Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Hi DakkaDakka,


I wanted to openly discussion about the Black Templars being horribly weakened by the best rule they ever had given to them, preferred enemy. After 6th ed dropped, preferred enemy changed and the vow made Templars have rage. I did some mathhammer and figured out when it comes to a 10 man crusader squad with the build listed below against marine equals, it has around a 1 to 2 wound difference comparing it to preferred enemy. Even with such a small difference, there is just something wrong now with the Templars. Rage is just not reliable and effective like preferred enemy was. We used to have this edge over other marine armies in CC. Except Grey Knights. I used to be able to crush 30 man ork boy squads with 7 assault terminators with 5 lightning claws. Isn't the case anymore. Even with the extra 5 LC attacks. Templars have just turned into a marine army with overpriced razorbacks, 2 required HQs for warlord, and horrible special rules. I heard the codex will be updated soon, but rumors are rumors. Guess we have to suffer for now. Anyone agree with me? Thoughts?


Crusader Squad
10 initiates
1 meltagun
1 powerfist

Boohoo you can't walk all over other armies in CC anymore. You still have an advantage, but you are complaining your advantage isn't as awesome as it used to be. Hard to feel bad for you, mate. Your own comments admit the difference is small, but somehow that means you army is now no better than basic marines and they are "horribly weakened". Time for some perspective methinks.

Skriker

Black Templars could always go back to being a chapter in Codex: Space Marines................

J99Pwrangler wrote:

To any who are interested in the Typhoon Missile Launcher: It has not been nerfed.

I would like to put this issue to rest. This is an error in the English codex. In every other language version there is an entry for page 39 and 48 which clearly indicates that, yes, the Black Templars Typhoon is still a Heavy 2 Missile Launcher, and yes, this is an error only. This is definitive proof, unless non-English speaking Typhoons are supposed to be somehow better??

Praise the Emperor.

I fully expect this oversight to be corrected in the next version of the FAQ. The same stat line is also included in the other language versions of the FAQ. If you don't believe me, look for yourself:

German:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420325a_Black_Templars_FAQ_6Ed_v1.pdf

And the most positive proof:

French:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420374a_FAQ_Black_Templars_6%C3%A9d_version_1_0_-_juillet_2012

Which was updated on the 2nd of July, making it much more recent than the English codex. If it was an error with the other language FAQs, wouldn't they have fixed it with the newer updates?

Well in the ENGLISH FAQ says we dont get that. I am not sure how we are going to use a french, or German FAQ in the USA. I have a friend who has an e-mail in to GW about this. As of right now the Black Templar Typhoon ML is Heavy 1. I hate to say that, but I need proof proving this otherwise.....

Sorry thats a bit silly. Every language has the fix execept english, that is common sense.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:On an unrelated note: The Emperor's Champion's Black Sword is an unusual Power Weapon. Model as Mace, get a total of +4 Strength, swing with S8 AP3 (due to being unusual) at I5. Hilarity ensues.

I...what? Is that allowed? If so, the 'Black Mace' may become quite commonplace...

Unusual Power Weapons are AP3 and use their own rules. The Black Sword is a Power Weapon that adds 2 to the user's Strength. Power weapons come in a variety of versions, including Power Maces that are AP4 and add 2 to the user's Strength. A "Black Mace" would thus be both AP4 and AP3 and add 4 to it's user's Strength. 100% legal, trolololol.

It's either an AP 3 weapon with its own rules, or it's a maul. Can't be both.

It's an AP3 weapon that adds 2 to the user's Strength and counts as a Power Weapon. A Power Maul is a Power Weapon. Yes, it can.

Having asked in YMDC and being directed to the right part of the Rulebook I'm afraid I was wrong; it can't. :(

However i think it is still s6 I5 ap3 Correct. That was my current understanding it is regular strength plus mods regular initative plus mods ap3

The rules are pretty simple. Its just S6 SP3 weapon, no matter wich type of powerweapon.

