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 xole wrote:
I don't see how the faq is the least bit relevant to this discussion. The Q and A regarding seeker missiles is talking about how they can be fired even if the vehicle carrying them is stunned, since seeker missiles are not (for the purposes of shooting) really part of the vehicle they are on. Nowhere in the question are flyers or even snap shots mentioned, since the seeker missile isn't making a snap shot if the vehicle is stunned. People are taking it really out of context.

The seeker missile has an assumed BS of 5.
BS is set to 5.
Fired as a snap shot.
BS is set to 1.
No other modifiers.
Shot is fired at BS 1.

Incorrect. The example is just that an example and can even be excluded from the question and still mean the same thing.. The FAQ is about reducing the vehicle's BS to 1.

If a vehicle is reduced to BS1 do its seeker missiles fire at BS5? Yes.

Codex specific > BRB general

This is really a silly discussion.

But as has been discussed the vehicle is NOT firing the seeker missile, so the FAQ doesnt mean anything here.

You can only snap shot at a flyer unless you have skyfire, does the seeker missile have skyfire, no, bs1 then.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And you have broken a rule if you hit a flyer if you roll a 3 and try to say that hits the flyer.

This is because "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming Flyer..." (FaQ).

No rules broken, follow this sequence:

I fire a markerlight as a snap shot, it hits (rolling a 6). I then look at the rules. The rules say "only snap shots at a zooming flyer", yes, I agree, then I look at the rules for snap shots(p13 BRB), this states "a models BS is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots" so for the purpose of these shots my BS is reduced to 1. I then look at the FAQ and that says "If my vehicle is reduced to BS1, do my seekers fire at BS1 or BS5? Answer, BS5. A snap shot is an occasion where the BS would be reduced to one. There is nothing there to say this excludes shooting at flyers. In any occasion where the BS of the vehicle is reduced to 1, the seeker still fires at BS5, hitting on a 2+. Logic.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkyMark wrote:
But as has been discussed the vehicle is NOT firing the seeker missile, so the FAQ doesnt mean anything here.

You can only snap shot at a flyer unless you have skyfire, does the seeker missile have skyfire, no, bs1 then.

The seeker is a unique weapon in that it doesn't actually get fired by a vehicle, or any model for that matter, therefore it isn't bound by any modifiers regarding BS. The FAQ backs this up by saying that in no circumstances does the BS of the seeker change from 5. It homes in on a markerlight as that is the only way it can work, hitting on 2+ because in all areas of the game a roll of 1 is a failure.

The FAQ specifically mentions the seeker missile so how can it not mean anything? Do we just ignore that part of the FAQ altogether then?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Funny, Reaper, you use treat as saved as not a save, but you counter assumed BS5 as BS5. "Treat as" and "assumed" are interchangeable. Read it as: assumed to be saved, or Treat as BS5. You are using the opposite argument in two separate cases, that have the same effect on the wording. Which way do you plan on arguing your case? If treat as saved for FNP can bypass the Removed from play with no saves of any kind for the Hexrifle, than the assumed BS5 should work VS fliers. Conversely if a seeker missile can't hit a flier with it's assumed BS5, than FNP can't be used against a Hexrifle.

That is not the same situation at all.

Yes in both cases we pretend the condition is true, however 'assume it has a BS of 5' is different language than 'Treated as saved'.

The situations are not comparable.

"This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5."

"Normally in all regards". That means if you resolve it as a snap shot then you need a 6 to hit, as that is the norm for resolving as a snap shot.

How is it not the same? You are attributing 2 situations in which the end effect is what the item is not. Is it saved? Is it BS5? the answer to both is no. It is treated as that, and nothing more. You are arguing that the answer is no for the first and yes for the second. The end meaning is the same if you change it to: The wound is assumed to be saved, or this shooting is resolved normally in all regards treating it as BS5. Very much the same. Treat as and assumed are interchangeable in both instances.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Treat as and assumed are interchangeable in both instances.

So is Bi-polar and whiny, it doesn't mean it's the same.

Mega_Nob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And you have broken a rule if you hit a flyer if you roll a 3 and try to say that hits the flyer.

