Tau Markerlights Vs. Flyers

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**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

rigeld2 wrote:
Drager wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Drager wrote:
Does resolving as a snapshot reduce your ballistic skill?

No.

Does making a snapshot reduce your ballistic skill?

Yes.

Why are these answers inconsistent? (trying to follow the argument here, not making a point)

Because making a snap shot is not the same as resolving a normal shot as a snap shot.
In the latter case you're making a normal shot, but to resolve it as a snap shot you must use BS1. Your ballistic skill is still 5, so there's no reduction.

Alright so if you resolve one and you're bs 5
You roll to hit as normal, lets say you roll a 4.
You pseudo hit, now resolve it as a snap-shot.
It's not a 6 so it didn't hit.

At least that's my take on it after Rigelds explanation.

**rigeld2**

Essentially yes.

**Mega_Nob**

If you roll a 4 at BS5 you hit.

Going back to my point about firing a seeker, technically it isn't actually fired by a model, vehicle or troop. It is an automated shot that homes in on a markerlight, therefore has no BS to modify at all. The roll to hit uses an "assumed" BS of 5 because it is seeking a markerlight and is unerringly accutrate, also to incorporate the rule where 1 is always a failure. In this case again I would say it is the seeker malfunctioning in some way.

Seeker Missile, isn't fired per se, but seeks the markerlight.

Apologies for dragging the Codex up again but it does say:

"Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit *((being a flyer in this case))*. This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5"

Normally in ALL REGARDS, be it a snap shot or a shot at a flyer, at BS5.

**Jefffar**

The one thing I don't get is that we are arguing i a weapon system will have a 5/36 chance of hitting or 1/36 chance of hitting.

Other weapons shooting at flyers hit 1/6 times, or 6/36 times. So what you really are arguing about is if a weapon should have a worse than usual chance to hit a flyer or no chance to hit a flyer.

Even though the rules as written and the FAQs support BS 5 seeker missile when Snap Shooting, really, do you feel the need to win so much that you need to make an already crappy weapon system even worse?

**DeathReaper**

I think you might not understand what "normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5" means.

Normally can you hit a flyer without resolving the shot as a snap shot?

**megatrons2nd**

Funny, Reaper, you use treat as saved as not a save, but you counter assumed BS5 as BS5. "Treat as" and "assumed" are interchangeable. Read it as: assumed to be saved, or Treat as BS5. You are using the opposite argument in two separate cases, that have the same effect on the wording. Which way do you plan on arguing your case? If treat as saved for FNP can bypass the Removed from play with no saves of any kind for the Hexrifle, than the assumed BS5 should work VS fliers. Conversely if a seeker missile can't hit a flier with it's assumed BS5, than FNP can't be used against a Hexrifle.

The FAQ already altered the Snapshots with Seeker Missiles, so it is not resolved normally in all regards when it comes to snap shots.

**rigeld2**

Jefffar wrote:
Even though the rules as written and the FAQs support BS 5 seeker missile when Snap Shooting, really, do you feel the need to win so much that you need to make an already crappy weapon system even worse?

It's not about feeling the need to win. Please don't assign a negative bias where none exists - its a poor way to argue.

It's entirely about understanding the rules. And while the FAQ supports BS5 while making a snap shot, you're not making a snap shot.

**40k-noob**

Again, the vehicle is NOT firing the Seeker Missile. The seeker Missile is mounted on the vehicle but is a remote weapon and is Fired by the Marker Light user, that is why it is not affected by Stunned/Shaken result and thus is not making a Snap Shot.

A Seeker Missile is making a regular shooting attack and can a regular shooting attack hit a Flyer? No.

Only Snap Shots can hit Flyers.

**megatrons2nd**

Yes and The Tau FAQ allows the Seeker missile snap shot at normal at it's assumed BS5. Your point is lost when the two relevant FAQ's contradict each other. As I remember it, the more specific entry takes precedence. Meaning the Tau version supersedes the Rulebook one.

Quote from Tau Empire Codex, Markerlight Entry first point: "To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5."

Quote from Tau Empire FAQ:

"Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5."

