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Hey there,

Me and a friend have been discussing this for a little while now and does using the Tau's markerlights versus a flyer actually help?

In the Rulebook FAQ it says that Tau markerlights don't affect a units BS but since the markerlight needs to hit for a seeker to be fired, would that still fire at BS5 or BS1?

Thanks in advance

It would still be fired at BS1 The flier section states shots against fliers can only be resolved as snapshots unless the model or weapon has the skyfire special rule. As nothing states seeker missiles have skyfire it can only be fired as snapshot. Doesnt match the fluff i know, but its what the current rules and FAQ state.

Tau FAQ says BS 5.

Mechnomancer wrote:
Tau FAQ says BS 5.

Correct, it is fired at BS5, but resolved at BS1.

Mech your referring to where it states firing seeker missiles off of a shaken vehicle are fired at normal BS5. It states nothing about firing at fliers in the FAQ.


Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/471748.page

Same arguments, same reasonings. Long story short, it fires at BS1 b/c it is RESOLVED AT BS1, regardless of what your BS "counts as"

Don't think that linked thread agrees with you. There were alot of arguments for it working the other way. I'd say this is still firmly unresolved.

Please don't use all caps for emphasis it is generally considered shouting/rude.

Nope, it is not un resolved at all, see the rulebook FAQ

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

I posted the link to show this has already been hashed out somewhere else by many of us "regulars". It does boil down to resolved at vs. other modifiers. Resolved at > other modifiers unless stated otherwise as resolved at dosent care what modifiers you have, its simply the way the shot is resolved.

MarkyMark wrote:
Nope, it is not un resolved at all, see the rulebook FAQ

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Those are effects that add to the BS of a unit. In 40Ks order of operations additions are dealt with before you resolve special rules that set the attribute at a set number (ie BS 1 for snap shots or BS 5 for Seeker Missiles).

So the answer is that both rules apply, so we look at Basic versus Advanced. The Basic Rule is BS 1 on Snap Shots. The Advanced rule is BS 5 Seeker Missiles. Advanced trumps Basic, so BS 5 Seeker Missiles versus flyers.

Now, keep in mind the Markerlight still has to hit at BS 1 before the Seeker Missile even gets a chance. So the end result is that the odds of landing a Seeker Missile hit on a flyer are actually worse than trying to shoot the Flyer at BS 1 when you need to land the Markerlight first So it's not this is a ZOMG IT'S BROKEN FLYER KILLER THAT MEANS I CAN'T PLAY MY FLYERS!!!1!!1!01. It just means that landing a Seeker happens 5/36ths of the time instead of 1/36th of the time.

If I were using flyers against Tau I'd be more concerned about twin-linked Railguns that hit 11/36th of the time or twin-linked missile pods that land a hit 11/18 times. Being able to field 3 of those in every Heavy or Elite slot gives some pretty decent Air Defence for an army lacking Skyfire.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
It does boil down to resolved at vs. other modifiers. Resolved at > other modifiers unless stated otherwise as resolved at dosent care what modifiers you have, its simply the way the shot is resolved.

Just as a refernce. Resolved at wins out no matter what modifiers or indeed, any other BS you fire with.

Jefffar wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Nope, it is not un resolved at all, see the rulebook FAQ

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Those are effects that add to the BS of a unit. In 40Ks order of operations additions are dealt with before you resolve special rules that set the attribute at a set number (ie BS 1 for snap shots or BS 5 for Seeker Missiles).

So the answer is that both rules apply, so we look at Basic versus Advanced. The Basic Rule is BS 1 on Snap Shots. The Advanced rule is BS 5 Seeker Missiles. Advanced trumps Basic, so BS 5 Seeker Missiles versus flyers.

Now, keep in mind the Markerlight still has to hit at BS 1 before the Seeker Missile even gets a chance. So the end result is that the odds of landing a Seeker Missile hit on a flyer are actually worse than trying to shoot the Flyer at BS 1 when you need to land the Markerlight first So it's not this is a ZOMG IT'S BROKEN FLYER KILLER THAT MEANS I CAN'T PLAY MY FLYERS!!!1!!1!01. It just means that landing a Seeker happens 5/36ths of the time instead of 1/36th of the time.

If I were using flyers against Tau I'd be more concerned about twin-linked Railguns that hit 11/36th of the time or twin-linked missile pods that land a hit 11/18 times. Being able to field 3 of those in every Heavy or Elite slot gives some pretty decent Air Defence for an army lacking Skyfire.

I dont pay Tau and do not know the rules for seeker missiles, so forgive me if I am wrong. But what is the rule for snap shot, basic or special as you call it both?, IMO all shots at flyers must be resolved as snap shots unless using skyfire, it is pretty clear cut.

Is there one other weapon or power in the game that does not have to snap shot at a flyer without skyfire?

