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azazel the cat wrote:

Kaldor wrote:This is important for challenges, because unless the challenger and challengee were in direct base contact immediately after assault moves, the MSS cannot effect the challenge. They'll still effect whoever the Necron model was in BtB with at the start of the assault phase, but if that wasn't the enemy involved in the challenge he won't have to worry about them.

I do not have an answer to your question about overkill; I would like to know myself. Similarly, I would like to kno what happens to a unit with regards to Sweeping Advance if they attack a lone IC who challenges and wins.

On a re-read of the rules, it seems you can only cause as many wounds as the character has on his profile. The Sweeping Advance seems pretty clear. If the unit runs, the IC can chase them down. Makes a lot of sense with something like a Dreadknight vs some Guardsmen, less so with other match-ups.

azazel the cat wrote:However, with respect to the MSS: the challenge rules say that the two combatants are considered to be in b2b with each other only. So MSS definitely does wreck face in a challenge.

Yeah, but they aren't in b2b until the challenge starts. I'd need to look at the exact wording of the MSS, but to me it seems to be this:

1 - Move assaulting units.
2 - Determine who is affected by MSS
3 - Determine who, if anyone, is fighting a challenge.
4 - Move challenger or challengee as required.

I don't think you would get to wait and see if you're going to be in a challenge before choosing who to use the MSS on. It's just whoever you end up being in B2B with after assault moves are made.

Kaldor wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

Kaldor wrote:This is important for challenges, because unless the challenger and challengee were in direct base contact immediately after assault moves, the MSS cannot effect the challenge. They'll still effect whoever the Necron model was in BtB with at the start of the assault phase, but if that wasn't the enemy involved in the challenge he won't have to worry about them.

I do not have an answer to your question about overkill; I would like to know myself. Similarly, I would like to kno what happens to a unit with regards to Sweeping Advance if they attack a lone IC who challenges and wins.

On a re-read of the rules, it seems you can only cause as many wounds as the character has on his profile. The Sweeping Advance seems pretty clear. If the unit runs, the IC can chase them down. Makes a lot of sense with something like a Dreadknight vs some Guardsmen, less so with other match-ups.

^^ This. The book states that for assault results, you only ever cause as many unsaved wounds as there are available. (including ALL wounds lost by ID). So there is no "overkill" like there is in fantasy. For gameplay, I like this, it keeps it simple. For fluffy-in-my-head-cinematic reasons, I don't, because I feel there should be some sort of morale penalty for seeing your Captain/Sarge/Chaptermaster utterly disembowled and dismembered by that hive tyrant. Oh well.


*edit* I fething love challenges. I like them from a fluff point, and from a gameplay point. To me, that is the epitome of a "cinematic" CC fight: My Warboss bellowing out a challenge, then shoving the nob in the way, so he can kill some beakies. Then, after he's had his fill of that, he goes and kills that pesky seargant.

Man, if what everyone is saying about Mind Shackle Scarabs is true, then we have the ultimate 1 on 1 combatants in the universe right here.

Overlord with Weave and MSS.

Good by Draigo, Calgar, Abaddon, Ghazzy...you just got beat by a dirt cheap non-named IC.

Is it possible for mob rule to help out Ork characters? Will they get to take this test at LD 10 if there are at least ten boyz in the unit? Will we get to use our Boyz rerolls on the MSS roll?

Sigmundr wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

Kaldor wrote:This is important for challenges, because unless the challenger and challengee were in direct base contact immediately after assault moves, the MSS cannot effect the challenge. They'll still effect whoever the Necron model was in BtB with at the start of the assault phase, but if that wasn't the enemy involved in the challenge he won't have to worry about them.

I do not have an answer to your question about overkill; I would like to know myself. Similarly, I would like to kno what happens to a unit with regards to Sweeping Advance if they attack a lone IC who challenges and wins.

On a re-read of the rules, it seems you can only cause as many wounds as the character has on his profile. The Sweeping Advance seems pretty clear. If the unit runs, the IC can chase them down. Makes a lot of sense with something like a Dreadknight vs some Guardsmen, less so with other match-ups.

