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Count me in on challenges. I think they will add a lot to the narrative fun of playing with heroic characters.

HawaiiMatt wrote:So you're comparing a squad leader to an army leaders and saying the army leader is winning?
Duh.
Put a warboss in with the nob, and let the nob soak the challenge. Warboss goes to town.

-Matt

Adding a warboss to the squad changes the dynamic. I'm talking about basic squad leaders challenging each other. A tactical sergeant can now kill the nob before he can swing which can tilt the balance of the combat.

Jihallah wrote:
p. weap Tac sarge vs nob-
Tac sarge swings 3 times, hits 1.5 times (im assuming rolls to hit in CC are the same?)
Wounds 0.75 times
...a nob has two wounds which leaves him on average alive.
...the nob swings 3 times with a powerklaw...
This works vs Wolf guard squad leaders, chaos marine champs of the non-bezerker variety, and even the plain old SM libby or runepriest. The PK nob isn't shelved yet.

With the charge the sergeant will get 4 attacks and has a decent chance (25%) of doing 2 wounds to the nob. If he doesn't kill the nob, then he's almost certainly dead, but he does have the chance. Before he never had that chance because you had to kill all the boyz before the nob could be hurt.

Nobz might not all get shelved, but I think it's almost a given that the powerfist sergeant is an endangered species now.

Arschbombe wrote:With the charge the sergeant will get 4 attacks and has a decent chance (25%) of doing 2 wounds to the nob. If he doesn't kill the nob, then he's almost certainly dead, but he does have the chance. Before he never had that chance because you had to kill all the boyz before the nob could be hurt.

Nobz might not all get shelved, but I think it's almost a given that the powerfist sergeant is an endangered species now.

The chance of a single attack from a space marine causing a wound to a nob is .5 (to hit) x .5 (to wound) x .5 (4+ armor, mandatory now) = 12.5%. The chance of four attacks causing two or more wounds to the nob is 33%. Assuming that you are both charging (stupid idea against the best snap-fire army in the game) and equipped with two CCW.

I'm wondering if power mauls might not see some use on tactical sergeants now. It has the best performance against 4+ armor and can double out T3 models at initiative.

yeah i like challenges too, im going to be playing my DA as a "must accept any challenge and must always issue a challenge" kind of army, due to being Knights.

Also Nids do Accept challenges, i can think of 2 times where a Fex accepted one or if it helps... think of it as the Hive mind Targeting the V.I.P's of the enemy army

To anyone (just in general) who says that challenges are not fluff appropriate for the 40k universe... wait, what? I thought this was pretty much the MO of most badass leaders: walk up to the badass leader of the other army and beat the hell out of each other? Am I wrong? Really, its no less appropriate than Fantasy. If I never hear this complaint again, I will be a happy man.

Leth wrote:Yep, and when are you going to have dante running around by himself without at least a squad sergeant hanging out? Problem solved

Also on a side tangent, MSS got a big hit since you dont pile in until your initiative and need to be in BTB at the start. Just something to be aware of. Challenges however are exempt as they count as being in BTB

Really I think MSS is even better. I believe but don't know for sure, in challenges they can only hit the challengee. And without pile in it means you always get to choose the model impacted by mss the first round of combat by just b2b'ing the one guy. I think it makes them deadlier honestly because the pile on shlubs doesn't work first round.

How about this, I'm really tired of IC's in 5th that could just stroll up and waste all my guys before I even got to hit them. Now? Roll up with my lord commish, let strakken do the rest lol.

Jidmah wrote:

Arschbombe wrote:With the charge the sergeant will get 4 attacks and has a decent chance (25%) of doing 2 wounds to the nob. If he doesn't kill the nob, then he's almost certainly dead, but he does have the chance. Before he never had that chance because you had to kill all the boyz before the nob could be hurt.

Nobz might not all get shelved, but I think it's almost a given that the powerfist sergeant is an endangered species now.

