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On an unrelated note: The Emperor's Champion's Black Sword is an unusual Power Weapon. Model as Mace, get a total of +4 Strength, swing with S8 AP3 (due to being unusual) at I5. Hilarity ensues.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:On an unrelated note: The Emperor's Champion's Black Sword is an unusual Power Weapon. Model as Mace, get a total of +4 Strength, swing with S8 AP3 (due to being unusual) at I5. Hilarity ensues.

I...what? Is that allowed? If so, the 'Black Mace' may become quite commonplace...

timetowaste85 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:On an unrelated note: The Emperor's Champion's Black Sword is an unusual Power Weapon. Model as Mace, get a total of +4 Strength, swing with S8 AP3 (due to being unusual) at I5. Hilarity ensues.

I...what? Is that allowed? If so, the 'Black Mace' may become quite commonplace...

Unusual Power Weapons are AP3 and use their own rules. The Black Sword is a Power Weapon that adds 2 to the user's Strength. Power weapons come in a variety of versions, including Power Maces that are AP4 and add 2 to the user's Strength. A "Black Mace" would thus be both AP4 and AP3 and add 4 to it's user's Strength. 100% legal, trolololol.

That is awesome! I'm doing that now hahaha

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:On an unrelated note: The Emperor's Champion's Black Sword is an unusual Power Weapon. Model as Mace, get a total of +4 Strength, swing with S8 AP3 (due to being unusual) at I5. Hilarity ensues.

I...what? Is that allowed? If so, the 'Black Mace' may become quite commonplace...

Unusual Power Weapons are AP3 and use their own rules. The Black Sword is a Power Weapon that adds 2 to the user's Strength. Power weapons come in a variety of versions, including Power Maces that are AP4 and add 2 to the user's Strength. A "Black Mace" would thus be both AP4 and AP3 and add 4 to it's user's Strength. 100% legal, trolololol.

Ugh, so now I need to make alternate EC's with maces...lol. I have a few chaos warrior maces that would look like suitable replacements. Also have 3 EC models-including the limited edition one with 2-handed sword!! Thanks, guy on Bartertown who sold it to me for $5!! (not a typo)

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:On an unrelated note: The Emperor's Champion's Black Sword is an unusual Power Weapon. Model as Mace, get a total of +4 Strength, swing with S8 AP3 (due to being unusual) at I5. Hilarity ensues.

I...what? Is that allowed? If so, the 'Black Mace' may become quite commonplace...

Unusual Power Weapons are AP3 and use their own rules. The Black Sword is a Power Weapon that adds 2 to the user's Strength. Power weapons come in a variety of versions, including Power Maces that are AP4 and add 2 to the user's Strength. A "Black Mace" would thus be both AP4 and AP3 and add 4 to it's user's Strength. 100% legal, trolololol.

It's either an AP 3 weapon with its own rules, or it's a maul. Can't be both.

I'm a bit confused, poster is saying they are slight better space marines......and space marines are now very good infantry, which 6th loves.

Just because they don't own everything in the face doesn't make them bad.

Lobukia wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:On an unrelated note: The Emperor's Champion's Black Sword is an unusual Power Weapon. Model as Mace, get a total of +4 Strength, swing with S8 AP3 (due to being unusual) at I5. Hilarity ensues.

I...what? Is that allowed? If so, the 'Black Mace' may become quite commonplace...

Unusual Power Weapons are AP3 and use their own rules. The Black Sword is a Power Weapon that adds 2 to the user's Strength. Power weapons come in a variety of versions, including Power Maces that are AP4 and add 2 to the user's Strength. A "Black Mace" would thus be both AP4 and AP3 and add 4 to it's user's Strength. 100% legal, trolololol.

It's either an AP 3 weapon with its own rules, or it's a maul. Can't be both.

It's an AP3 weapon that adds 2 to the user's Strength and counts as a Power Weapon. A Power Maul is a Power Weapon. Yes, it can.

Also, anyone thinking about running 2 ECs over 2000pts? FAQ says that you can, and it gets you 2 abilities too. I'm surprised nobody is running this yet, to be honest...