^^ This. The book states that for assault results, you only ever cause as many unsaved wounds as there are available. (including ALL wounds lost by ID). So there is no "overkill" like there is in fantasy. For gameplay, I like this, it keeps it simple. For fluffy-in-my-head-cinematic reasons, I don't, because I feel there should be some sort of morale penalty for seeing your Captain/Sarge/Chaptermaster utterly disembowled and dismembered by that hive tyrant. Oh well.


*edit* I fething love challenges. I like them from a fluff point, and from a gameplay point. To me, that is the epitome of a "cinematic" CC fight: My Warboss bellowing out a challenge, then shoving the nob in the way, so he can kill some beakies. Then, after he's had his fill of that, he goes and kills that pesky seargant.

I had fun already with the challenges, my Epistolary munched up an Eldar HQ and my friend's CSM warlord, and it's pretty fun stuff, and you're right, it enhances the fluff of any given battle, although Andilus and I will not likely pit our respective warlords in a challenge unless I give Atlas a force axe, but I honestly think I'll just opt for something else.

gpfunk wrote:Man, if what everyone is saying about Mind Shackle Scarabs is true, then we have the ultimate 1 on 1 combatants in the universe right here.

Overlord with Weave and MSS.

Good by Draigo, Calgar, Abaddon, Ghazzy...you just got beat by a dirt cheap non-named IC.

Is it possible for mob rule to help out Ork characters? Will they get to take this test at LD 10 if there are at least ten boyz in the unit? Will we get to use our Boyz rerolls on the MSS roll?

For orks, the answer is yes. Mob rule specifically states that they use the number of models with mob rule in the squad as their LD, with 11 or more also making them fearless. I'm fairly sure the bosspole allows a reroll of a failed LD test, not a failed morale check. if so, and MSS specifically states LD test or bad things happen, then we should get the reroll =)

Sigmundr wrote:

gpfunk wrote:Man, if what everyone is saying about Mind Shackle Scarabs is true, then we have the ultimate 1 on 1 combatants in the universe right here.

Overlord with Weave and MSS.

Good by Draigo, Calgar, Abaddon, Ghazzy...you just got beat by a dirt cheap non-named IC.

Is it possible for mob rule to help out Ork characters? Will they get to take this test at LD 10 if there are at least ten boyz in the unit? Will we get to use our Boyz rerolls on the MSS roll?

For orks, the answer is yes. Mob rule specifically states that they use the number of models with mob rule in the squad as their LD, with 11 or more also making them fearless. I'm fairly sure the bosspole allows a reroll of a failed LD test, not a failed morale check. if so, and MSS specifically states LD test or bad things happen, then we should get the reroll =)

Then all is not lost. I suppose the best thing about this is that I can finally bring a warboss and not feel bad about it. Thinking about the kit for a challenge ready warboss makes me salivate a bit...

Warboss w/Mega Armor (PK/TL Shoota)
Cybork Body
Boss Pole
Attack Squig

or

Warboss on Warbike
PK
Cybork
Boss Pole
Attack Squig

I usually bring a warboss for three reasons:

1.) I kit him out like the first one (and use my thraka model)
2.) I get to take my Nob bikers as troops
3.) I only own one bigmek

*edit* A Biker boss in a nob squad just made an already awesome deathstar even more so. Wound Allocation shenanigans on a 4+ for the nobs, 2+ for the boss, plus challenge and challenge redirects all day long.

Calgar gets to auto pass leadership tests with his special rule he will punch the overload in the face.

gpfunk wrote:Man, if what everyone is saying about Mind Shackle Scarabs is true, then we have the ultimate 1 on 1 combatants in the universe right here.

Overlord with Weave and MSS.

Good by Draigo, Calgar, Abaddon, Ghazzy...you just got beat by a dirt cheap non-named IC.

Is it possible for mob rule to help out Ork characters? Will they get to take this test at LD 10 if there are at least ten boyz in the unit? Will we get to use our Boyz rerolls on the MSS roll?

Calgar automatically passes, so...

I like how the Ork Warboss's solution to not hit someone via control of MSS is to........ hit someone with a bosspole.

Kaldor wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:However, with respect to the MSS: the challenge rules say that the two combatants are considered to be in b2b with each other only. So MSS definitely does wreck face in a challenge.

