Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi DakkaDakka,


I wanted to openly discussion about the Black Templars being horribly weakened by the best rule they ever had given to them, preferred enemy. After 6th ed dropped, preferred enemy changed and the vow made Templars have rage. I did some mathhammer and figured out when it comes to a 10 man crusader squad with the build listed below against marine equals, it has around a 1 to 2 wound difference comparing it to preferred enemy. Even with such a small difference, there is just something wrong now with the Templars. Rage is just not reliable and effective like preferred enemy was. We used to have this edge over other marine armies in CC. Except Grey Knights. I used to be able to crush 30 man ork boy squads with 7 assault terminators with 5 lightning claws. Isn't the case anymore. Even with the extra 5 LC attacks. Templars have just turned into a marine army with overpriced razorbacks, 2 required HQs for warlord, and horrible special rules. I heard the codex will be updated soon, but rumors are rumors. Guess we have to suffer for now. Anyone agree with me? Thoughts?


Crusader Squad
10 initiates
1 meltagun
1 powerfist

It's punishment for Heresy.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's punishment for Heresy.

Lol, Templars are one of the most devoted space marine chapters in all of Warhammer 40k. They are even described as beyond fanatical. They didn't deserve the nerf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does anyone think Templars should get new universal rules like hatred for their new dex?

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Hi DakkaDakka,


I wanted to openly discussion about the Black Templars being horribly weakened by the best rule they ever had given to them, preferred enemy. After 6th ed dropped, preferred enemy changed and the vow made Templars have rage. I did some mathhammer and figured out when it comes to a 10 man crusader squad with the build listed below against marine equals, it has around a 1 to 2 wound difference comparing it to preferred enemy. Even with such a small difference, there is just something wrong now with the Templars. Rage is just not reliable and effective like preferred enemy was. We used to have this edge over other marine armies in CC. Except Grey Knights. I used to be able to crush 30 man ork boy squads with 7 assault terminators with 5 lightning claws. Isn't the case anymore. Even with the extra 5 LC attacks. Templars have just turned into a marine army with overpriced razorbacks, 2 required HQs for warlord, and horrible special rules. I heard the codex will be updated soon, but rumors are rumors. Guess we have to suffer for now. Anyone agree with me? Thoughts?


Crusader Squad
10 initiates
1 meltagun
1 powerfist

I agree with you that Black Templar's got kicked in the balls. I do hope that they continue the Black Templar codex, and not have it conform with the regular marine dex. On the bright side we have arguably the best terminators the marines for their point cost (close combat with rage + furious charge, or with shooting, being able to take 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad with tank hunters), and terminators got a huge boost due to 2+ saves being op. The other nice edition is the ability to take ally's if one wanted to still be competitive with the crusaders by filling in gaps with what they lack.

When the Black Templar codex was first written, all preferred enemy DID was allow you to hit your opponent on 3's regardless of WS. When they changed it to 're-roll misses all the time every time', Black Templars got an UNGODLY army-wide buff with that vow.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that changing, and I honestly think that even Rage is a little TOO good as things stand.

Panzerboy26 wrote:When the Black Templar codex was first written, all preferred enemy DID was allow you to hit your opponent on 3's regardless of WS. When they changed it to 're-roll misses all the time every time', Black Templars got an UNGODLY army-wide buff with that vow.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that changing, and I honestly think that even Rage is a little TOO good as things stand.