The Normally in all regards is removed for the Snap Fire Ballistic Skill 1 issue. Why do you keep adding it back in? The Vehicle does fire it, even if it was a snap shot it is resolved at BS5.

**40k-noob**

megatrons2nd wrote:
Yes and The Tau FAQ allows the Seeker missile snap shot at normal at it's assumed BS5. Your point is lost when the two relevant FAQ's contradict each other. As I remember it, the more specific entry takes precedence. Meaning the Tau version supersedes the Rulebook one.

Quote from Tau Empire Codex, Markerlight Entry first point: "To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5."

Quote from Tau Empire FAQ:

"Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5."

The Normally in all regards is removed for the Snap Fire Ballistic Skill 1 issue. Why do you keep adding it back in? The Vehicle does fire it, even if it was a snap shot it is resolved at BS5.

You should re-read the Tau codex entry for Seeker Missiles. It says that any unit with a Markerlight can call for a Seeker missile salvo.....the vehicle carrying the seeker missile has no control over them and cannot launch them itself. The mechanism is remote and responds to the Markerlight user.

The vehicle may be Stunned or Shaken but it doesn't matter because the vehicle is not firing the Seeker Missile and thus not making a SNAPSHOT.

**DeathReaper**

megatrons2nd wrote:
Funny, Reaper, you use treat as saved as not a save, but you counter assumed BS5 as BS5. "Treat as" and "assumed" are interchangeable. Read it as: assumed to be saved, or Treat as BS5. You are using the opposite argument in two separate cases, that have the same effect on the wording. Which way do you plan on arguing your case? If treat as saved for FNP can bypass the Removed from play with no saves of any kind for the Hexrifle, than the assumed BS5 should work VS fliers. Conversely if a seeker missile can't hit a flier with it's assumed BS5, than FNP can't be used against a Hexrifle.

That is not the same situation at all.

Yes in both cases we pretend the condition is true, however 'assume it has a BS of 5' is different language than 'Treated as saved'.

The situations are not comparable.

"This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5."

"Normally in all regards". That means if you resolve it as a snap shot then you need a 6 to hit, as that is the norm for resolving as a snap shot.

**juraigamer**

Shot is fired at an assumed BS 5, and this is resolved normally, meaning on a 2+ you hit and wound and ect.

Seeker missiles aren't modified BS, they are set BS. So in theory, you declare the usage of seeker missile on a flier, which sets the BS to 1 for firing, but the seeker missile says to treat it as BS 5, so you do.

Keep in mind the seeker missile is firing it's self but a markerlight is required to fire the missile.

**DeathReaper**

juraigamer wrote:
Shot is fired at an assumed BS 5, and this is resolved normally, meaning on a 2+ you hit and wound and ect.

For non fliers that is correct.

Seeker missiles aren't modified BS, they are set BS. So in theory, you declare the usage of seeker missile on a flier, which sets the BS to 1 for firing, but the seeker missile says to treat it as BS 5, so you do.

Incorrect, the shot at a flyer is resolved as a snapshot, so even if it sets your BS to 5 you still resolve the shot as a snap shot at a flyer.

No different than a Dev squad trying to use a Signum to get BS 5 while shooting a flyer. that does not work either, for the same reasons.

**paidinfull**

40k-noob wrote:
megatrons2nd wrote:
Yes and The Tau FAQ allows the Seeker missile snap shot at normal at it's assumed BS5. Your point is lost when the two relevant FAQ's contradict each other. As I remember it, the more specific entry takes precedence. Meaning the Tau version supersedes the Rulebook one.

Quote from Tau Empire Codex, Markerlight Entry first point: "To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5."

Quote from Tau Empire FAQ:

"Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5."

The Normally in all regards is removed for the Snap Fire Ballistic Skill 1 issue. Why do you keep adding it back in? The Vehicle does fire it, even if it was a snap shot it is resolved at BS5.

You should re-read the Tau codex entry for Seeker Missiles. It says that any unit with a Markerlight can call for a Seeker missile salvo.....the vehicle carrying the seeker missile has no control over them and cannot launch them itself. The mechanism is remote and responds to the Markerlight user.

