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@ Necrosis,

If they happened at the same time, I'd agree with you... pg 9, exceptions dictates. Whoevers player turn it is resolves the order.

However, do they happen at the same time?


BRB: Fight Sub-phase has steps. First, pick a combat.... Next, dertimine challenges, Third, go to Init steps... etc.... so, the BRB seems to indicate in multiple locations (see prev post) that there are steps to the Fight Sub-phase and outlines them in detail in pg 20 and pg 429...

Necron FAQ: seems to state MSS happens at the start of the Sub-phase, period.

So, wouldn't the MSS always go before anything else... at the beginning... before you ever pick a combat or resolve challenges?

Am I missing something?

Cheers,

I'm going to be using an Ethereal in challenges. Go on, kill him. I dare you.

A Town Called Malus wrote:I'm going to be using an Ethereal in challenges. Go on, kill him. I dare you.

lol
All I see is bunch of Fire Warriors prodding Etheral with a sharp stick towards charging Khorne Daemon.

Tactica wrote:@ Necrosis,

If they happened at the same time, I'd agree with you... pg 9, exceptions dictates. Whoevers player turn it is resolves the order.

However, do they happen at the same time?


BRB: Fight Sub-phase has steps. First, pick a combat.... Next, dertimine challenges, Third, go to Init steps... etc.... so, the BRB seems to indicate in multiple locations (see prev post) that there are steps to the Fight Sub-phase and outlines them in detail in pg 20 and pg 429...

Necron FAQ: seems to state MSS happens at the start of the Sub-phase, period.

So, wouldn't the MSS always go before anything else... at the beginning... before you ever pick a combat or resolve challenges?

Am I missing something?

Cheers,

Actually a challenge occurs at the beginning of the fight-subphase... same as the wording for MSS, so they are simultaneous.

Macok wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:I'm going to be using an Ethereal in challenges. Go on, kill him. I dare you.

lol
All I see is bunch of Fire Warriors prodding Ethereal with a sharp stick towards charging Khorne Daemon.

Better that Ethereal die and get us Preferred Enemy than our entire unit of Fire Warriors get wiped out.

If we Tau get Aun'shi back in our next Codex then we might actually have a second character who can win in a challenge (the first being Farsight).

He was WS5, S3, T3, W3, I5, A4, Ld10 with a 4+ invulnerable save.

He could use his attacks to lower the number of enemy attacks (so if he gave up two attacks, the enemy lost two attacks) to a minimum of 1.
His Honour Blade gave him +2 strength (so makes him S5) and always wounded an enemy if he rolled a 6 to hit, with no armour save allowed.

Good times...

I can totally see Tau doing everything to get rid of their blue-faced leaders as fast as possible

Gangrel767 wrote:Actually a challenge occurs at the beginning of the fight-subphase... same as the wording for MSS, so they are simultaneous.

Interesting... the challenge language is not that cut and dry. It says it happens at the beginning, before blows are struck... and you can only have a challenge after you have selected a combat... and page 429 seems to clarify when challenges occur beyond any question. MSS on the other hand, must occur at the start... in theory, before you even pick a combat.

I encourage you to look at pg 20. Furthermore, you may wish to look at pg. 429.

If there is an order to the Fight Sub-phase... (there appears to be)...
1. Choose a Combat
2. Declare a challenge
3. Init 10 pile in of models
4. etc... etc

The language used for picking a challenge has a different qualifier for when it occurs, it has to happen before blows are struck... and furthermore, on page 429, we are given an exact time for it to occur.

Thus, one does wonder, is the MSS entry in the FAQ an oops, or did they mean to nerf it somewhat so that it was only useful in a challenge for turn 2+?

Anyway, just my read...

Cheers,

Crazyterran wrote:

gpfunk wrote:Man, if what everyone is saying about Mind Shackle Scarabs is true, then we have the ultimate 1 on 1 combatants in the universe right here.

Overlord with Weave and MSS.

Good by Draigo, Calgar, Abaddon, Ghazzy...you just got beat by a dirt cheap non-named IC.

Is it possible for mob rule to help out Ork characters? Will they get to take this test at LD 10 if there are at least ten boyz in the unit? Will we get to use our Boyz rerolls on the MSS roll?

Calgar automatically passes, so...

Calgar automatically passes Morale tests, not leadership tests. So he can be hit by the scarabs. And he can be pinned, as pinning is a Leadership check, not a Morale check.