A little too good? That was the best thing going for them. Besides that. Nothing was really that special. With the re-rolls. You really give your army something worth fielding. Without it you just get marines with CCWs and rage. Nothing else dude. So I feel we got nerfed too hard. Because we had nothing else good in CC except that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ozomoto wrote:

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Hi DakkaDakka,


I wanted to openly discussion about the Black Templars being horribly weakened by the best rule they ever had given to them, preferred enemy. After 6th ed dropped, preferred enemy changed and the vow made Templars have rage. I did some mathhammer and figured out when it comes to a 10 man crusader squad with the build listed below against marine equals, it has around a 1 to 2 wound difference comparing it to preferred enemy. Even with such a small difference, there is just something wrong now with the Templars. Rage is just not reliable and effective like preferred enemy was. We used to have this edge over other marine armies in CC. Except Grey Knights. I used to be able to crush 30 man ork boy squads with 7 assault terminators with 5 lightning claws. Isn't the case anymore. Even with the extra 5 LC attacks. Templars have just turned into a marine army with overpriced razorbacks, 2 required HQs for warlord, and horrible special rules. I heard the codex will be updated soon, but rumors are rumors. Guess we have to suffer for now. Anyone agree with me? Thoughts?


Crusader Squad
10 initiates
1 meltagun
1 powerfist

I agree with you that Black Templar's got kicked in the balls. I do hope that they continue the Black Templar codex, and not have it conform with the regular marine dex. On the bright side we have arguably the best terminators the marines for their point cost (close combat with rage + furious charge, or with shooting, being able to take 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad with tank hunters), and terminators got a huge boost due to 2+ saves being op. The other nice edition is the ability to take ally's if one wanted to still be competitive with the crusaders by filling in gaps with what they lack.

Thats true, taking allies is nice option. And your right, our Terminators, next to GK terminators. Are the best. I hope they give us Hatred or Zealot in the new dex. If that happens. I will feel more at home with the Templars. We are going to be updated either after Chaos which is first on the list or after Tau, 2nd on the list. Lets hope Terminators get to keep furious charge and tank hunters too.

To me its a double nerf... furious charge and AAC got much worse

Lobukia wrote:To me its a double nerf... furious charge and AAC got much worse

I was kind of sugar coating my thoughts when I posted this. Didn't want people thinking I was whiny, to be honest I feel like the Black Templar codex got pick up by GW and smashed and shredded on the ground. GW has really screwed over the Templars for now. Lets hope for an update soon man.

Stormtrooper520 wrote:

Lobukia wrote:To me its a double nerf... furious charge and AAC got much worse

I was kind of sugar coating my thoughts when I posted this. Didn't want people thinking I was whiny, to be honest I feel like the Black Templar codex got pick up by GW and smashed and shredded on the ground. GW has really screwed over the Templars for now. Lets hope for an update soon man.

There are rumors and indicators that BT won't get a new dex. Instead the old dex will be voided (like Daemon Hunters and Kroot Mercs) and the BT will be rolled into the SM Codex. I really hope that the rumors are either false, or the BT flavor and abilities can be handled within the SM codex (which I doubt).

The sad thing is, at one point in the early - mid 2000's, Templars were one of the most popular armies out there. You'd see more Templars at a tournament than wolves and blood angels.

Yes they got nerfed. I've heard they even lost the Typhoon double missiles in the FAQ, so now they are back to twinlinked missile launchers.

I used BT Termies as allies today. Didn't get a chance to charge, so the skills were useless, but being able to shrug off power weapons was hotness.

75pt Typhoons are still pretty awesome. Especially as they're standoff shooters, so aren't screwed by being easily killed in assault or by multiple glances from bolters like other vehicles which need to get close.

Fearless in HtH just got even BETTER with the removal of No Retreat.

I see a lot of folks complaining that their armies have been nerfed; I have seen this complaint from players of almost every army out there. I think a lot of it is just change, which isn't always nerfing, especially in relation to other armies.

Now, that being said, the BT vow change from Preferred Enemy to Rage is a genuine nerf. But I don't think it's so bad it ruins the army.

KGatch113 wrote:

The sad thing is, at one point in the early - mid 2000's, Templars were one of the most popular armies out there. You'd see more Templars at a tournament than wolves and blood angels.

Yes they got nerfed. I've heard they even lost the Typhoon double missiles in the FAQ, so now they are back to twinlinked missile launchers.

I used BT Termies as allies today. Didn't get a chance to charge, so the skills were useless, but being able to shrug off power weapons was hotness.