Yeah, but they aren't in b2b until the challenge starts. I'd need to look at the exact wording of the MSS, but to me it seems to be this:

1 - Move assaulting units.
2 - Determine who is affected by MSS
3 - Determine who, if anyone, is fighting a challenge.
4 - Move challenger or challengee as required.

I don't think you would get to wait and see if you're going to be in a challenge before choosing who to use the MSS on. It's just whoever you end up being in B2B with after assault moves are made.

Rule starts as follows:

"At the start of the assault phase, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck, randomly select..."

The challenge declaration is part of the assault moves, and performed at the same time as the pile-in, and therefore the MSS do work during a challenge.


Also, I know that this is tenuous logic at best, but: Mat Ward invented them, and he usually does create strong codices, so the power level of MSS does fit the pattern. (now I feel cheap)

mind scarabs are one thing. But I would very much like to challenge that powerfist sarge with my broadside Team Leader. Seems to me I've got a pretty good chance of punching him in the face before he gets to wreck my squad.

azazel the cat wrote: "At the start of the assault phase, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck, randomly select..."

The challenge declaration is part of the assault moves, and performed at the same time as the pile-in, and therefore the MSS do work during a challenge

Yeah, I'm not sold on that. I don't think the challenge declaration is part of the assault moves, and I think the pile-in would happen after MSS.

But it's not clear cut, definitely needs an FAQ to clear it up, and I'll be 4+ing it any time it comes up in my games.

Kaldor wrote:

azazel the cat wrote: "At the start of the assault phase, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck, randomly select..."

The challenge declaration is part of the assault moves, and performed at the same time as the pile-in, and therefore the MSS do work during a challenge

Yeah, I'm not sold on that. I don't think the challenge declaration is part of the assault moves, and I think the pile-in would happen after MSS.

But it's not clear cut, definitely needs an FAQ to clear it up, and I'll be 4+ing it any time it comes up in my games.

Then why not even go one step further and declare the charge to be part of the assault moves, and thus claim that MSS only work on models that were in b2b prior to the actual assault, even?

The rule itself clearly states that the MSS take effect after all moves have been made, but prior to anyone swinging their swords. That means it works in challenges as well, since challenges occur simultaneously with the rest of combat.

Kinda like when two principle characters square off in films, surrounded by the thick of battle.

EDIT: You don't get to just hold your breath and just say "Nope! roll-off!". You have to put forward a contending argument against this one, and considering that the wording in MSS can only be made more clear with the explicit instructions of "Yes, you can do this in a challenge, us, the game designers, are talking to you, Kaldor!", then I think you'll be hard-pressed to properly earn the right to a roll-off on this matter other than pure obstinance.

azazel the cat wrote:You don't get to just hold your breath and just say "Nope! roll-off!". You have to put forward a contending argument against this one

*sigh*

The wording is decidedly unclear. It was obviously written in another edition.

It says "after assault moves have been made" but makes no mention of further moves in combat. This, to me, states that after the assault moves have been made, you randomly determine who it affects. Having decided who it affects, we then move other models, including normal pile-in moves and moving challenger/challengee models as needed.

I don't see anything to say you can make your assault move, pile in move, 'challenge' move, and THEN decide who it affects. It only says 'assault move'.

Titan Atlas wrote:I had fun already with the challenges, my Epistolary munched up an Eldar HQ and my friend's CSM warlord, and it's pretty fun stuff, and you're right, it enhances the fluff of any given battle, although Andilus and I will not likely pit our respective warlords in a challenge unless I give Atlas a force axe, but I honestly think I'll just opt for something else.

Haha, I've kitted out my Lord to be able to take on 3rd Edition C'tan, but it'd be a fun fight vs Termie Atlas.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:I had fun already with the challenges, my Epistolary munched up an Eldar HQ and my friend's CSM warlord, and it's pretty fun stuff, and you're right, it enhances the fluff of any given battle, although Andilus and I will not likely pit our respective warlords in a challenge unless I give Atlas a force axe, but I honestly think I'll just opt for something else.