The chance of a single attack from a space marine causing a wound to a nob is .5 (to hit) x .5 (to wound) x .5 (4+ armor, mandatory now) = 12.5%. The chance of four attacks causing two or more wounds to the nob is 33%. Assuming that you are both charging (stupid idea against the best snap-fire army in the game) and equipped with two CCW.

I think they're talking about Power Fists. If your Sergeant wasn't equipped with a Power Fist there'd be no point in challenging a Nob, who would 9 times out of 9 be equipped with a Power Klaw and threaten to rip the Sergeant to pieces once he hits I1.

If he has a Power Fist and you get challenged, your Nob now faces a thing that ignores armor saves, strikes at the same initiative, and threatens instant death on a model with no invulnerable saves. A PF Serg is a huge threat to a Nob.

the math goes like this: (.5)*(.83)*2 or .83 chance to instant death your Nob in one round of combat, regardless of whether you spend the 5 points on 'eavy Armor.

Edit, never mind, I didn't read the post you were responding to. He was talking about a Serg without a PF, which IMO it would simply be pointless to challenge a PK Nob without yourself having a Power Fist. If you had a Power Fist, the opportunity would be too great to pass up for the Tac squad not to challenge the Nob.

Hang on a mo...

I thought Dante was a bit of a beast in cc in 6th?

He seems to be a beast from some of the testing I've done.

Actually, I think who's going to be a monster in CC is any of those ICs in the BA dex that can nerf an IC (rerolls plus nerf or whatev). If you can nerf an IC and then challenge it, you're guaranteed a kill, in which case you win combat and roll them up.

As far as i know, only hive tyrants and tervigons are MC(character) in the tyranids book(from the reference summary in the back). So only they can do challenges

I'm a fantasy player, and there are certain tactics where challenges are concerned.

The best one, is to have your unit champion (nob) and your hero (ic - warboss) in the one unit. You charge, your oppenent challenges. You can then accept with the nob, freeing your warboss to go ape-crazy on his unit.

sverigesson wrote:To anyone (just in general) who says that challenges are not fluff appropriate for the 40k universe... wait, what? I thought this was pretty much the MO of most badass leaders: walk up to the badass leader of the other army and beat the hell out of each other? Am I wrong? Really, its no less appropriate than Fantasy. If I never hear this complaint again, I will be a happy man.

Well no, not all 40k armies are lead by the mentaly challenged in the fluff. While spacemarines might act like stereotypical medieval knights, Tyranids, IG commanders and quite a few others tend to use their brain at least once in a while. Besides that, even the Hivemind will probably know that exposing the important Hive Tyrant for the chance of removing your opponent's leadership is less smart then simply sending a few hundred Hormagants to do the job.

KingDeath wrote:

sverigesson wrote:To anyone (just in general) who says that challenges are not fluff appropriate for the 40k universe... wait, what? I thought this was pretty much the MO of most badass leaders: walk up to the badass leader of the other army and beat the hell out of each other? Am I wrong? Really, its no less appropriate than Fantasy. If I never hear this complaint again, I will be a happy man.

Well no, not all 40k armies are lead by the mentaly challenged in the fluff. While spacemarines might act like stereotypical medieval knights, Tyranids, IG commanders and quite a few others tend to use their brain at least once in a while. Besides that, even the Hivemind will probably know that exposing the important Hive Tyrant for the chance of removing your opponent's leadership is less smart then simply sending a few hundred Hormagants to do the job.

The titanic clash between hero and villain is a solid staple of 40K. Even lowly guard sergeants or mindless beasts get their screen time. I can't count the number of times I've read about a heroic Commissar battling some enemy character. Gaunt? Cain? Yarrick? Schaeffer? While I disagree with the assertion that characters just walk up the enemy leader and beat the hell out of each other, to say that a challenge as presented in the rules is not suitable for forces like the IG, Tyranids or others is to really devalue the narrative element of 40K.