That sucks they are twinlinked now. Stuff just gets worse in worse as I hear new stuff man.

Panzerboy26 wrote:When the Black Templar codex was first written, all preferred enemy DID was allow you to hit your opponent on 3's regardless of WS. When they changed it to 're-roll misses all the time every time', Black Templars got an UNGODLY army-wide buff with that vow.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that changing, and I honestly think that even Rage is a little TOO good as things stand.

Hmm, I guess "UNGODLY" means 2nd to last in placement at Ard Boyz and Nova, I didn't see Adepticon results. Personal insults are not acceptable on Dakka. -Mannahnin

Mannahnin wrote:75pt Typhoons are still pretty awesome. Especially as they're standoff shooters, so aren't screwed by being easily killed in assault or by multiple glances from bolters like other vehicles which need to get close.

Fearless in HtH just got even BETTER with the removal of No Retreat.

I see a lot of folks complaining that their armies have been nerfed; I have seen this complaint from players of almost every army out there. I think a lot of it is just change, which isn't always nerfing, especially in relation to other armies.

Now, that being said, the BT vow change from Preferred Enemy to Rage is a genuine nerf. But I don't think it's so bad it ruins the army.

I think Black Templars got the biggest nerf. I think taking away an ability that made the army seem so unique from other marine armies. Makes it lose value to play it. It makes it feel bland to me. Thats why I complain mostly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Movac wrote:

Panzerboy26 wrote:When the Black Templar codex was first written, all preferred enemy DID was allow you to hit your opponent on 3's regardless of WS. When they changed it to 're-roll misses all the time every time', Black Templars got an UNGODLY army-wide buff with that vow.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that changing, and I honestly think that even Rage is a little TOO good as things stand.

Hmm, I guess "UNGODLY" means 2nd to last in placement at Ard Boyz and Nova, I didn't see Adepticon results. Your lack of intelligence has provoked my ignore button.

Damnnn, 2nd to last.. Now they are even worse without preferred enemy. I'm going to have fun at my next tourney...

I'm just saying, this is much closer to what it should be, what the Codex was when it was first written. 5th ed gave Templars a MASSIVE buff. Taking away that MASSIVE buff does not deflate the army, it puts them back where they should be.

It's the same thing with Necrons. Suddenly they are AMAZING at killing tanks. This is NOT new. This is how things were in 3rd and 4th edition. 5th edition came along and took it away from them, and now 6th edition has given it back to them.

Templars never were gods of CC. They were special because they got to take HUGE marine units kitted for CC, got across the table faster, and once they were stuck in, they were utterly Fearless with no downsides, you had to kill them to the man, they didn't fall back. All of these things are still true.

Them spending an edition with twin-linked close combat attacks is a quirk that was NEVER meant to be the unified field theory for the army. Templars are back to what they were before 5th, which is as they should be.

I'm not going to rage over the change that is a very clear nerf. Things like this happen when a Codex becomes two editions old.

I bought some Grey Knights last year to go along my 3e DH models, but despite INAPPROPRIATE FOR DAKKA that was the new GK codex I never switched BT from my primary army. I will definitely be shelving the BT for my IF or GK until they get a new codex. I have faith that they will be a lot of fun to play in the future.

Panzerboy26 wrote:I'm just saying, this is much closer to what it should be, what the Codex was when it was first written. 5th ed gave Templars a MASSIVE buff. Taking away that MASSIVE buff does not deflate the army, it puts them back where they should be.

It's the same thing with Necrons. Suddenly they are AMAZING at killing tanks. This is NOT new. This is how things were in 3rd and 4th edition. 5th edition came along and took it away from them, and now 6th edition has given it back to them.

Templars never were gods of CC. They were special because they got to take HUGE marine units kitted for CC, got across the table faster, and once they were stuck in, they were utterly Fearless with no downsides, you had to kill them to the man, they didn't fall back. All of these things are still true.