The vehicle may be Stunned or Shaken but it doesn't matter because the vehicle is not firing the Seeker Missile and thus not making a SNAPSHOT.

Seriously? This discussion is silly. It's 100% covered in the FAQ.

p31 Codex:Tau Empire
Seeker Missiles
Ordinarily, the vehicle carrying the seeker missiles has no control over them and cannot launch them itself. The mechanism is remote and responds only to markerlight users. The missiles may always be fired, each at different targets if relevnat, regardless of the distance the vehicle has moved or whether it has fired any other weapons. They may also be fired if the has suffered a Crew Stunned vehicle damage result.

p29 Codex: Tau Empire
To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570052a_Tau_Empire_v1.1.pdf
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

The vehicle is firing the Seeker Missile. It's BS is reduced to 1, because of a snap shot, however, due to this FAQ entry the SM is fired at BS5. The example does not need to be all inclusive.

Seeker Missiles fire at Fliers @ BS5.

**DeathReaper**

Again there is a difference between firing at BS1 and the shot being resolved at BS1.

**paidinfull**

DeathReaper wrote:
Again there is a difference between firing at BS1 and the shot being resolved at BS1.

Again. You are 100% wrong.

p80
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.

What is the Snap Shot rule?

Snap Shots p 13 BRB
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

Was the vehicle's Ballistic Skill reduced to 1?
Yes.

FAQ kicks in.

You're trying to come up with a semantic BS argument that just plain doesn't work. For starters, in order to "resolve a Snap Shot" you have to follow the Snap Shot rule, which clearly reduces the vehicle/model's BS. Secondly, the odds of shooting down a flier with a seeker missile are terrible. Typically you'll see around 12 ML in a Tau army. That means they'll score 2 ML hits putting 2x counters on a single flier. Most fliers are AV11, meaning the S8 SM will need a 4+ to score a penetrating hit. It's AP3 so it doesn't get any bonuses. That means 2x units of (6) pathfinders has a 14% chance of taking down a flier. 9% if it Evades. You're absolutely ridiculous if you're not only going to have an argument over odds like that, but a flawed one at that.

Seeker Missiles fire at Fliers at BS5. However, in order to even fire the Seeker Missile you first need a marker light token. The odds of a single markerlight & seeker missile combo bringing down a flier is 0.7%

**DeathReaper**

paidinfull wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Again there is a difference between firing at BS1 and the shot being resolved at BS1.

Again. You are 100% wrong.

p80
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.

You may want to read what you wrote, and rethink it.

**paidinfull**

DeathReaper wrote:
paidinfull wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Again there is a difference between firing at BS1 and the shot being resolved at BS1.

Again. You are 100% wrong.

p80
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.

You may want to read what you wrote, and rethink it.

You can't be serious, are you?

How does one "resolve a Snap Shot"?

If it worked as you suggest, which it clearly doesn't, then Skyfire would do nothing.
Because the model is "firing with it's normal BS" but the shot is "being ***resolved*** as a Snap Shot".

Absurd.

**40k-noob**

paidinfull wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
paidinfull wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Again there is a difference between firing at BS1 and the shot being resolved at BS1.

Again. You are 100% wrong.

p80
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.

You may want to read what you wrote, and rethink it.

You can't be serious, are you?

How does one "resolve a Snap Shot"?

If it worked as you suggest, which it clearly doesn't, then Skyfire would do nothing.
Because the model is "firing with it's normal BS" but the shot is "being ***resolved*** as a Snap Shot".

Absurd.

This is funny.
Have you read the Rules?
Do you know what Skyfire and Snapshot and Hard to Hit are and how they interact with each other?

**Mega_Nob**

I think there seems to be a lot of people who are just scared to get thier new, shiny flyers shot down by Tau! :-p

I know the odds are low but still.......

I may just use my Tau with an Aegis defence line and an Icarus. That or take an allied detatchment of Orks with a Flakka Dakka gun for funsies (and to save all the arguments!!).

Is there a way to set up a poll on here? Might be interesting to see a vote on this issue.