Anyone who wants to argue, see the bottom of the FAQ-second question from the end on the left.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:On an unrelated note: The Emperor's Champion's Black Sword is an unusual Power Weapon. Model as Mace, get a total of +4 Strength, swing with S8 AP3 (due to being unusual) at I5. Hilarity ensues.

I...what? Is that allowed? If so, the 'Black Mace' may become quite commonplace...

Unusual Power Weapons are AP3 and use their own rules. The Black Sword is a Power Weapon that adds 2 to the user's Strength. Power weapons come in a variety of versions, including Power Maces that are AP4 and add 2 to the user's Strength. A "Black Mace" would thus be both AP4 and AP3 and add 4 to it's user's Strength. 100% legal, trolololol.

It's either an AP 3 weapon with its own rules, or it's a maul. Can't be both.

It's an AP3 weapon that adds 2 to the user's Strength and counts as a Power Weapon. A Power Maul is a Power Weapon. Yes, it can.

Having asked in YMDC and being directed to the right part of the Rulebook I'm afraid I was wrong; it can't. :(

timetowaste85 wrote:Also, anyone thinking about running 2 ECs over 2000pts? FAQ says that you can, and it gets you 2 abilities too. I'm surprised nobody is running this yet, to be honest...

Anyone who wants to argue, see the bottom of the FAQ-second question from the end on the left.

In the FAQ you aren't allowed to take more than 1 emperors champion. I wish I could field 2.

Sigh, read it again-one per primary detachment. After hitting 2000, you get a second primary detachment. See the top of pg 110 in the BRB and the question from the FAQ that I already directed you to. Between the two of them, yes, you are allowed a second EC. I'm thinking AAC and Abhor the Witch, to be honest. In my Black Tide list that is:

2 ECs, a Marshal, 3 Reclusiarchs, 3 Tech Marines, 3 20 man units, and 3 5 man units w/ plasma and lascannons. 3 squads of support fire, 3 squads that rush forward, get re-rolls on righteous zeal and all have Ld 10. Every EC has a storm shield, Marshal can't be ID'd from S8+.

Actually, I think a Black Tide is fully viable this way-it moves fast, hits hard, and 3 ICs in each unit with current wound shenanigans allows for LOTS of soaked up wounds and a few dead Neophytes. Ouch. This might pinch a bit....

2 emperors champions... Makes no sense but then again most fluff doesn't make sense.

Stormtrooper520 wrote:2 emperors champions... Makes no sense but then again most fluff doesn't make sense.

Not really-there are crusades instead of chapters and each crusade has an EC. If two crusading groups come together, two ECs. It does work. And since you have two FOCs, each FOC can be considered a crusading group. It does work, fluff-wise. Fully fair and fluffy.

timetowaste85 wrote:

Stormtrooper520 wrote:2 emperors champions... Makes no sense but then again most fluff doesn't make sense.

Not really-there are crusades instead of chapters and each crusade has an EC. If two crusading groups come together, two ECs. It does work. And since you have two FOCs, each FOC can be considered a crusading group. It does work, fluff-wise. Fully fair and fluffy.

I thought there was only one Emperor's Champion. Only one marine gets a vision and he becomes the Emperor's Champion. Thought how that worked.

Stormtrooper520 wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:

Stormtrooper520 wrote:2 emperors champions... Makes no sense but then again most fluff doesn't make sense.

Not really-there are crusades instead of chapters and each crusade has an EC. If two crusading groups come together, two ECs. It does work. And since you have two FOCs, each FOC can be considered a crusading group. It does work, fluff-wise. Fully fair and fluffy.

I thought there was only one Emperor's Champion. Only one marine gets a vision and he becomes the Emperor's Champion. Thought how that worked.

Page 15 of the BT codex, about 4 sentences in-at least one per crusade, often one per fighting company.

Ah ok! Thanks for the clearance.

No sweat. Carry on the multi champions, brother!

Templars absolutely caught nerf, although not as bad as some armies (Kan Wall got reamed).