Them spending an edition with twin-linked close combat attacks is a quirk that was NEVER meant to be the unified field theory for the army. Templars are back to what they were before 5th, which is as they should be.

To me it made sense for them to have preferred enemy. It might sound crazy, but Templars are supposed to be crazy marines in close combat, so they had preferred enemy, which made some sense. Now it seems like Space Wolves have become the Templar codex just 5x better. They have mark of the wulfen and things like that. Don't one of their units have rage too? I don't know. I'll eventually get over this change.

Movac wrote:

Panzerboy26 wrote:When the Black Templar codex was first written, all preferred enemy DID was allow you to hit your opponent on 3's regardless of WS. When they changed it to 're-roll misses all the time every time', Black Templars got an UNGODLY army-wide buff with that vow.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that changing, and I honestly think that even Rage is a little TOO good as things stand.

Hmm, I guess "UNGODLY" means 2nd to last in placement at Ard Boyz and Nova, I didn't see Adepticon results. Your lack of intelligence has provoked my ignore button.

2nd to last out of how many BT players in attendance? Were good players playing them?

Tournament results from events where 80 percent of the field plays codexes released within 2 years of the event don't convince me that BT were a bad army in 5th. They were not. I fought them more than once in the hands of very skilled players, and they were a nightmare to face.

Panzerboy26 wrote:I'm just saying, this is much closer to what it should be, what the Codex was when it was first written. 5th ed gave Templars a MASSIVE buff. Taking away that MASSIVE buff does not deflate the army, it puts them back where they should be.

It's the same thing with Necrons. Suddenly they are AMAZING at killing tanks. This is NOT new. This is how things were in 3rd and 4th edition. 5th edition came along and took it away from them, and now 6th edition has given it back to them.

Templars never were gods of CC. They were special because they got to take HUGE marine units kitted for CC, got across the table faster, and once they were stuck in, they were utterly Fearless with no downsides, you had to kill them to the man, they didn't fall back. All of these things are still true.

Them spending an edition with twin-linked close combat attacks is a quirk that was NEVER meant to be the unified field theory for the army. Templars are back to what they were before 5th, which is as they should be.

Rage works on the charge. Hitting on 3+ works all the time, even if you get charged. Massive difference.


Also, the hell GW, why did you feel like you needed to revert Land Speeder Typhoons to only firing S5 small blasts? That's like one of three good units in the Codex and they had to kill it. AAARGH!

Movac wrote:
Hmm, I guess "UNGODLY" means 2nd to last in placement at Ard Boyz and Nova, I didn't see Adepticon results. Your lack of intelligence has provoked my ignore button.

Lol to using those as a metric for army worth. I think you're doing anyone you ignore a huge favor, Bennet.

Next time don't use the knife.

RxGhost wrote:

Movac wrote:
Hmm, I guess "UNGODLY" means 2nd to last in placement at Ard Boyz and Nova, I didn't see Adepticon results. Your lack of intelligence has provoked my ignore button.

Lol to using those as a metric for army worth.

Yes, using big, well-known and respected tournaments as a measurement of how good an army is in a tournament environment is silly. Except it's not.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

RxGhost wrote:

Movac wrote:
Hmm, I guess "UNGODLY" means 2nd to last in placement at Ard Boyz and Nova, I didn't see Adepticon results. Your lack of intelligence has provoked my ignore button.

Lol to using those as a metric for army worth.

Yes, using big, well-known and respected tournaments as a measurement of how good an army is in a tournament environment is silly. Except it's not.

You were making sense up until the end when it looks like you hit yourself in the face and maybe lost your train of thought. I don't know, be gentle with yourself you're too fragile for this kind of hard work.

40K tournament scenes are just about the worst way you can judge how effective a codex will be. Oh wow, top whatevers consist of two to three armies spamming 3 different unit types set up in point value/table setups/scenarios specific to those events.