Dark Scipio wrote:The rules are pretty simple. Its just S6 SP3 weapon, no matter wich type of powerweapon.

still nice it wounds meqs on a 2 MC's on 4's and cuts through most armor

Dark Scipio wrote:

J99Pwrangler wrote:

To any who are interested in the Typhoon Missile Launcher: It has not been nerfed.

I would like to put this issue to rest. This is an error in the English codex. In every other language version there is an entry for page 39 and 48 which clearly indicates that, yes, the Black Templars Typhoon is still a Heavy 2 Missile Launcher, and yes, this is an error only. This is definitive proof, unless non-English speaking Typhoons are supposed to be somehow better??

Praise the Emperor.

I fully expect this oversight to be corrected in the next version of the FAQ. The same stat line is also included in the other language versions of the FAQ. If you don't believe me, look for yourself:

German:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420325a_Black_Templars_FAQ_6Ed_v1.pdf

And the most positive proof:

French:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420374a_FAQ_Black_Templars_6%C3%A9d_version_1_0_-_juillet_2012

Which was updated on the 2nd of July, making it much more recent than the English codex. If it was an error with the other language FAQs, wouldn't they have fixed it with the newer updates?

Well in the ENGLISH FAQ says we dont get that. I am not sure how we are going to use a french, or German FAQ in the USA. I have a friend who has an e-mail in to GW about this. As of right now the Black Templar Typhoon ML is Heavy 1. I hate to say that, but I need proof proving this otherwise.....

Sorry thats a bit silly. Every language has the fix execept english, that is common sense.

Agreed. This isn't about using the FAQ from another country in the US, it is proof that the English FAQ has an error in the Heavy 2 launcher omission if every other language version (ones which were released more recently than the English one) has it. Take that as you will; I have also emailed GW, so we'll see what they say. Sadly, to really put this to rest the FAQ will need to be updated, which I'm sure it will be.

Skriker wrote:

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Hi DakkaDakka,


I wanted to openly discussion about the Black Templars being horribly weakened by the best rule they ever had given to them, preferred enemy. After 6th ed dropped, preferred enemy changed and the vow made Templars have rage. I did some mathhammer and figured out when it comes to a 10 man crusader squad with the build listed below against marine equals, it has around a 1 to 2 wound difference comparing it to preferred enemy. Even with such a small difference, there is just something wrong now with the Templars. Rage is just not reliable and effective like preferred enemy was. We used to have this edge over other marine armies in CC. Except Grey Knights. I used to be able to crush 30 man ork boy squads with 7 assault terminators with 5 lightning claws. Isn't the case anymore. Even with the extra 5 LC attacks. Templars have just turned into a marine army with overpriced razorbacks, 2 required HQs for warlord, and horrible special rules. I heard the codex will be updated soon, but rumors are rumors. Guess we have to suffer for now. Anyone agree with me? Thoughts?


Crusader Squad
10 initiates
1 meltagun
1 powerfist

Boohoo you can't walk all over other armies in CC anymore. You still have an advantage, but you are complaining your advantage isn't as awesome as it used to be. Hard to feel bad for you, mate. Your own comments admit the difference is small, but somehow that means you army is now no better than basic marines and they are "horribly weakened". Time for some perspective methinks.

Skriker

Templars walked all over other armies in CC? Pass me the weed. Except for Assault Terminators (who even have "assault" in their name, they're SUPPOSED to be good in CC) we were as good in CC as other variant Marine Codices, except we didn't get grenades, but without their cheap transports and psychic defense. Now we're worse than every other Marine Codex in CC other than Vanilla Tac Marines except on the turn we charge, in which case we're slightly better. Time for some perspective, methinks.

GW completely screwed BT in the new rule book. They must have noticed (as it seems to be on purpose), and its EXTREMELY rude to the fanbase that dedicated their time and money to GW's product. But customer service seems to be back burner to them.