It's resolved at BS1 as being BS5 would be a modifer to the BS1 and is explicitly disallowed by the FAQ.

MarkyMark wrote:
Nope, it is not un resolved at all, see the rulebook FAQ

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.



Those are effects that add to the BS of a unit. In 40Ks order of operations additions are dealt with before you resolve special rules that set the attribute at a set number (ie BS 1 for snap shots or BS 5 for Seeker Missiles).

So the answer is that both rules apply, so we look at Basic versus Advanced. The Basic Rule is BS 1 on Snap Shots. The Advanced rule is BS 5 Seeker Missiles. Advanced trumps Basic, so BS 5 Seeker Missiles versus flyers.

wrong, sorry. re-read the FAQ question. It clearly states ANY modifier, which the seeker missiles would count as it modifies the BS to a 5 for the shot, and the snap shot rule says BS1 regardless. What you are implying is that snap shots are considered a "set modifier" which usually overrides a additive such as the markerlights. However, the seeker missiles are a set modifier as well, but the snap shot rule is a special rule that doesn't modify the BS of the shooter, just at what the BS is resolved at. I do agree that seeker missiles according to fluff should have the skyfire( and the interceptor) rule as well, but we can only wait for a FAQ or new codex (sometime next year if you believe the rumors)

Jefffar wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Nope, it is not un resolved at all, see the rulebook FAQ

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Those are effects that add to the BS of a unit. In 40Ks order of operations additions are dealt with before you resolve special rules that set the attribute at a set number (ie BS 1 for snap shots or BS 5 for Seeker Missiles).

So the answer is that both rules apply, so we look at Basic versus Advanced. The Basic Rule is BS 1 on Snap Shots. The Advanced rule is BS 5 Seeker Missiles. Advanced trumps Basic, so BS 5 Seeker Missiles versus flyers.

Now, keep in mind the Markerlight still has to hit at BS 1 before the Seeker Missile even gets a chance. So the end result is that the odds of landing a Seeker Missile hit on a flyer are actually worse than trying to shoot the Flyer at BS 1 when you need to land the Markerlight first So it's not this is a ZOMG IT'S BROKEN FLYER KILLER THAT MEANS I CAN'T PLAY MY FLYERS!!!1!!1!01. It just means that landing a Seeker happens 5/36ths of the time instead of 1/36th of the time.

If I were using flyers against Tau I'd be more concerned about twin-linked Railguns that hit 11/36th of the time or twin-linked missile pods that land a hit 11/18 times. Being able to field 3 of those in every Heavy or Elite slot gives some pretty decent Air Defence for an army lacking Skyfire.

so you're trying to tell me that if you hit with a marker light, you than can modify the bs of a seeker missle to bs 5 and fire it at the flyer. You are quite incorrect. The bs5 of the seeker is it's modified state, you are not allowed to use modifiers when making a snapshot.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Nope, it is not un resolved at all, see the rulebook FAQ

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Those are effects that add to the BS of a unit. In 40Ks order of operations additions are dealt with before you resolve special rules that set the attribute at a set number (ie BS 1 for snap shots or BS 5 for Seeker Missiles).

So the answer is that both rules apply, so we look at Basic versus Advanced. The Basic Rule is BS 1 on Snap Shots. The Advanced rule is BS 5 Seeker Missiles. Advanced trumps Basic, so BS 5 Seeker Missiles versus flyers.

Now, keep in mind the Markerlight still has to hit at BS 1 before the Seeker Missile even gets a chance. So the end result is that the odds of landing a Seeker Missile hit on a flyer are actually worse than trying to shoot the Flyer at BS 1 when you need to land the Markerlight first So it's not this is a ZOMG IT'S BROKEN FLYER KILLER THAT MEANS I CAN'T PLAY MY FLYERS!!!1!!1!01. It just means that landing a Seeker happens 5/36ths of the time instead of 1/36th of the time.

If I were using flyers against Tau I'd be more concerned about twin-linked Railguns that hit 11/36th of the time or twin-linked missile pods that land a hit 11/18 times. Being able to field 3 of those in every Heavy or Elite slot gives some pretty decent Air Defence for an army lacking Skyfire.

so you're trying to tell me that if you hit with a marker light, you than can modify the bs of a seeker missle to bs 5 and fire it at the flyer. You are quite incorrect. The bs5 of the seeker is it's modified state, you are not allowed to use modifiers when making a snapshot.

Actually, Seeker Missiles ALWAYS fire at BS5 even at ground targets. That is for all intents and purposes the BS of the Seeker.

Also, since the Seeker Missile is just one of the (few) useful effects that can be used on a flyer, the other being reducing cover (from Evading), I would argue that Seeker Hits On 2+ as it an effect of the Markerlight token.