**Happyjew**

Mega_Nob wrote:
I think there seems to be a lot of people who are just scared to get thier new, shiny flyers shot down by Tau! :-p

Yeah, because my Eldar army has so many Flyers available to it.

**Mega_Nob**

Some armies excluded obviously! :-)

**DeathReaper**

Mega_Nob wrote:
I think there seems to be a lot of people who are just scared to get thier new, shiny flyers shot down by Tau! :-p

Do not assign motive when none exists, It is not a good way to debate rules.

**paidinfull**

40k-noob wrote:
paidinfull wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
paidinfull wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Again there is a difference between firing at BS1 and the shot being resolved at BS1.

Again. You are 100% wrong.

p80
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.

You may want to read what you wrote, and rethink it.

You can't be serious, are you?

How does one "resolve a Snap Shot"?

If it worked as you suggest, which it clearly doesn't, then Skyfire would do nothing.
Because the model is "firing with it's normal BS" but the shot is "being ***resolved*** as a Snap Shot".

Absurd.

This is funny.
Have you read the Rules?
Do you know what Skyfire and Snapshot and Hard to Hit are and how they interact with each other?

It was a conflicting statement to point out the absurdity of the logic argument reaper was trying, and failing, to make.

He was saying that "resolving as Snap Shot" is not the same thing as "firing a Snap Shot", which is, of course, semantic BS. That's why I asked the rhetorical question, "How do you resolve Snap Shots?" We only know what a Snap Shot is because of the rule quoted here.

Snap Shots p 13 BRB
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

There is no such thing as "resolving a Snap Shot" but not "making/firing a Snap Shot". It's completely made up and no where written in the rules. I say that because when you ask "How do you resolve a Snap Shot?" meaning where do you look up the rule, you turn to p13 and quite clearly, it says it reduces the models Ballistic Skill to 1 "for the purpose of those shots".

I then referenced Skyfire because this is what the rule says:
A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers.

Where in that rule does it say you use their normal Ballistic Skill when "resolving" shots against a Flyer? Again, it's rhetorical. It doesn't and so by reaper's flawed logic Skyfire literally would do nothing because even though you are shooting/making shots at the Flyer on your normal BS, they would "be resolved at BS1". However, we all know that it clearly allows you to fire at Flyers using your normal Ballistic Skill, hence disproving his silly argument.

The process 100% works as follows:
- Snap Shot a Markerlight at Flyer.
- If a Hit, expend Markerlight Token to Launch a seeker missile.
- Snap Shot reduces vehicles to BS1
- FAQ overrides that when it says:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

Hence... Seeker Missiles are BS5 versus Flyers.
The End.

**DeathReaper**

paidinfull wrote:
He was saying that "resolving as Snap Shot" is not the same thing as "firing a Snap Shot", which is, of course, semantic BS.

Without semantics the rules have no meaning...

**Aycee71**

Can you even Snap Shot a Seeker Missile? If a Seeker Missile cannot be Snap Shot then I don't see how it can even be fired at a flyer.

Aycee

**xole**

I don't see how the faq is the least bit relevant to this discussion. The Q and A regarding seeker missiles is talking about how they can be fired even if the vehicle carrying them is stunned, since seeker missiles are not (for the purposes of shooting) really part of the vehicle they are on. Nowhere in the question are flyers or even snap shots mentioned, since the seeker missile isn't making a snap shot if the vehicle is stunned. People are taking it really out of context.

The seeker missile has an assumed BS of 5.
BS is set to 5.
Fired as a snap shot.
BS is set to 1.
No other modifiers.
Shot is fired at BS 1.

**DAaddict**

While I would agree that it makes logical sense that a seeker missile would resolve at a BS 5 no matter what. You are dealing with the vagaries of GW rules. Because:

a) Tau are older than the hills
b) Snapfire and flyers were a twinkle in the eye at the time.

RAW is that either a seeker missile cannot be fired at a flyer since it can never be snapfired or that because it is being snapfired it will hit at BS 1.

Rules as implied one would think that it should hit at BS5 seeing you already have to hit with a markerlight at BS1 (snapfire).