Tactica wrote:

Thus, one does wonder, is the MSS entry in the FAQ an oops, or did they mean to nerf it somewhat so that it was only useful in a challenge for turn 2+?

Anyway, just my read...

Cheers,

Well actually if your turn and you've been stuck in a challenge, you can declare the effects of MSS first and then use glorious intervention so you can still fight like normal.

Sigvatr wrote:I can totally see Tau doing everything to get rid of their blue-faced leaders as fast as possible

Was joking about this at the local GW on Tuesday. Every Tau army will be led by an Ethereal who will deploy in the highest piece of terrain available and start his first turn by hurling himself off of it. As long as it is high enough, he'll Instant Death from the fall, and he gets no armor save for jumping down. BAM! Instant Preferred Enemy for the whole army. If you make all your morale tests....

I'd do the very same if I was a Tau player. Preferred Enemy is incredibly good now as it also works with shooting and for a shooty army like the Tau...yes please

Rawrgyle wrote:I think everyone needs to stop for a moment and think about one other thing in this conversation....

PRESCISON SHOTS

Or more than this, precision strikes. Precision strikes are going to kill your nobz way faster than challenges ever will. Challenges are A problem, but not the WORST problem.

Really, all that the challenge system does is further reinforce what the rest of the rules system has already caused - units that were okay to good in close combat just became terrible, and units that were good to very good in close combat just became friggin fantastic. Before, there was a smooth gradient of close combat quality across the codices. 6th has split them into men and boys. You will either beat face, or don't bother at all. Challenges are just another way to help reinforce this general trend.

Plus, like other things in 6th, this rule seems to be designed to move the game away from competitive and towards fun.

ShadarLogoth wrote:Hidden PFists have been way to strong for way too long. They are the very reason for the Eternal Warrior balancing act we've been dealing with since 4th.

Sure, the old system was unwieldy, but this could have been fixed in a lot of ways (including changing eternal warrior).

As it is, though, they went way, way too far. In a world where your initiative matters, there is no reason to every put a power fist on a W1 model. For however silly it was for a space marine sergeant to be able to take down Dante, we're now in a world wherein an imperial guard sergeant can now pistol whip a space marine sergeant with a power fist to death before he even gets a chance to get a swing in. That's no less ridiculous.

It feels like their current system takes things way, way too far in the otherwise right direction.

Chrysis wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

gpfunk wrote:Man, if what everyone is saying about Mind Shackle Scarabs is true, then we have the ultimate 1 on 1 combatants in the universe right here.

Overlord with Weave and MSS.

Good by Draigo, Calgar, Abaddon, Ghazzy...you just got beat by a dirt cheap non-named IC.

Is it possible for mob rule to help out Ork characters? Will they get to take this test at LD 10 if there are at least ten boyz in the unit? Will we get to use our Boyz rerolls on the MSS roll?

Calgar automatically passes, so...

Calgar automatically passes Morale tests, not leadership tests. So he can be hit by the scarabs. And he can be pinned, as pinning is a Leadership check, not a Morale check.

So, he still has a 50/50 chance of turning your Mind Shackle Scarab guy into a pile of scrap metal, since he's LD10.

And, if the Space Marine player's brain isn't made of mush, he'll make sure he has other marines in base contact to make you randomize it.

Sure, you could technically have Calgar hit himself. If the marine player is smart, he'll shoot any overlords off the board as a matter of principle, since most come in CCBs at the moment.

But hey, this game is all about dice. I had my 26~ pt Sergeant kill a 200+ pt Nurgle Sorcerer Bike Lord in one round of a challenge. Not supposed to happen, but...

EDIT:

I also change my answer to anyone who takes a challenge on Marneus Calgar or Abaddon is asking to get creamed by something stupid like MSS. I'd take the challenge on the Thunder Hammer Sergeant accompanying him. Really. Have Marneus Calgar turn the unit into paste while the SGT eats his own Thunder Hammer. Or not, since he still has a 7/16 chance of passing it on his LD9.

Example #1: Mordrak is a WS 6, W 4 200 Point HQ with a Master crafted 4 swings base Daemon Hammer and an Iron Halo, by a 30 point Power Fist Captian in a basic SM Tac squad, can issue a challenge. We both swing at Int 1, Mordrak prolly hits 3-4 times, and kills on all 3-4 dice rolls. The Tac capt make 1 hit and causes 1 wound, which lets say i fail. Str 8 against T4 and not Eternal Warrior. POOF.... really....REALLY....