FenixZero wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Nope, it is not un resolved at all, see the rulebook FAQ

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Those are effects that add to the BS of a unit. In 40Ks order of operations additions are dealt with before you resolve special rules that set the attribute at a set number (ie BS 1 for snap shots or BS 5 for Seeker Missiles).

So the answer is that both rules apply, so we look at Basic versus Advanced. The Basic Rule is BS 1 on Snap Shots. The Advanced rule is BS 5 Seeker Missiles. Advanced trumps Basic, so BS 5 Seeker Missiles versus flyers.

Now, keep in mind the Markerlight still has to hit at BS 1 before the Seeker Missile even gets a chance. So the end result is that the odds of landing a Seeker Missile hit on a flyer are actually worse than trying to shoot the Flyer at BS 1 when you need to land the Markerlight first So it's not this is a ZOMG IT'S BROKEN FLYER KILLER THAT MEANS I CAN'T PLAY MY FLYERS!!!1!!1!01. It just means that landing a Seeker happens 5/36ths of the time instead of 1/36th of the time.

If I were using flyers against Tau I'd be more concerned about twin-linked Railguns that hit 11/36th of the time or twin-linked missile pods that land a hit 11/18 times. Being able to field 3 of those in every Heavy or Elite slot gives some pretty decent Air Defence for an army lacking Skyfire.

so you're trying to tell me that if you hit with a marker light, you than can modify the bs of a seeker missle to bs 5 and fire it at the flyer. You are quite incorrect. The bs5 of the seeker is it's modified state, you are not allowed to use modifiers when making a snapshot.

Actually, Seeker Missiles ALWAYS fire at BS5 even at ground targets. That is for all intents and purposes the BS of the Seeker.

Also, since the Seeker Missile is just one of the (few) useful effects that can be used on a flyer, the other being reducing cover (from Evading), I would argue that Seeker Hits On 2+ as it an effect of the Markerlight token.

Except in order to fire at a flyer you fire at BS1; Snapshot, unless you have skyfire. The seeker missile has to roll to hit still, as such it will need a 6.

Basic Rules are those that apply generally and are found in the rule book. IE the Hard to Hit rule for Flyers.

Advanced Rules are those that apply to only specific models and are found in Codexes. IE the rules that make it impossible to fire a Seeker Missile without expending a Markerlight Token but make said Seeker Missile BS 5.

Think of it this way, the Markerlight fires at the flyer with BS 1 due to the Hard to Hit rule like normal. The Seeker Missile then fires at the Markerlight Token instead of the Flyer, striking at BS 5 and the effects of the hit are then resolved against the flyer.

Again, mathematically you have to roll a 6+ before you get the chance to roll a 2+, so this isn't exactly a flyer killer weapon. I know I won't be counting on it to land any hits.

Jefffar wrote:
Basic Rules are those that apply generally and are found in the rule book. IE the Hard to Hit rule for Flyers.

Advanced Rules are those that apply to only specific models and are found in Codexes. IE the rules that make it impossible to fire a Seeker Missile without expending a Markerlight Token but make said Seeker Missile BS 5.

Yep, and snap shots may only be fired at BS1 unless you have skyfire. Do Seeker Missles have skyfire? No so they fire at flyers at BS1

Snap Shot is a basic rule. Seeker Missiles are an advanced rule. Advanced trumps Basic. This is why seeker missiles are ruled to fire at BS 5 when snap shooting in the Tau FAQ.

Jefffar wrote:
Snap Shot is a basic rule. Seeker Missiles are an advanced rule. Advanced trumps Basic. This is why seeker missiles are ruled to fire at BS 5 when snap shooting in the Tau FAQ.

While that might be the case, that faq is for stunned vehicles.

Skyfire or lack there of is more specific than your seeker

FAQ is for snap shots, stunned vehicles where an example.

I don't actually have a dog in this fight, nor do I know which answer is correct so *shrug*

Jefffar wrote:
Basic Rules are those that apply generally and are found in the rule book. IE the Hard to Hit rule for Flyers.

Advanced Rules are those that apply to only specific models and are found in Codexes. IE the rules that make it impossible to fire a Seeker Missile without expending a Markerlight Token but make said Seeker Missile BS 5.

Think of it this way, the Markerlight fires at the flyer with BS 1 due to the Hard to Hit rule like normal. The Seeker Missile then fires at the Markerlight Token instead of the Flyer, striking at BS 5 and the effects of the hit are then resolved against the flyer.

Again, mathematically you have to roll a 6+ before you get the chance to roll a 2+, so this isn't exactly a flyer killer weapon. I know I won't be counting on it to land any hits.

So codex trumps rule book, so why dont the modifers like marker lights and the others listed in the FAQ trump the rule book, as they meet your requirements of a advanced rule, they are for specific models and found in codex's, modifers or not they meet your requirement.

Drager wrote:
FAQ is for snap shots, stunned vehicles where an example.