With that being said.........to hell with them. Were still playing BT and making viable lists. Over at B&C were constantly experimenting and you see a lot of great tactica over there. Dont ever drop BT, you make do, and you kick ass. Its that simple.

d3m01iti0n wrote:GW completely screwed BT in the new rule book. They must have noticed (as it seems to be on purpose), and its EXTREMELY rude to the fanbase that dedicated their time and money to GW's product. But customer service seems to be back burner to them.

With that being said.........to hell with them. Were still playing BT and making viable lists. Over at B&C were constantly experimenting and you see a lot of great tactica over there. Dont ever drop BT, you make do, and you kick ass. Its that simple.

They did screw us, but I still played them at my club last night, I fielded a mech list against Blood Angels jump back list in close combat. He fielded 2 Assault Squads, 1 death company squad, 2 predators, snipers, librarian, and a sanguinary squad.

First turn I blew up his whole death company squad with a demolisher, and killed his 5 of his assault marines with a LRC. Next turn he drops down in a drop pod with marines, Pop out my 7 assault terminators with a chaplain and killed them with re-rolls(still miss PE though). Killed his libby in the open, then swarmed my opponents sanguinary guard and with my emperors champion, 10 marines and a marshal on a bike. Wiped the whole squad from mass attacks from Rage. I left so things out, but in the end, He killed 5 terminators, 1 vindicator, a 4 man biker squad, and 4 initiates. I killed a librarian, sanguinary guard, 2 Assault squads, a death company squad, a tactical squad, a scout squad and a drop pod.

A solid win for Templars

Yes that was pointless to write that ^. But I wanted to just prove a point showing templars are still kicking it. They can still outmatch armies in 6th. So keep playing Templars if anyone doubts them!

Im happy with AAC becoming Rage, but it makes Chappys mandatory with your CC squads. As I JUST bought a Termi and Power Armor Chappys right before 6th it doesnt bother me =)

Yeah Chaplains are really nice, Even with a power maul its fine. Most armies don't have a power armor saves, only MEQs. Having rage really helps, because you out hit other marines in attacks which is a great feeling.

Agreed, Black Templars may not have the most updated rules... but I have been playing them for too long to not use them. I just make do with what I have. Just keep tweeking my list to make it that much more competitive.

Well said d3m01iti0n, and Stormtrooper520.

Skriker wrote:

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Hi DakkaDakka,


I wanted to openly discussion about the Black Templars being horribly weakened by the best rule they ever had given to them, preferred enemy. After 6th ed dropped, preferred enemy changed and the vow made Templars have rage. I did some mathhammer and figured out when it comes to a 10 man crusader squad with the build listed below against marine equals, it has around a 1 to 2 wound difference comparing it to preferred enemy. Even with such a small difference, there is just something wrong now with the Templars. Rage is just not reliable and effective like preferred enemy was. We used to have this edge over other marine armies in CC. Except Grey Knights. I used to be able to crush 30 man ork boy squads with 7 assault terminators with 5 lightning claws. Isn't the case anymore. Even with the extra 5 LC attacks. Templars have just turned into a marine army with overpriced razorbacks, 2 required HQs for warlord, and horrible special rules. I heard the codex will be updated soon, but rumors are rumors. Guess we have to suffer for now. Anyone agree with me? Thoughts?


Crusader Squad
10 initiates
1 meltagun
1 powerfist

Boohoo you can't walk all over other armies in CC anymore. You still have an advantage, but you are complaining your advantage isn't as awesome as it used to be. Hard to feel bad for you, mate. Your own comments admit the difference is small, but somehow that means you army is now no better than basic marines and they are "horribly weakened". Time for some perspective methinks.

Skriker

Well then, let me reply on a nicer note than you did.. You don't seem like a templar player. So let me explain it to you simply. We are a 4th edition army that is limited in our units. Some are very overpriced (razorbacks and bikers). Our only advantage was the 5th edition preferred enemy. Which gave us a small advantage in CC. and some other rules if we were footslogging. We are now required 2 HQs and another 1 (Chaplain) for a dedicated assault unit (Assault Teminators). We do have few smaller things like tank hunters and furious charge on our terminators and dreadnoughts.