Example #2: Give a Purifier Knight of the Flame a Warding Staff. 2++ save in CC, and have him challenge a Str 8 T 8 W6 Tyranid HQ choice(Assuming they got a 1 roll with Biomancy Psyc stuff) that is like 230 points. Ok so you hit me 5 times, ok the odds are actually pretty decent that I live with a 2++ save.. lets just stand here and compare the fact that I am a 36 point model and you are 230. Oh and btw I can Hammerhand with my squad and actually hit you with an AP3 Power Weapon, so as long as I can make 2++ saves, I can actually win...

I have had both of these things happen, Example 2, the Knight lasted the top/bottom of assault phase 2 1/2 times...while the rest of the unit just stood there hanging out...

So far for Nids challenges have been generally a good thing.
We have Tervigons who can do a Smash with crushing claws and do S10 2+D3A AP2 and if you add in toxin (and we always take Toxin) re-roll all failed to wounds. And that in not on the charge or with any Biomancy.

We have the LW/BS Prime with ScyTal. You go at I1, I ignore armor, strike at I5, reroll 1's and can ID. And I can take Toxin on him as well. In a deathstar he can take the chalanges from the 1 wound wonder so our big guns can wreck face.

And we have the biggest of the bad. Swarmlord. Ignores armour, 4+ Inuln, makes you re-roll Invuls and IDs anything without EW at I6 and WS9. And that's before you buff him with Biomancy and make him really scary.

As for MSS, I just make sure I line up my charges well before hand so I am not engaged with the guy who has them. If he is not in BtB or withing 2" of someone in BtB he is not engaged and can not declare challenges.

As for Dante, people around here are cutting off the Ax and replacing it with a sword if they don't want it to strike last. So it is either a UPW and shape doesn't matter or it is WYSIWYG, so they are good either way.

Gloomfang wrote:As for Dante, people around here are cutting off the Ax and replacing it with a sword if they don't want it to strike last. So it is either a UPW and shape doesn't matter or it is WYSIWYG, so they are good either way.

imho, that's modelling for advantage...

Had my 2nd game last night and we had lots of challenges during it. They were intense and a lot of fun! I love the new mechanic.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:imho, that's modelling for advantage...

Had my 2nd game last night and we had lots of challenges during it. They were intense and a lot of fun! I love the new mechanic.

Not really. Most people around here run some sort of Successor chapter (Honestly its so they can use either BA, SW or C:SM as thier army.) So while they are using Dante's rules, it is not actully Dante.

And even if it is Dante the rules state to give the models the power weapon you want them to have. So I wouldn't equate it with MFA any more than I would having to rebase a model becasue the base size just got changed or was not perviously stated. Happened to a lot of Tervigons when the model came out and people had them on Carnifax bases (and they were WAY to short).

Challenges....My Wolf Lord ran into a Necron lord last game with Mind Shackle Scarrabs. He challenges, I have to accept or the Wolf Lord just runs and hides. Wolf lord fails his Leadership test on 3d6 and beats himself with his thunderhammer while the necron lord strikes him down with a war sythe. Not even Saga Of the Bear and a SS could save him in this challenge. I guess necron in CC are like fighting yourself now.

Yup, MSS are even better than they were in 5e.
Moral of the story is: Never charge Necron Lords with solo Characters or let them charge you.
Now, if you have your squad with you, you actually have some options:
1) If it's your turn, make sure no-one important is in b2b with the lord. Decide that MSS is resolved before challenges. Now, you can challenge that Lord and possibly kill him (though not likely, with Lord most likely being 2+/3++ and T5 and with him having the best non-unique CC weapon in game)

2) If it is the Necron players turn, he will most likely decide to first do Challenge and MSS after that. Your only options is to make sure your unit has a cheap character (sergeant) and feed him to the Lord.

Had my first 6th ed game yesterday (finally!). Decided to try out the Challenge rules with a Lord vs some Eldar guy with a funny hat. He had rerollable invul saves and kept using his witch blade, meaning I got to use my 2+ save. I charged in turn 2. He finally killed himself with MSS on the bottom of turn 5.
It was like a Metapod vs Metapod fight.
Moral of the story: avoid challenges between guys with good saves. Without weight of attacks, you're going to be there a long, long time.