Rules as effect, Tau are screwed by fliers no matter what because it costs so much to generate a hit...

1 Eldar warwalker with 2 scatter lasers generates 1.33 hits for a cost of 60 points...
1 Quad gun generates (assuming BS 3) 3 hits for a cost of 100 points.

Now assuming BS1 marker and BS1 snapshot... It costs
82 points to generate .028 chance to geenerate 1 hit.
Assumine BS 1 marker and BS 5 snapshot it costs 82 points to generate .14 chance to generate 1 hit.

So a quad gun generates 1 hit for 33 points.
A warwalker generates 1 hit for 45 points.
A tau with BS1 seeker missiles generates 1 for a mere 2929 points.
A tau with BS5 seeker missiles costs 582 to generate 1 hit.
A broadside will generate 1 hit for a costs of 229.

The point is in either case, a tau is an idiot for firing a markerlight seeker missile no matter what the resolution of this.

**Mega_Nob**

DeathReaper wrote:
Mega_Nob wrote:
I think there seems to be a lot of people who are just scared to get thier new, shiny flyers shot down by Tau! :-p

Do not assign motive when none exists, It is not a good way to debate rules.

Was a joke, hence the smiley. I meant no offence.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

paidinfull wrote:
40k-noob wrote:
paidinfull wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
paidinfull wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Again there is a difference between firing at BS1 and the shot being resolved at BS1.

Again. You are 100% wrong.

p80
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.

You may want to read what you wrote, and rethink it.

You can't be serious, are you?

How does one "resolve a Snap Shot"?

If it worked as you suggest, which it clearly doesn't, then Skyfire would do nothing.
Because the model is "firing with it's normal BS" but the shot is "being ***resolved*** as a Snap Shot".

Absurd.

This is funny.
Have you read the Rules?
Do you know what Skyfire and Snapshot and Hard to Hit are and how they interact with each other?

It was a conflicting statement to point out the absurdity of the logic argument reaper was trying, and failing, to make.

He was saying that "resolving as Snap Shot" is not the same thing as "firing a Snap Shot", which is, of course, semantic BS. That's why I asked the rhetorical question, "How do you resolve Snap Shots?" We only know what a Snap Shot is because of the rule quoted here.

Snap Shots p 13 BRB
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

There is no such thing as "resolving a Snap Shot" but not "making/firing a Snap Shot". It's completely made up and no where written in the rules. I say that because when you ask "How do you resolve a Snap Shot?" meaning where do you look up the rule, you turn to p13 and quite clearly, it says it reduces the models Ballistic Skill to 1 "for the purpose of those shots".

I then referenced Skyfire because this is what the rule says:
A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers.

Where in that rule does it say you use their normal Ballistic Skill when "resolving" shots against a Flyer? Again, it's rhetorical. It doesn't and so by reaper's flawed logic Skyfire literally would do nothing because even though you are shooting/making shots at the Flyer on your normal BS, they would "be resolved at BS1". However, we all know that it clearly allows you to fire at Flyers using your normal Ballistic Skill, hence disproving his silly argument.

The process 100% works as follows:
- Snap Shot a Markerlight at Flyer.
- If a Hit, expend Markerlight Token to Launch a seeker missile.
- Snap Shot reduces vehicles to BS1
- FAQ overrides that when it says:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

Hence... Seeker Missiles are BS5 versus Flyers.
The End.

Here here.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I read "resolved normally in all regards at an assumed BS of 5"

as

Resolved normally in all regards = Firing a seeker, whether it be snap shot or any other kind of shot.

At an assumed BS of 5 = Hits on a 2+

So, I follow this sequence: I am firing a seeker, I look at the rules and it says I have to hit with a markerlight first, which I do (I get lucky!), then I fire the seeker, I look at the rules once again, it says in all regards the seeker fires at BS5 once the marker light has hit, I roll a 3, Yey, I hit the flyer.

**DeathReaper**

And you have broken a rule if you hit a flyer if you roll a 3 and try to say that hits the flyer.

This is because "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming Flyer..." (FaQ).