Haha, I've kitted out my Lord to be able to take on 3rd Edition C'tan, but it'd be a fun fight vs Termie Atlas.

well, I'd need to figure out what to do as your lord has the inherent advantage when he has terminator armour...although if I could manage to get iron arm off and we both fought with swords it could just be a battle of who gets worse saving throw rolls XD

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Dante is better off with a Power Axe over a Sword. I1 is no big deal in 6th ed.

I'm a bit of a newb, but why is Initiative 1 no big deal in 6th edition? The way I've been thinking about it, whichever character goes first in a challenge is probably going to win, aren't they? Especially with all the Necron shenanigans going on now.

atomsmasher wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Dante is better off with a Power Axe over a Sword. I1 is no big deal in 6th ed.

I'm a bit of a newb, but why is Initiative 1 no big deal in 6th edition? The way I've been thinking about it, whichever character goes first in a challenge is probably going to win, aren't they? Especially with all the Necron shenanigans going on now.

It's not so much who gets the first swing in, but who gets the last swing in. So sure, if you can kill someone at your initiative, that's all well and good, but even a relic blade (which while str6, is ap3) is going to have trouble dealing 3 wounds to another captain. Conversely, if that captain had a thunderhammer, he just needs to land one good hit with it.

Kaldor wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:You don't get to just hold your breath and just say "Nope! roll-off!". You have to put forward a contending argument against this one

*sigh*

The wording is decidedly unclear. It was obviously written in another edition.

It says "after assault moves have been made" but makes no mention of further moves in combat. This, to me, states that after the assault moves have been made, you randomly determine who it affects. Having decided who it affects, we then move other models, including normal pile-in moves and moving challenger/challengee models as needed.

I don't see anything to say you can make your assault move, pile in move, 'challenge' move, and THEN decide who it affects. It only says 'assault move'.

Actually I think this pretty clearly favors Kaldor (though this is starting to delve into you make the call territory)
it says "after assault moves have been made" this translates into charge moves in 6th edition. Challenges in 6th are actually made in the Fight Sub-Phase, which is an entirely different phase of combat than charge moves.

step 1, charge moves
step 2, MSS, since it is immediately after the assault or "charge move"
step 3, fight subphase.
step 4, challenges.

Voodoo wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:You don't get to just hold your breath and just say "Nope! roll-off!". You have to put forward a contending argument against this one

*sigh*

The wording is decidedly unclear. It was obviously written in another edition.

It says "after assault moves have been made" but makes no mention of further moves in combat. This, to me, states that after the assault moves have been made, you randomly determine who it affects. Having decided who it affects, we then move other models, including normal pile-in moves and moving challenger/challengee models as needed.

I don't see anything to say you can make your assault move, pile in move, 'challenge' move, and THEN decide who it affects. It only says 'assault move'.

Actually I think this pretty clearly favors Kaldor (though this is starting to delve into you make the call territory)
it says "after assault moves have been made" this translates into charge moves in 6th edition. Challenges in 6th are actually made in the Fight Sub-Phase, which is an entirely different phase of combat than charge moves.

step 1, charge moves
step 2, MSS, since it is immediately after the assault or "charge move"
step 3, fight subphase.
step 4, challenges.

For what it's worth I agree with you and Kaldor -- but I think an FAQ is what's needed.

even if MSS randomly effect different bases, they are still kings of challenges right now. For only 20 points they are stupidly powerful and an autotake.

Kaldor wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:You don't get to just hold your breath and just say "Nope! roll-off!". You have to put forward a contending argument against this one

*sigh*

The wording is decidedly unclear. It was obviously written in another edition.

It says "after assault moves have been made" but makes no mention of further moves in combat. This, to me, states that after the assault moves have been made, you randomly determine who it affects. Having decided who it affects, we then move other models, including normal pile-in moves and moving challenger/challengee models as needed.

I don't see anything to say you can make your assault move, pile in move, 'challenge' move, and THEN decide who it affects. It only says 'assault move'.

All of those things are assault moves. They are moves made during the assault phase. The key is to note that the rule states [i"]...but before any blows are struck...[/i]", implying that MSS is the last thing to occur prior to everyone swinging their swords.

EDIT: I think we should agree to disagree (unless you feel like conceding) so that we don't force this thread to be moved to YMDC.

azazel the cat wrote:EDIT: I think we should agree to disagree (unless you feel like conceding) so that we don't force this thread to be moved to YMDC.