5th Edition Preferred enemy was powerful, but it is what made that book playable at higher levels. That was the balancing factor for everything being priced for 4th edition, and unnecessary restrictions on choices.

Now with it being removed (for what reason?) BT are now just an army that pays too much for everything. Half of a Blood Angel book can get rage, yet everything they have is updated prices, better characters, and blanket FNP. Rage only works if you can get the charge, unlike preferred enemy which happens all the time. Which they can no longer do out of the rhinos that they pay too much for.

Against a competent opponent, the only times Rage can be a sure thing is Assault marines (which BA have in spades, and BT pay too much for), Bikes (which BT pay too much for), or Land Raiders for assault ramps.

Their heavy hitting CC unit (Assault termies with LC) took a huge hit. While most Marine players already were using TH/SS, most Templar players had a mix, usually with more LCs. Now those LCs don't ignore all armor, and also don't get an initiative bump from FC.

But wait, you get FC! Oh yeah, they nerfed that too.

Another loss is with their old rule of no psykers and the new ally rules. While they haven't ever been able to ally with them, psykers were less of a presence in older editions. Now with allies they will be all over the place, and the one codex BT can ally with that can take psykers (Grey Knights) are not battle brothers.

The change to tank hunters is arguable, but now all those people who scoured for cyclones will now want Assault cannons on their terminators.

The BT did get nerfed, and those that say "well PE was too powerful and this is how they should be" haven't looked at the prices inside that codex lately.

I considered PE = the tax I paid on all comparable units. Rage is not worth that tax.

culsandar wrote:Templars absolutely caught nerf, although not as bad as some armies (Kan Wall got reamed).

5th Edition Preferred enemy was powerful, but it is what made that book playable at higher levels. That was the balancing factor for everything being priced for 4th edition, and unnecessary restrictions on choices.

Now with it being removed (for what reason?) BT are now just an army that pays too much for everything. Half of a Blood Angel book can get rage, yet everything they have is updated prices, better characters, and blanket FNP. Rage only works if you can get the charge, unlike preferred enemy which happens all the time. Which they can no longer do out of the rhinos that they pay too much for.

Against a competent opponent, the only times Rage can be a sure thing is Assault marines (which BA have in spades, and BT pay too much for), Bikes (which BT pay too much for), or Land Raiders for assault ramps.

Their heavy hitting CC unit (Assault termies with LC) took a huge hit. While most Marine players already were using TH/SS, most Templar players had a mix, usually with more LCs. Now those LCs don't ignore all armor, and also don't get an initiative bump from FC.

But wait, you get FC! Oh yeah, they nerfed that too.

Another loss is with their old rule of no psykers and the new ally rules. While they haven't ever been able to ally with them, psykers were less of a presence in older editions. Now with allies they will be all over the place, and the one codex BT can ally with that can take psykers (Grey Knights) are not battle brothers.

The change to tank hunters is arguable, but now all those people who scoured for cyclones will now want Assault cannons on their terminators.

The BT did get nerfed, and those that say "well PE was too powerful and this is how they should be" haven't looked at the prices inside that codex lately.

I considered PE = the tax I paid on all comparable units. Rage is not worth that tax.

They did take a nerf, but they're still playable. I'm working on rebuilding mine now, both a 2500pt biker army, and a Black Tide army-both with large amounts of ICs and plenty of hitting power. Also a few mini lascannon squads in the homefield. Throwing 84 power armored bodies onto the field in 2500 pts, with tank busting, near army-wide fearless, rage, a 5+ to discount any spells directed at them and wound allocation shenanigans, I think they're playable. Time will tell...

culsandar wrote:Templars absolutely caught nerf, although not as bad as some armies (Kan Wall got reamed).

5th Edition Preferred enemy was powerful, but it is what made that book playable at higher levels. That was the balancing factor for everything being priced for 4th edition, and unnecessary restrictions on choices.

Now with it being removed (for what reason?) BT are now just an army that pays too much for everything. Half of a Blood Angel book can get rage, yet everything they have is updated prices, better characters, and blanket FNP. Rage only works if you can get the charge, unlike preferred enemy which happens all the time. Which they can no longer do out of the rhinos that they pay too much for.

