**rogueeyes**

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Dante is better off with a Power Axe over a Sword. I1 is no big deal in 6th ed.

Having a power axe is good only since he has a 2+ save. Mc will most likely own sc in most combat now.

**captain collius**

I had my first challenge this weekend my friends Slaanesh Deamon prince was assault by my 5 man deathwing TH/SS squad with Belial counts-as with TH/SS.

Even though he struck first and tried to kill me, I won this brings to mind the first new saying of six.

No risks = no victories.

**L'Etat C'Est Moi**

Ol'Dirty wrote:It would make sense for Tyranids to ignore challenges, I mean they just wouldn't care. Although if I understand it right the Lash Whip Hive Tyrant will do well in challenges.

Forget the Tyrant. For 105 points you can get a Tyranid Prime with Lashwhip, Bonesword, Scything Talons, and Poison. Anyone he fights is I1 and he has five attacks on the charge. The Prime hits nearly everything on a 3 with rerolls to wound and wounds almost everything on a rerollable 3 that ignores armor. Exactly the kind of unit I want in a challenge. T5 makes he resilient against fists and hammers too. Not to mention being an IC, he is way easier to get across the table than a Tyrant.

Edit-Fixed punctuation.

**Tye_Informer**

I guess my crypeks with no upgrades are looking good. Single Wound Character that I can let respond to a challenge and just go away, taking with it all excess hits by the IC, good chance he's reanimating so bonus. If the enemy doesn't challenge, then I challenge with the same Cryptek! (And hope that my squad is able to do enough wounds to win the assault and not fallback/get swept) It's a brilliant plan.

**Titan Atlas**

Dante's power axe is a power axe, with the master-crafted special rule, but no actual special factors about his weapon. The ridiculousness is anybody suggesting it is anything else.

**Grey Templar**

Javelin09 wrote:
Fafnir13 wrote:They just seem like a cheesy snipe/negate attempt that will benefit certain armies (anyone with high initiative) while hurting others. For example: Trazyn the Infinite's Empathic Obliterator can deal a lot of wounds at the end of combat, but only to units of the same name as one he killed. If he's locked in a challenge and manages to win, it essentially gets to do nothing unless he's being attacked by a mob of like named characters. Another example is how hidden power fists/claws are now easy to keep out of a fight. A Hive Tyrant can now charge the group of 30 boys+1 Nob and issue a challange. Accept=dead nob with no power claw attacks. Decline=no power claw attacks and lots of dead boys. The challenge can even be issued every turn to keep the targeted character inactive.
Worst of all, a lone character can charge, win a challenge, and sweeping advance the rest of the squad.

All these can be annoying, kind of cheesy, but is that really a reason to hate them? For those reasons alone, no. Plenty of odd, cheesy stuff existed before and will continue to exist. The primary reason for Challenges to garner my hate is the lack of a proper defense. Either accept the Challenge or lose everything. This would have been the perfect place for a leadership test. Any good commander knows a battlefield is no place for a duel. Any good rampaging horde will ignore the guy yammering upfront and overrun him.

I'll certainly be happy to house rule it out with my friends, but I don't look forward to this new, easily abused cheese popping up in tournament/league play. Anyone else feel similar?

I'll just itemize the problems with your logic, to cut down on time.

1. A Hive Tyrant isn't an independent character, therefore can't declare a challenge.
2. Challenges have been around since Fantasy, which are designed specifically so that people can't hide an Indy inside a horde and call themselves successful.
3. There's no such thing as a "hidden" power fist. Either the opponent has one, or he doesn't. Ask at the beginning of the game, like literally everyone should.
4. If you don't want to be challenged, keep your HQs out of the fight. If you're running a close combat list and don't want your HQs to get in the fight, then don't run close combat lists. It's a strategy meant for those willing to throw themselves into a fight, not sit back and shoot.
5. Read the rules before you complain.

Hive Tyrants are Characters and so can issue challanges. You don't have to be an Independent Character to issue one. Sergeants and the like can issue challanges.

**Joe Mama**

Seems this challenge deal helps out Space Wolves? An attached Wolf Guard acts like a sarge, and can challenge or be challenged, fine, but a regular Grey Hunter can also buy a fist or a power weapon. So it seems Space Wolves can still hide their fists in squads if they wish!

**azazel the cat**

Tye_Informer wrote:I guess my crypeks with no upgrades are looking good. Single Wound Character that I can let respond to a challenge and just go away, taking with it all excess hits by the IC, good chance he's reanimating so bonus. If the enemy doesn't challenge, then I challenge with the same Cryptek! (And hope that my squad is able to do enough wounds to win the assault and not fallback/get swept) It's a brilliant plan.

Okay, there are so many things wrong with this I'm actually kinda sad.