Power Fists are pretty much relegated to "more anti-tank". If you want to accept challanges and win (BTW you don't HAVE to accept), take power weapons. Honestly, I can see fist sergeants declining, then whacking things the next round. Power Mauls are pretty good now too, even though they're AP4, they turn the guy into str 6! Lemartes is now Str 7 on the charge, pretty good for a space marine

Just dropping in to say that I absolutely love challenges. My Destroyer Lord in his unit of Wraiths defeated two squads and two HQs with ease.

MSS are downright gruesome. High chance to fail and if you do, the duel is over. Even if the enemy gets lucky and survives beating himself to a bloody pile of dead meat, he still faces the Destroyer Lord and is then torn apart in a blink of an eye. The only annoying thing are AP 2 melee weapons.

And the thing is: if the enemy refuses to take the challenge, he still faces an absolute beast that will likely kill 3 models.

And...and...Wraiths with PE! Oh dear gods. So much ass-kicking.

I usually run Primas Psykers as my hq. I don't know how I feel about challenges.

On one hand the PP is probably going to die horribly. On the other hand they have a force weapon. If they manage to get just one wound through and I pass the psychic test, I win!

It'll be fun to have him lightly nic a 6 wound MC and have it's head explode violently.

my DA captain is gonna rock a plasma pistol and bolt pistol and a Power broadsword (axe), rock up and blast away with both my pistols then charge and get beaten down lol

Since Dante's The Axe Mortalis has one or more extra rules so it cannot use the Power axe table stats. It falls under the Unusual Power Weapons rule that uses the profile AP 3 Melee as well as its additional rules. There is no such thing as a Power axe that is master-crafted in the rulebook. Lemartes and Kharn were individually FAQed to use different weapons profiles not so you could creatively decide to change other characters Unusual Power Weapons to your liking.

Radiation wrote:Since Dante's The Axe Mortalis has one or more extra rules so it cannot use the Power axe table stats. It falls under the Unusual Power Weapons rule that uses the profile AP 3 Melee as well as its additional rules. There is no such thing as a Power axe that is master-crafted in the rulebook. Lemartes and Kharn were individually FAQed to use different weapons profiles not so you could creatively decide to change other characters Unusual Power Weapons to your liking.

Hmmmm... In that case, Dante is a beast.

I'm not up to date with the new necron stuff, what is MSS and how does it work?

Kaldor wrote:I'm not up to date with the new necron stuff, what is MSS and how does it work?

MSS = Mind Shackle Scarabs. If in b2b with the model that carries MSS, the enemy model must take a LD test with 3(!)d6. If the model fails the test, it does not attack normally. Instead of its normal attacks, it attacks his unit or, if it's alone, itself with D3 attacks. Normal weapon modificators apply, the Necron player may decide which weapon is going to be used in case the model carries more than one. It's dirt cheap too.

Sigvatr wrote:

Kaldor wrote:I'm not up to date with the new necron stuff, what is MSS and how does it work?

MSS = Mind Shackle Scarabs. If in b2b with the model that carries MSS, the enemy model must take a LD test with 3(!)d6. If the model fails the test, it does not attack normally. Instead of its normal attacks, it attacks his unit or, if it's alone, itself with D3 attacks. Normal weapon modificators apply, the Necron player may decide which weapon is going to be used in case the model carries more than one. It's dirt cheap too.

Hmm, so how does that work with multiple pile-in moves at different initiative steps? I mean, for a challenge you're always considered to be in base-to-base so it doesn't matter, but what about regular combat? Does it have to be in base to base at the start of the combat, or only when it is that models turn to strike?

Radiation wrote:Since Dante's The Axe Mortalis has one or more extra rules so it cannot use the Power axe table stats. It falls under the Unusual Power Weapons rule that uses the profile AP 3 Melee as well as its additional rules. There is no such thing as a Power axe that is master-crafted in the rulebook. Lemartes and Kharn were individually FAQed to use different weapons profiles not so you could creatively decide to change other characters Unusual Power Weapons to your liking.

Dante's axe has no special rules. It is simply a power axe that is master-crafted (master-crafting is in the rulebook). Astaroth has a special weapon, it's a strength 6 power weapon, so strength 6, AP3, strikes at initiative, forces re-rolls of successful ward saves.