If you want to start a thread in YMDC I'd interested to see what the rest of Dakka thinks.

I think both sides make valid points, and I don't think either side has a totally convincing argument. Which is why it'll be a 4+ at my table. I think that's fair in this instance, and not simply being obstinate.

azazel the cat wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:You don't get to just hold your breath and just say "Nope! roll-off!". You have to put forward a contending argument against this one

*sigh*

The wording is decidedly unclear. It was obviously written in another edition.

It says "after assault moves have been made" but makes no mention of further moves in combat. This, to me, states that after the assault moves have been made, you randomly determine who it affects. Having decided who it affects, we then move other models, including normal pile-in moves and moving challenger/challengee models as needed.

I don't see anything to say you can make your assault move, pile in move, 'challenge' move, and THEN decide who it affects. It only says 'assault move'.

All of those things are assault moves. They are moves made during the assault phase. The key is to note that the rule states [i"]...but before any blows are struck...[/i]", implying that MSS is the last thing to occur prior to everyone swinging their swords.

EDIT: I think we should agree to disagree (unless you feel like conceding) so that we don't force this thread to be moved to YMDC.

YMDC IMO

Radiation wrote:Page 61

"Types of Power Weapons"

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules..."

Page 39

Heading "Special Rules"

"Master-crafted"

It can't use the table to unlock the Power axe stats.

Then you have a problem. Only if the weapon does not have any special rules do you look at the weapon itself to determine the type. On the other hand, it is only if the weapon has "its own unique close combat rules" that you treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with those additional rules.

There's no such thing as a generic AP3 power weapon: It's either a sword, an axe, a maul or a lance, or it must have its own unique rules. Those are the options given in the rulebook on page 61.

n0t_u wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Well, that's confusing as hell for challenges. if MSS takes effect at the start of the assault phase, but a challenge is issued at the start of the fight sub-phase, when does MSS actually take effect? Before or after the challenger/challengee are moved?

Depends. Sometimes MSS will probably go first and sometimes it'll go at the same time. Really needs to be clarified.

This is really bizzare, did they nerf Mind Shackle Scarabs (MSS)?

The Necron FAQ for MSS says at the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase. It's just the first thing you do, period.

BRB says you do many things in this sub-phase, the first being to pick a combat... then declare a challenge... then start at init step 10 and work down... etc, etc... (see summary on page 429 for reference and order... as well, page 20 and 22 for details)... Even page 64, issuing challenge, qualify's the challenge issuing as beginning of fight sub-phase, before blows are struck...

So... unless FAQ'd further, is the order of operation

FIGHT Sub-phase
MSS goes off in all combats, determine which model if any in base to base and resolve
Pick Combat
Issue Challenge
Init steps....

If this is correct, then MSS just got a nerf and would only work in a challenge on round's 2+ after a challenge round was fought and only if all parties live...

Thoughts...

Cheers,

Well, you can still refuse the challenge

Tactica wrote:This is really bizzare, did they nerf Mind Shackle Scarabs (MSS)?

The Necron FAQ for MSS says at the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase. It's just the first thing you do, period.

BRB says you do many things in this sub-phase, the first being to pick a combat... then declare a challenge... then start at init step 10 and work down... etc, etc... (see summary on page 429 for reference and order... as well, page 20 and 22 for details)... Even page 64, issuing challenge, qualify's the challenge issuing as beginning of fight sub-phase, before blows are struck...

So... unless FAQ'd further, is the order of operation

FIGHT Sub-phase
MSS goes off in all combats, determine which model if any in base to base and resolve
Pick Combat
Issue Challenge
Init steps....

If this is correct, then MSS just got a nerf and would only work in a challenge on round's 2+ after a challenge round was fought and only if all parties live...

Thoughts...

Cheers,

I believe page 9 of the rule book clears this up. If two events happen at the same, who ever turn it is gets to decide when it happens.

Sigmundr wrote:I'm fairly sure the bosspole allows a reroll of a failed LD test, not a failed morale check. if so, and MSS specifically states LD test or bad things happen, then we should get the reroll =)

You're going to want to reread the bosspole. It only allows re-rolls on morale tests...not any Ld check.