1) Why are you not upgrading your Cryptek to become:
-the best anti-tank gun in the game (Storm)
-a Night Fight enabling Str 8 AP 2 cannon (Destruction)
-a teleporting template weapon (Despair)

2) Why are you not taking a Lord/Overlord w/ Warscythe and MSS? This is basically an insta-win situation in a challenge. 3d6 against Ld 10 = 50% chance to pass. So at least half of the time, the Necrons will win the challenge by default. And that's even before using the Warscythe, which may be arguably the best CC weapon in 40k right now since it swings ahead of all the unwieldly AP2 weapons like power axes and fists, it grants +2 strength like a power axe, and it deals 2d6 armour pen and even adds +2 on the armour pen chart!

3) Why are you responding to a challenge? What idiot would ever challenge a Necron with MSS & a Warscythe?

4) Why are you not challenging EVERYONE? Seriously, even a Draigo has a 50% of stabbing himself in the face against the Necrons. The only two characters I would even consider holding off from aggressively challenging would be Crowe and Lukas the Trickster; and even then only if it was an Overlord, and not a regular Lord that I was risking.

5) You can take Lords in every troop unit! Do it! A Lord w/ Warscythe & MSS is only 60 points! And if your opponent denies the challenge, then his Sergeant gets to have a time-out, and you still get to MSS another model!

**Andilus Greatsword**

Joe Mama wrote:Seems this challenge deal helps out Space Wolves? An attached Wolf Guard acts like a sarge, and can challenge or be challenged, fine, but a regular Grey Hunter can also buy a fist or a power weapon. So it seems Space Wolves can still hide their fists in squads if they wish!

Yeah, but our squad's fists are really expensive in comparison to other codices (yeah I know, they're Grey Hunters, boo hoo). I might keep my squads with just power weapons, or save the points and just rely on my Wulfen to continue to do the job.

**azazel the cat**

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Joe Mama wrote:Seems this challenge deal helps out Space Wolves? An attached Wolf Guard acts like a sarge, and can challenge or be challenged, fine, but a regular Grey Hunter can also buy a fist or a power weapon. So it seems Space Wolves can still hide their fists in squads if they wish!

Yeah, but our squad's fists are really expensive in comparison to other codices (yeah I know, they're Grey Hunters, boo hoo). I might keep my squads with just power weapons, or save the points and just rely on my Wulfen to continue to do the job.

Regarding challenges, I think one of the funnier aspects would be to have Bjorn challenge someone. That way he can't get swarmed or tarpitted.

**Kaldor**

So does anyone have an answer re: Overkill?

Say I hit and wound with 6 attacks.

My opponent gets no save.

My opponent only had a single wound on his profile.

Do I score 6 points for combat resolution, or 1 point?

I think it's 6 points, the way the rules are written, but I'd like to know what other people think.

Tarrasq wrote:The actual attacks generated by MSS happens at the affected models initiative. You determine who is affected at the start of the fight sub-phase as per the Necron FAQ.

This is important for challenges, because unless the challenger and challengee were in direct base contact immediately after assault moves, the MSS cannot effect the challenge. They'll still effect whoever the Necron model was in BtB with at the start of the assault phase, but if that wasn't the enemy involved in the challenge he won't have to worry about them.

**Raern**

It looks to me like combat ICs are the simplest answer to challenges. A monstrous creature character is in trouble if it gets locked in a challenge against a space marine captain with TH/SS who has 10 onlookers giving him two potential rerolls on that SS save. (Can't reroll a reroll, but the mathhammer is not good for the MC.)

There are rules for a counter-charging character to intercept a challenge too if the first round is survived.

I could see, as an example, an infantry-based marine army using a squad of 10 (sniper?) scouts with a combat captain to guard their fire-base against assault.

Additionally under some circumstances an unupgraded Sgt can sacrifice himself to hold off a lone character or dangerous power weapon, then the squad runs away or waits for counter-charge.

**azazel the cat**

Kaldor wrote:
Tarrasq wrote:The actual attacks generated by MSS happens at the affected models initiative. You determine who is affected at the start of the fight sub-phase as per the Necron FAQ.

This is important for challenges, because unless the challenger and challengee were in direct base contact immediately after assault moves, the MSS cannot effect the challenge. They'll still effect whoever the Necron model was in BtB with at the start of the assault phase, but if that wasn't the enemy involved in the challenge he won't have to worry about them.

I do not have an answer to your question about overkill; I would like to know myself. Similarly, I would like to kno what happens to a unit with regards to Sweeping Advance if they attack a lone IC who challenges and wins.

However, with respect to the MSS: the challenge rules say that the two combatants are considered to be in b2b with each other only. So MSS definitely does wreck face in a challenge.