I don't actually have a dog in this fight, nor do I know which answer is correct so *shrug*

Firing snap shots and resolved as snap shots are two different beasts entirely. Oddly enough. Time for coffee.

MarkyMark wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Basic Rules are those that apply generally and are found in the rule book. IE the Hard to Hit rule for Flyers.

Advanced Rules are those that apply to only specific models and are found in Codexes. IE the rules that make it impossible to fire a Seeker Missile without expending a Markerlight Token but make said Seeker Missile BS 5.

Think of it this way, the Markerlight fires at the flyer with BS 1 due to the Hard to Hit rule like normal. The Seeker Missile then fires at the Markerlight Token instead of the Flyer, striking at BS 5 and the effects of the hit are then resolved against the flyer.

Again, mathematically you have to roll a 6+ before you get the chance to roll a 2+, so this isn't exactly a flyer killer weapon. I know I won't be counting on it to land any hits.

So codex trumps rule book, so why dont the modifers like marker lights and the others listed in the FAQ trump the rule book, as they meet your requirements of a advanced rule, they are for specific models and found in codex's, modifers or not they meet your requirement.

Because of where they go in the math. The Markerlights go in the middle of the math the modify BS. Snap Shot and the 'static' BS of a Seeker Missile, happen at the same time, at the very end of the math to calculate BS.

FenixZero wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Basic Rules are those that apply generally and are found in the rule book. IE the Hard to Hit rule for Flyers.

Advanced Rules are those that apply to only specific models and are found in Codexes. IE the rules that make it impossible to fire a Seeker Missile without expending a Markerlight Token but make said Seeker Missile BS 5.

Think of it this way, the Markerlight fires at the flyer with BS 1 due to the Hard to Hit rule like normal. The Seeker Missile then fires at the Markerlight Token instead of the Flyer, striking at BS 5 and the effects of the hit are then resolved against the flyer.

Again, mathematically you have to roll a 6+ before you get the chance to roll a 2+, so this isn't exactly a flyer killer weapon. I know I won't be counting on it to land any hits.

So codex trumps rule book, so why dont the modifers like marker lights and the others listed in the FAQ trump the rule book, as they meet your requirements of a advanced rule, they are for specific models and found in codex's, modifers or not they meet your requirement.

Because of where they go in the math. The Markerlights go in the middle of the math the modify BS. Snap Shot and the 'static' BS of a Seeker Missile, happen at the same time, at the very end of the math to calculate BS.

Regardless of where the math comes in you cannot shoot at a flyer at anything other then snap shot BS1 without skyfire.

Would it be right to say a Seeker Missile is not actually a model? Also, would it be right to make the assumption that since it is only fired due to a Markerlight hit that it is unique in the fact that the vehicle (which has no control over it) doesn't fire it and therefore a Seeker Missile would be immune to any effects of Snap Shots, etc because it doesn't actually have a BS stat to reduce in any scenario? No stat = No modifiers.

As the Tau Codex says: "the vehicle carrying the the seeker missiles has no control over them and cannot fire them itself."
Meanwhile in the Markerlight part of the codex A markerlight "Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit (this being a flyer in this case). This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5".

Codex trumps BRB doesn't it?

So my point being, something that doesn't have a BS stat per se, cannot be subjected by a BS modifier.

Mega_Nob wrote:
Would it be right to say a Seeker Missile is not actually a model? Also, would it be right to make the assumption that since it is only fired due to a Markerlight hit that it is unique in the fact that the vehicle (which has no control over it) doesn't fire it and therefore a Seeker Missile would be immune to any effects of Snap Shots, etc because it doesn't actually have a BS stat to reduce in any scenario? No stat = No modifiers.

As the Tau Codex says: "the vehicle carrying the the seeker missiles has no control over them and cannot fire them itself."
Meanwhile in the Markerlight part of the codex A markerlight "Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit (this being a flyer in this case). This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5".

Codex trumps BRB doesn't it?

So my point being, something that doesn't have a BS stat per se, cannot be subjected by a BS modifier.

Actually it having a 5 is a stat, if it can have a stat it would imply it has a 0 generaly see Zero lv characteristics. Going from a 0 to 5 is a modifier shown on pg 2.

I dont think it has a stat:
"Resolved at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5"
isn't the same as
"Has a Ballistic Skill of 5"?

So the Codex is saying it hits on a 2+ in all situations where something has been hit by a markerlight, just my 2 cents.

Mega_Nob wrote:
I dont think it has a stat:
"Resolved at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5"
isn't the same as
"Has a Ballistic Skill of 5"?

So the Codex is saying it hits on a 2+ in all situations where something has been hit by a markerlight, just my 2 cents.

Right well than Beings it's only an assumed BS of 5 than I guess it doesn't hit on 2's as only a BS of 5 hits on 2s right?