Who knew* that taking 9 Basilisks in a 2500pt game on a 4'x6' table would be an effective strategy in a min/maxed game with poor terrain layout OH MY GOD IG IS THE NEW POWER ARMY!

*The answer is everyone in case you didn't know.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

RxGhost wrote:

Movac wrote:
Hmm, I guess "UNGODLY" means 2nd to last in placement at Ard Boyz and Nova, I didn't see Adepticon results. Your lack of intelligence has provoked my ignore button.

Lol to using those as a metric for army worth.

Yes, using big, well-known and respected tournaments as a measurement of how good an army is in a tournament environment is silly. Except it's not.

All events like that tell me is that if 30 percent of the field takes Space Wolves, and 30 percent takes Grey Knights, and another 30 percent takes Guard, there's a good chance the top 8 players will very likely mostly be playing one of those three armies. What it does not tell me is if the remaining 10 percent of the field that consists of the OTHER armies are any good. NOVA GT is what... 200+ guys? I'm guessing Black Templar attendance in 5th would be in the single digits. If there are comparable numbers of every army in attendance, then I might give some credit to those tournament results as far as ranking the power of armies. This is very much not the case.

You guys can hem and haw about how 'this tournament that' and 'that tournament this', but Panzer's right, it's garbage data. It's all biased and it's no good for proving any hypothesis right or wrong.

Templars were among the weaker armies.


Simple put:

Rage is much worse than Preferred enemy. MUCH worse.
However it can a bit compensated with chaplains, with are a bit better on the templar side.



Strenght:

- Characters can have eternal warior
- Chaplains can have equipment
- Tactical Termonators (2 heavy weapons+Tank hunter)
- 5 Man Tactical Marines wiht heavy weapon
- Dreads with tank hunter
- Assualt Terminators with Rage and Furios Charge
-18% cheaper Landspeder-Typhoon
- Vindicator & Predatorwith machine spirit
- AAC and With vow
- Cheaper all lasers Predator Annihaltor
- Droppod 5 points cheaper

Weakness:

- Special characters
- No Psy
- Must take champion
- Tactical Marines/Iniates costs
- No Sergeants
- No Scouts
- Bikes and assualt Marines are expensive, bikes have no Boltpistol
- No Devastators
- Whirlwind and cheap Rhino only thgrough IA
- No flyers
- Predators mostly more expensive



(read on GW-Fanworld)

Wow, I cant believe this fourm. I think Templars are more competitive then ever! I honestly dont even think we need a new codex. Our FAQ brings us up to date with normal Marines. AAC is not broken what so ever. So, on the charge youll have 2 power fist attacks with 5ed rules? Now we have 3 attacks. Its not like its 10x better, but its still a great VOW.

Plus if we still had preferred enemy, we would be a worse army then GK. re-rolls to shoot? you know how many typhoons, cyclone ML we would have rocking the board? then the Templars would be OP. Our Chaplin actually have power now, we have a use for them. With 5th ed ACC i never ran one, it didnt pay to. Plus our bikes, terminators, techmarines, typhoons are all great models that give us an advantage in this edition.

5 bikes, 3 power weapons in there, plus an attack bike. then throw in a techmarine with another 2 PW attacks, plus a PF attack? Nobody else gets that.

Last night i ran a 20 man blob squad, with my techmarine leading it. The deployment was the "Big guns" and i thought i was screw(setting up on the long side of the table edge). I ran that squad across the whole board (36+") only losing 3 total guys with my techmarine up front. He had his 2+, 3+inv.

I think Black Templars are still a great army, with a TON of options for army lists in 6th edition.

Getting rage instead is amazing, don't listen to the fools.

+2 attacks means your lack of having sargents means you get double normal attacks that you used to get on those special weapons.

Furthermore the standard setup for players that actually knew how to play BT didn't involve the need for more than 2 blobs, and they normally put 2 chaplins in each unit, solving the other problem of rolling to hit that you currently have. Adding in some vindicators and tank hunting terminators with cyclones and BT were and still are amazing. Of course the vindicators can be swapped out for something else if need be.