Kaldor wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:

Kaldor wrote:I'm not up to date with the new necron stuff, what is MSS and how does it work?

MSS = Mind Shackle Scarabs. If in b2b with the model that carries MSS, the enemy model must take a LD test with 3(!)d6. If the model fails the test, it does not attack normally. Instead of its normal attacks, it attacks his unit or, if it's alone, itself with D3 attacks. Normal weapon modificators apply, the Necron player may decide which weapon is going to be used in case the model carries more than one. It's dirt cheap too.

Hmm, so how does that work with multiple pile-in moves at different initiative steps? I mean, for a challenge you're always considered to be in base-to-base so it doesn't matter, but what about regular combat? Does it have to be in base to base at the start of the combat, or only when it is that models turn to strike?

When more than one model is in b2b with your character, you roll to decide which one is going to be affected by MSS. Effect comes to play at the start of the assault phase thus before pile-in moves.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

Radiation wrote:Since Dante's The Axe Mortalis has one or more extra rules so it cannot use the Power axe table stats. It falls under the Unusual Power Weapons rule that uses the profile AP 3 Melee as well as its additional rules. There is no such thing as a Power axe that is master-crafted in the rulebook. Lemartes and Kharn were individually FAQed to use different weapons profiles not so you could creatively decide to change other characters Unusual Power Weapons to your liking.

Dante's axe has no special rules. It is simply a power axe that is master-crafted (master-crafting is in the rulebook). Astaroth has a special weapon, it's a strength 6 power weapon, so strength 6, AP3, strikes at initiative, forces re-rolls of successful ward saves.

Show me where it says in the rulebook that "Power Weapons" "Types of Power Weapons" or "Power axe" have access to master-crafted.

This is what I see, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules..."

Since The Axe Mortalis is master crafted and master-crafted is described under "Special Rules" then The Axe Mortalis cannot fit under the "Types of Power Weapons" category that unlocks the stat table for "Power axe."

It instead falls in the "Unusual Power Weapons" category as AP 3 Melee.

I think everyone needs to stop for a moment and think about one other thing in this conversation....

PRESCISON SHOTS

So the more I think about these rules the more I'm starting to think Calgar is now a complete beat stick (I'd also love to use him agains a mss, because he auto passes leadership tests).

Radiation wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

Radiation wrote:Since Dante's The Axe Mortalis has one or more extra rules so it cannot use the Power axe table stats. It falls under the Unusual Power Weapons rule that uses the profile AP 3 Melee as well as its additional rules. There is no such thing as a Power axe that is master-crafted in the rulebook. Lemartes and Kharn were individually FAQed to use different weapons profiles not so you could creatively decide to change other characters Unusual Power Weapons to your liking.

Dante's axe has no special rules. It is simply a power axe that is master-crafted (master-crafting is in the rulebook). Astaroth has a special weapon, it's a strength 6 power weapon, so strength 6, AP3, strikes at initiative, forces re-rolls of successful ward saves.

Show me where it says in the rulebook that "Power Weapons" "Types of Power Weapons" or "Power axe" have access to master-crafted.

This is what I see, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules..."

Since The Axe Mortalis is master crafted and master-crafted is described under "Special Rules" then The Axe Mortalis cannot fit under the "Types of Power Weapons" category that unlocks the stat table for "Power axe."

It instead falls in the "Unusual Power Weapons" category as AP 3 Melee.

Power axe, page 61
Master-crafted, page 39

Unusual power weapons, page 61. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as a AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry. Note the word, "unique." Not "special." "Unique."

Anything unique about being a power axe? No.

Anything unique about being master-crafted? No.

Is the Axe Mortalis a unique weapon requiring unique rules like The (unique) Executioner's Axe? No.

Therefore the Axe Mortalis is a power axe, striking at initiative 1 with AP2 and a +1 strength bonus.

A power axe is a power axe is a power axe, and master-crafting does not give it its own unique close combat rules.