We have things like a 5 man squad can a heavy weapon or a power weapon, and giving our vindicators and predators POTHMS, but it is expensive. Thats our most common differences. But if you look at other MEQs. They can bring more units because they are cheaper and they have better HQs. The only thing people were most afraid of in a templar army was an Assault Terminator Squad in a LRC with Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy. That was our "deathstar" you could say.

Taking that away made us seem more like overpriced vanilla marine army, but with squads with CCWs and Bolt pistols.

And I wouldn't care if you felt bad for me, I'd still slaughter your guys in the name of emperor. lol

I agree that GW did a disservice to the fanbase, especially since BT players seem to be some of the most loyal to the faction. Regardless of any nerfs/boosts, remember brothers, it is called the ETERNAL crusade.

BTNeophyte wrote:I agree that GW did a disservice to the fanbase, especially since BT players seem to be some of the most loyal to the faction. Regardless of any nerfs/boosts, remember brothers, it is called the ETERNAL crusade.

Yeah honestly, we are a 4th edition codex and we still have a nice sized and extremely loyal fanbase. What GW did was uncalled for. I know people who went to armies like Grey Knights because they were top tier last edition, but before then. I saw almost no people play as DaemonHunters. Black Templar players in my opinion are some of the most loyal to their faction.

I will play Templars until the end!

I really hope that if (when) the BT are rolled into the new SM codex, they are given a huge section (or, dare I dream, they are on the cover) that lets their fluff, nomenclature, and such survive for another edition.

Lobukia wrote:I really hope that if (when) the BT are rolled into the new SM codex, they are given a huge section (or, dare I dream, they are on the cover) that lets their fluff, nomenclature, and such survive for another edition.

I hope so too. I just don't exactly want them rolled in. I think they should be separate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How are you guys running Close Combat lists now? In rhinos and Land Raiders or Foot or Drop Pods?

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Well then, let me reply on a nicer note than you did.. You don't seem like a templar player. So let me explain it to you simply. We are a 4th edition army that is limited in our units. Some are very overpriced (razorbacks and bikers). Our only advantage was the 5th edition preferred enemy. Which gave us a small advantage in CC. and some other rules if we were footslogging. We are now required 2 HQs and another 1 (Chaplain) for a dedicated assault unit (Assault Teminators). We do have few smaller things like tank hunters and furious charge on our terminators and dreadnoughts.

We have things like a 5 man squad can a heavy weapon or a power weapon, and giving our vindicators and predators POTHMS, but it is expensive. Thats our most common differences. But if you look at other MEQs. They can bring more units because they are cheaper and they have better HQs. The only thing people were most afraid of in a templar army was an Assault Terminator Squad in a LRC with Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy. That was our "deathstar" you could say.

Taking that away made us seem more like overpriced vanilla marine army, but with squads with CCWs and Bolt pistols.

And I wouldn't care if you felt bad for me, I'd still slaughter your guys in the name of emperor. lol

Apologies for the tone of my original post was really getting my fill of "6th edition ruined my army" posts by that point. Sorry for being an ass...

That said you did admit that the difference in the rules as small, but then went on as if it was the end of the world anyway. BTs are still marines and as such are still a decent army. Just reading some of the other posts in the thread shows that they aren't useless, even when put up against one of the big power gamer offenders, the Blood Angels. Marines are marines, even when they are somewhat overpriced marines. Eldar and Tau have more room to complain about overpriced units for their abilities.

And your last line is the key anyway...you got a little nerf, but your Templars will still do the job...

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Yeah honestly, we are a 4th edition codex and we still have a nice sized and extremely loyal fanbase. What GW did was uncalled for. I know people who went to armies like Grey Knights because they were top tier last edition, but before then. I saw almost no people play as DaemonHunters. Black Templar players in my opinion are some of the most loyal to their faction.