Their speeders are amazing, and tank hunting venerables with TL lascannons can solve your flying problems easily.

Dark Scipio wrote:Templars were among the weaker armies.


Simple put:

Rage is much worse than Preferred enemy. MUCH worse.
However it can a bit compensated with chaplains, with are a bit better on the templar side.



Strenght:

- Characters can have eternal warior
- Chaplains can have equipment
- Tactical Termonators (2 heavy weapons+Tank hunter)
- 5 Man Tactical Marines wiht heavy weapon
- Dreads with tank hunter
- Assualt Terminators with Rage and Furios Charge
-18% cheaper Landspeder-Typhoon
- Vindicator & Predatorwith machine spirit
- AAC and With vow
- Cheaper all lasers Predator Annihaltor
- Droppod 5 points cheaper

Weakness:

- Special characters
- No Psy
- Must take champion
- Tactical Marines/Iniates costs
- No Sergeants
- No Scouts
- Bikes and assualt Marines are expensive, bikes have no Boltpistol
- No Devastators
- Whirlwind and cheap Rhino only thgrough IA
- No flyers
- Predators mostly more expensive



(read on GW-Fanworld)

I know we still have things better than other codexes, like the chaplains, but when I want to take a marshal for the LD boost, a chaplain for re-rolls and then the emperor's champion. Thats overload. 3 HQs is just too much.

Insulting people on Dakka is a violation of Rule #1, and your terms of service. If you continue to do it you are forfeiting your posting privileges. -Mannahnin

J99Pwrangler wrote:Wow, I cant believe this fourm. I think Templars are more competitive then ever! I honestly dont even think we need a new codex. Our FAQ brings us up to date with normal Marines. AAC is not broken what so ever. So, on the charge youll have 2 power fist attacks with 5ed rules? Now we have 3 attacks. Its not like its 10x better, but its still a great VOW.

Plus if we still had preferred enemy, we would be a worse army then GK. re-rolls to shoot? you know how many typhoons, cyclone ML we would have rocking the board? then the Templars would be OP. Our Chaplin actually have power now, we have a use for them. With 5th ed ACC i never ran one, it didnt pay to. Plus our bikes, terminators, techmarines, typhoons are all great models that give us an advantage in this edition.

5 bikes, 3 power weapons in there, plus an attack bike. then throw in a techmarine with another 2 PW attacks, plus a PF attack? Nobody else gets that.

Last night i ran a 20 man blob squad, with my techmarine leading it. The deployment was the "Big guns" and i thought i was screw(setting up on the long side of the table edge). I ran that squad across the whole board (36+") only losing 3 total guys with my techmarine up front. He had his 2+, 3+inv.

I think Black Templars are still a great army, with a TON of options for army lists in 6th edition.

Rage is WORSE than PE, even on the charge. The new PE is in fact only slighlty worse than the old.

You know that Templar bike have only one attack with a power weapon?

juraigamer wrote:Getting rage instead is amazing, don't listen to the fools.

+2 attacks means your lack of having sargents means you get double normal attacks that you used to get on those special weapons.

Furthermore the standard setup for players that actually knew how to play BT didn't involve the need for more than 2 blobs, and they normally put 2 chaplins in each unit, solving the other problem of rolling to hit that you currently have. Adding in some vindicators and tank hunting terminators with cyclones and BT were and still are amazing. Of course the vindicators can be swapped out for something else if need be.

Their speeders are amazing, and tank hunting venerables with TL lascannons can solve your flying problems easily.

So you are calling others fools. That pretty rude. And not very smart either, as you cant do simple math (Rage always worse than PE).

Standard setup for Templars included 2 chaplains? In which world? Now perhaps, but not until now. And we still need the Ld10 Marschall boost. What now?

The Crusader wrote:There's so much wrong with this it's silly it warrants this:

Indeed.