Tesseract Labyrinth

Thanks for the advice Luide. Squad charge it is then.

I've been really reading the rules for close combat assaults and for how MSS would resolve in an assault and this is what I've come to see.

References are BRB: page 9, 20, 64 and Necron faq 6th ed

Charge sub phase begins
1. declare charges
2. assaulter rolls charge range
3. move all charging models into charge range (no enemy models being charged move)
Charge sub phase ends

Fight sub phase begins
1. choose a combat
2. Issue challenge and/or use MSS this happens simultaneously so controlling player chooses order it happens.
3. both players pile in any models at Initiative 10 and make all attacks with initiative 10 profiles.
4. repeat last step until you go from 10 to 1.
5. resolve combat

So generally it would seem that a necron player will often choose to make the challenge first if he initiates the assault in this instance and the opponent will often want the MSS to resolve after challenges are given if he's the assaulting general.

Well that is not good news for my wolf lord. thanks HOLLOWMIRROR for the great description and page numbers.

My biggest complaint is time. Additional time dealing with CC makes everything not so fun. Challenges are okay but it is an added micro action in CC.

the rule set to me works fine time wise in lower point games.

Becomes unwieldy at the higher point games.

It's the 41st Millennia. What are you doing still hitting people with pointy sticks.

Just shoot them in the head.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:It's the 41st Millennia. What are you doing still hitting people with pointy sticks.

Just shoot them in the head.

Pref with a Manticore Squadron.

It does seem like the most effective way to deal with this is to try and engineer a situation that means MSS is always wasted on something you don't mind losing either by keeping your IC away (they can change squads and move to somewhere more useful but few people do this) or tarpit with an expendable squad that can eat the challenge with a Sergeant or has no reason not to turn the challenge down and hope that you can keep them stuck in the open post combat for some shooting.

This is a scenario where if your opponent is depending on it as a tactic then you should be trying to deny them the opportunity to use it rather than figuring out a way to deal with it once it happens.

I don't have the Necron book and don't play against them so I don't know if there is a lot of Fearless going around (I'm assuming there is just based on fluff) but if it's an option pinning weapons have the potential to stop a unit in it's tracks and all Barrage weapons pin. It's a long shot but it has the potential to stop an impending charge.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:It's the 41st Millennia. What are you doing still hitting people with pointy sticks.

Just shoot them in the head.

Because its the only way to be sure.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:It's the 41st Millennia. What are you doing still hitting people with pointy sticks.

Just shoot them in the head.

If the defensive technology has advanced to a point that it defeats the readily available weapons (i.e. Power Armour vs. Autoguns, Lasguns, Bolters and even Autocannons) it actually makes sense for the guy wearing it to get into close combat and finish his foes off with specialised weapon that DOES defeat the defensive technology (Power Weapons, Plasma Pistols, Meltaguns, other short-to-melee-range weapons).

Gloomfang wrote:So far for Nids challenges have been generally a good thing.
We have Tervigons who can do a Smash with crushing claws and do S10 2+D3A AP2 and if you add in toxin (and we always take Toxin) re-roll all failed to wounds. And that in not on the charge or with any Biomancy.

We have the LW/BS Prime with ScyTal. You go at I1, I ignore armor, strike at I5, reroll 1's and can ID. And I can take Toxin on him as well. In a deathstar he can take the chalanges from the 1 wound wonder so our big guns can wreck face.

And we have the biggest of the bad. Swarmlord. Ignores armour, 4+ Inuln, makes you re-roll Invuls and IDs anything without EW at I6 and WS9. And that's before you buff him with Biomancy and make him really scary.

As for MSS, I just make sure I line up my charges well before hand so I am not engaged with the guy who has them. If he is not in BtB or withing 2" of someone in BtB he is not engaged and can not declare challenges.

As for Dante, people around here are cutting off the Ax and replacing it with a sword if they don't want it to strike last. So it is either a UPW and shape doesn't matter or it is WYSIWYG, so they are good either way.

I agree with you man and who ever says that Tyranids dont challenge is stupied when the Nids attacked a planit the Swarmlord arrived and the leader of the Space Marins fought the Swarmlord in a one on one duel. The Hive Mind lets the Swarmlord do what he wants in battle cuz he is the best Nid in the Hive Fleets and the smartest next to the Hive Mind