This is because "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming Flyer..." (FaQ).

No rules broken, follow this sequence:

I fire a markerlight as a snap shot, it hits (rolling a 6). I then look at the rules. The rules say "only snap shots at a zooming flyer", yes, I agree, then I look at the rules for snap shots(p13 BRB), this states "a models BS is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots" so for the purpose of these shots my BS is reduced to 1. I then look at the FAQ and that says "If my vehicle is reduced to BS1, do my seekers fire at BS1 or BS5? Answer, BS5. A snap shot is an occasion where the BS would be reduced to one. There is nothing there to say this excludes shooting at flyers. In any occasion where the BS of the vehicle is reduced to 1, the seeker still fires at BS5, hitting on a 2+. Logic.

That is what you call logic? Maybe bad logic, as the Seeker missile did not fire as a snap shot.

If you resolve the seeker as a snap shot then, and only then can you hit a zooming flyer.

P.S. The FaQ you are referencing is for shaken or stunned vehicles and the firing of seeker missiles. This tells us that the vehicle itself does not fire the seeker missile, and that situation has no bearing on what we are discussing.

 DeathReaper wrote:


P.S. The FaQ you are referencing is for shaken or stunned vehicles and the firing of seeker missiles. This tells us that the vehicle itself does not fire the seeker missile, and that situation has no bearing on what we are discussing.

There is a total of 4 ways a vehicle will be firing snapshots: Shaken, Stunned, Moving(or moving to fast if a fast vehicle), and shooting at fliers. If it was only meant for the shaken or stunned it would not have said "for example". It would have simply said if the vehicle is shaken or stunned....

This FAQ entry has full bearing on the discussion at hand.


Also note that your logic invalidates the FAQ, so it must be your logic that is flawed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Treat as and assumed are interchangeable in both instances.

So is Bi-polar and whiny, it doesn't mean it's the same.

Bi-Polar is a medical condition, whiny is not synonymous with Bi-Polar in any way. Being Bi-Polar does not always result in a whiny personality either, it will often result in unhealthy outbursts, and even suicidal tendencies. It is a neurological imbalance that causes rapid, and often unrestrained emotional changes. Typically from depressive to a manic high energy state.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


P.S. The FaQ you are referencing is for shaken or stunned vehicles and the firing of seeker missiles. This tells us that the vehicle itself does not fire the seeker missile, and that situation has no bearing on what we are discussing.

There is a total of 4 ways a vehicle will be firing snapshots: Shaken, Stunned, Moving(or moving to fast if a fast vehicle), and shooting at fliers. If it was only meant for the shaken or stunned it would not have said "for example". It would have simply said if the vehicle is shaken or stunned....

This FAQ entry has full bearing on the discussion at hand.


Also note that your logic invalidates the FAQ, so it must be your logic that is flawed.

You don't fire a snapshot at a flier.

You resolve it as a snapshot.

See what I just did there, tricky right.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
P.S. The FaQ you are referencing is for shaken or stunned vehicles and the firing of seeker missiles. This tells us that the vehicle itself does not fire the seeker missile, and that situation has no bearing on what we are discussing.

You are missing the fact that it is not the vehicle that fires the missile.

Reread the Markerlight rules. It specifically says allows a vehicle to fire a seeker missile. The Vehicle is(how do you underline?) firing the missile. It is only triggered by the markerlight hit. The only bit is the vehicle can't normally control when they are launched, which is of course ignored by a skyray.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


You don't fire a snapshot at a flier.

You resolve it as a snapshot.

See what I just did there, tricky right.

You fire a Seeker missile, but you resolve it at BS5. Yep works both ways. They both resolve.(yes I know this is a stupid sentence, but since you guys like to play with words what the hell)

You prove nothing aside from they are both resolved, at something.

Okay the vehicle fires the missile as the rules for the missile state that the markerlight "Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5" (C:Tau 29)

Does that missile resolve as a snap shot?

If so then you are all good because "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming Flyer..." (FaQ).

You have no allowance to use BS 5 as the shot is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5, this includes being resolved as a snap shot.