Against a competent opponent, the only times Rage can be a sure thing is Assault marines (which BA have in spades, and BT pay too much for), Bikes (which BT pay too much for), or Land Raiders for assault ramps.

Their heavy hitting CC unit (Assault termies with LC) took a huge hit. While most Marine players already were using TH/SS, most Templar players had a mix, usually with more LCs. Now those LCs don't ignore all armor, and also don't get an initiative bump from FC.

But wait, you get FC! Oh yeah, they nerfed that too.

Another loss is with their old rule of no psykers and the new ally rules. While they haven't ever been able to ally with them, psykers were less of a presence in older editions. Now with allies they will be all over the place, and the one codex BT can ally with that can take psykers (Grey Knights) are not battle brothers.

The change to tank hunters is arguable, but now all those people who scoured for cyclones will now want Assault cannons on their terminators.

The BT did get nerfed, and those that say "well PE was too powerful and this is how they should be" haven't looked at the prices inside that codex lately.

I considered PE = the tax I paid on all comparable units. Rage is not worth that tax.

I totally agree with you man. This isn't fair for the templars. I hope our next codexes changes things.

timetowaste85 wrote:I do think that blob squads of BT got hit hard, but how about those bikes I mentioned before? 12" move, 2D6 charge, throw chaplains in and have +2 attacks for charge, plus re-rolls. Small squads that hit hard and ignore the panic checks for each wound caused. I do wanna try it. The list I'm thinking is as follows at 2500-tell me whatcha all think:
Emperor's Champion 140pts
Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds
Master of Sanctity 175pts
Bike
Storm Shield
Artificer Armor
Master of Sanctity 175pts
Bike
Storm Shield
Artificer Armor

Crusader Squad 86pts
Plasma Gun
Crusader Squad 86pts
Plasma Gun

Tech Marine 180pts
Servo Harness
Bike
Lightning Claw/Storm Shield
Terminator Honors
Tech Marine 180pts
Servo Harness
Bike
Lightning Claw/Storm Shield
Terminator Honors
Tech Marine 180pts
Servo Harness
Bike
Lightning Claw/Storm Shield
Terminator Honors

Bikers x5 251pts
Attack Bike: Multi-melta
Power Sword x2
Plasma Gun
Bikers x5 251pts
Attack Bike: Multi-melta
Power Sword x2
Plasma Gun
Bikers x5 251pts
Attack Bike: Multi-melta
Power Sword x2
Plasma Gun

Detachment: Captain 345pts
Bike
Artificer Armor
Lightning Claw/Combi-Plasma
Command Squad: Bikes
Storm Shields x2
Power Sword
Power Axe
Melta Gun x2
Detachment: Scouts x10 150pts

Detachment: Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta 50pts

The Problem with Templar bikes is, that they dont have Boltpistols, so they only have one attack (3 on charge with AAC). So it makes sense to give them power lances, however they still suck without the extra attack.

Ugh. That's a bummer. I was about to offer a rebuttal to your statement, but I looked it up and you're right-I thought the FAQ gave them a weapon option in addition to their pistols, not that they didn't have pistols to be taken away to begin with. Whoops. Then I guess they get power lances and/or cheap plasma guns. Works well that way too.

Considering the Codex says "may exchange their Bolt Pistol" I'd say they have one, even if it's been FAQ'd to "take one of the following".

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Considering the Codex says "may exchange their Bolt Pistol" I'd say they have one, even if it's been FAQ'd to "take one of the following".

Would be wonderful, but they just have none in their wargear. And the rephrasing by the FaQ didnt helped the case.

To any who are interested in the Typhoon Missile Launcher: It has not been nerfed.

I would like to put this issue to rest. This is an error in the English codex. In every other language version there is an entry for page 39 and 48 which clearly indicates that, yes, the Black Templars Typhoon is still a Heavy 2 Missile Launcher, and yes, this is an error only. This is definitive proof, unless non-English speaking Typhoons are supposed to be somehow better??

Praise the Emperor.