I loved the Daemonhunters and Witchhunters books. The armies you could build were so varied and interesting, but definitely not ludicrously high powered by any means. I found the grey knights rules in that incarnation to be some of the best to me. Initially grey knights were so over priced and highly specialized against daemons they couldn't really succeed against other armies very well. The Daemonhunter's book brought their points more in line with their general abilities and the aspect that gave chaos forces buffs against the GKs to counter balance their extra abilities against them instead of hamstringing the GKs with over costed points was a really great idea to me. I loved playing my GKs with the never ending hordes of lesser daemons and beasts returning to the field. It always made the games feel the GKs really needed to be there. Now we've come full circle and now they are over powered against everyone. Blah... I sold my daemonhunters and witchhunters off before the new GK book appeared due to not really having time to play them as much any more, but was kind of glad I did after I saw the changes...they just don't fit my play style anymore.

Skriker

Skriker wrote:

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Well then, let me reply on a nicer note than you did.. You don't seem like a templar player. So let me explain it to you simply. We are a 4th edition army that is limited in our units. Some are very overpriced (razorbacks and bikers). Our only advantage was the 5th edition preferred enemy. Which gave us a small advantage in CC. and some other rules if we were footslogging. We are now required 2 HQs and another 1 (Chaplain) for a dedicated assault unit (Assault Teminators). We do have few smaller things like tank hunters and furious charge on our terminators and dreadnoughts.

We have things like a 5 man squad can a heavy weapon or a power weapon, and giving our vindicators and predators POTHMS, but it is expensive. Thats our most common differences. But if you look at other MEQs. They can bring more units because they are cheaper and they have better HQs. The only thing people were most afraid of in a templar army was an Assault Terminator Squad in a LRC with Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy. That was our "deathstar" you could say.

Taking that away made us seem more like overpriced vanilla marine army, but with squads with CCWs and Bolt pistols.

And I wouldn't care if you felt bad for me, I'd still slaughter your guys in the name of emperor. lol

Apologies for the tone of my original post was really getting my fill of "6th edition ruined my army" posts by that point. Sorry for being an ass...

That said you did admit that the difference in the rules as small, but then went on as if it was the end of the world anyway. BTs are still marines and as such are still a decent army. Just reading some of the other posts in the thread shows that they aren't useless, even when put up against one of the big power gamer offenders, the Blood Angels. Marines are marines, even when they are somewhat overpriced marines. Eldar and Tau have more room to complain about overpriced units for their abilities.

And your last line is the key anyway...you got a little nerf, but your Templars will still do the job...

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Yeah honestly, we are a 4th edition codex and we still have a nice sized and extremely loyal fanbase. What GW did was uncalled for. I know people who went to armies like Grey Knights because they were top tier last edition, but before then. I saw almost no people play as DaemonHunters. Black Templar players in my opinion are some of the most loyal to their faction.

I loved the Daemonhunters and Witchhunters books. The armies you could build were so varied and interesting, but definitely not ludicrously high powered by any means. I found the grey knights rules in that incarnation to be some of the best to me. Initially grey knights were so over priced and highly specialized against daemons they couldn't really succeed against other armies very well. The Daemonhunter's book brought their points more in line with their general abilities and the aspect that gave chaos forces buffs against the GKs to counter balance their extra abilities against them instead of hamstringing the GKs with over costed points was a really great idea to me. I loved playing my GKs with the never ending hordes of lesser daemons and beasts returning to the field. It always made the games feel the GKs really needed to be there. Now we've come full circle and now they are over powered against everyone. Blah... I sold my daemonhunters and witchhunters off before the new GK book appeared due to not really having time to play them as much any more, but was kind of glad I did after I saw the changes...they just don't fit my play style anymore.

Skriker

It's all good man . I did over react a tad about the Templars. The army is just so near and dear to me I was upset of even that slightest change. I'm fine now. I have adjusted a bit better to the changes. Some aren't so bad after all. I played my against Blood Angels last thrusday and Templars actually did really well on the charge with +2 extra attacks. Its not PE but its the next best thing.