I fully expect this oversight to be corrected in the next version of the FAQ. The same stat line is also included in the other language versions of the FAQ. If you don't believe me, look for yourself:

German:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420325a_Black_Templars_FAQ_6Ed_v1.pdf

And the most positive proof:

French:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420374a_FAQ_Black_Templars_6%C3%A9d_version_1_0_-_juillet_2012

Which was updated on the 2nd of July, making it much more recent than the English codex. If it was an error with the other language FAQs, wouldn't they have fixed it with the newer updates?

NO! Rejoice my brother Templars!

My thoughts are that we won't be seeing a codex for Black Templars for much longer, they don't get their own showcase in the models section of the new rulebook.

Also on page 187 it shows examples of SM chapters, Ultramarines (vanilla codex), Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Grey Knights all get a paragraph but no Black Templars, instead we have Imperial Fists.

To any who are interested in the Typhoon Missile Launcher: It has not been nerfed.

I would like to put this issue to rest. This is an error in the English codex. In every other language version there is an entry for page 39 and 48 which clearly indicates that, yes, the Black Templars Typhoon is still a Heavy 2 Missile Launcher, and yes, this is an error only. This is definitive proof, unless non-English speaking Typhoons are supposed to be somehow better??

Praise the Emperor.

I fully expect this oversight to be corrected in the next version of the FAQ. The same stat line is also included in the other language versions of the FAQ. If you don't believe me, look for yourself:

German:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420325a_Black_Templars_FAQ_6Ed_v1.pdf

And the most positive proof:

French:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420374a_FAQ_Black_Templars_6%C3%A9d_version_1_0_-_juillet_2012

Which was updated on the 2nd of July, making it much more recent than the English codex. If it was an error with the other language FAQs, wouldn't they have fixed it with the newer updates?

Well in the ENGLISH FAQ says we dont get that. I am not sure how we are going to use a french, or German FAQ in the USA. I have a friend who has an e-mail in to GW about this. As of right now the Black Templar Typhoon ML is Heavy 1. I hate to say that, but I need proof proving this otherwise.....

J99Pwrangler wrote:

To any who are interested in the Typhoon Missile Launcher: It has not been nerfed.

I would like to put this issue to rest. This is an error in the English codex. In every other language version there is an entry for page 39 and 48 which clearly indicates that, yes, the Black Templars Typhoon is still a Heavy 2 Missile Launcher, and yes, this is an error only. This is definitive proof, unless non-English speaking Typhoons are supposed to be somehow better??

Praise the Emperor.

I fully expect this oversight to be corrected in the next version of the FAQ. The same stat line is also included in the other language versions of the FAQ. If you don't believe me, look for yourself:

German:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420325a_Black_Templars_FAQ_6Ed_v1.pdf

And the most positive proof:

French:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420374a_FAQ_Black_Templars_6%C3%A9d_version_1_0_-_juillet_2012

Which was updated on the 2nd of July, making it much more recent than the English codex. If it was an error with the other language FAQs, wouldn't they have fixed it with the newer updates?

Well in the ENGLISH FAQ says we dont get that. I am not sure how we are going to use a french, or German FAQ in the USA. I have a friend who has an e-mail in to GW about this. As of right now the Black Templar Typhoon ML is Heavy 1. I hate to say that, but I need proof proving this otherwise.....

Don't forget: Heavy 1 S5 AP5 Twin-linked Blast. No Krak missiles in the Codex.

My thoughts are that we won't be seeing a codex for Black Templars for much longer, they don't get their own showcase in the models section of the new rulebook.

Also on page 187 it shows examples of SM chapters, Ultramarines (vanilla codex), Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Grey Knights all get a paragraph but no Black Templars, instead we have Imperial Fists.

Thats the first thing I looked for as well in the BRB. We have some spots where we popped up in there, but barely enough to make a foot print. We are mentioned in some of the fluff, and theres a picture of some templars. But thats about it... A lot of people think we are getting rolled back in to the C:SM. I dont believe that at all, or at least until i see that happen. We we get our due, maybe by the end of 2012/ beginning of 2013. We all know DA will be here soon, then its only the Templars left to update.........