You can have a set modifier that makes your BS 10, and you still resolve a hit against a flyer at BS1.

paidinfull wrote:

 xole wrote:
I don't see how the faq is the least bit relevant to this discussion. The Q and A regarding seeker missiles is talking about how they can be fired even if the vehicle carrying them is stunned, since seeker missiles are not (for the purposes of shooting) really part of the vehicle they are on. Nowhere in the question are flyers or even snap shots mentioned, since the seeker missile isn't making a snap shot if the vehicle is stunned. People are taking it really out of context.

The seeker missile has an assumed BS of 5.
BS is set to 5.
Fired as a snap shot.
BS is set to 1.
No other modifiers.
Shot is fired at BS 1.

Incorrect. The example is just that an example and can even be excluded from the question and still mean the same thing.. The FAQ is about reducing the vehicle's BS to 1.

If a vehicle is reduced to BS1 do its seeker missiles fire at BS5? Yes.

Codex specific > BRB general

This is really a silly discussion.

It is. That doesn't solve anything.

Now, tell me then, where in the faq is anything regarding snap shotting seeker missiles mentioned? I'd like to remind you once again that the seeker missile not being controlled by the vehicle is it's "special thing", which gives the context for this Q and A. If they had meant for all snap shots, why wouldn't they have just said so?

If a vehicle is reduced to BS1 do its seeker missiles fire at BS5? Yes.

By your own words, you are saying the vehicle is reduced to bs1. However, the vehicle is completely irrelevant. The seeker missile is what is being reduced to bs1 due to firing at a flyer. If the vehicle is required to fire snap shots for whatever reason, then the seeker missiles will still be able to fire normally. Which is what the faq says.

Read. The. Rules.
I took the time to post them in the thread. The least you can do is read them so you're not completely lazy and misinformed.

The *vehicle* is firing the seeker missile.

Reaper you are so caught up in your own semantics you are completely turned around.

"Only snap shots can hit a flier"
That is what you said.
That also means you believe that Skyfire does ***nothing****.

If you could, walk us through how "resolving" a Snap Shot works with relevant rules quotes as reference. If at any point you refer to the process on page 13 where it explicitly says the "model" is reduced to BS1, which is then clearly covered in the FAQ, you will have disproved your own argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw this line is straight out of FAQ.

"If a vehicle is reduced to BS1 do its seeker missiles fire at BS5? Yes. "
Modified only with the example removed because it is not, nor does it need to be all inclusive.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Okay the vehicle fires the missile as the rules for the missile state that the markerlight "Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5" (C:Tau 29)

Does that missile resolve as a snap shot?

If so then you are all good because "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming Flyer..." (FaQ).

You have no allowance to use BS 5 as the shot is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5, this includes being resolved as a snap shot.

You can have a set modifier that makes your BS 10, and you still resolve a hit against a flyer at BS1.

But you don't "resolve a hit against a flyer at BS1" rather the rules tell you "[a model's] Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots" great, count the tanks Ballistic Skill as 1, that is meaningless then because you are told to resolve seeker missiles at a certain pre-defined ballistic skill which has nothing to do with what the models BS is, or is assumed to be.

So would you Tau players acutally play a game and use this interpretation?,

i asked before and will ask again, is there any other shooting attack without skyfire allowed to hit a flyer without using hard to hit rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And you have broken a rule if you hit a flyer if you roll a 3 and try to say that hits the flyer.

This is because "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming Flyer..." (FaQ).

No rules broken, follow this sequence:

I fire a markerlight as a snap shot, it hits (rolling a 6). I then look at the rules. The rules say "only snap shots at a zooming flyer", yes, I agree, then I look at the rules for snap shots(p13 BRB), this states "a models BS is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots" so for the purpose of these shots my BS is reduced to 1. I then look at the FAQ and that says "If my vehicle is reduced to BS1, do my seekers fire at BS1 or BS5? Answer, BS5. A snap shot is an occasion where the BS would be reduced to one. There is nothing there to say this excludes shooting at flyers. In any occasion where the BS of the vehicle is reduced to 1, the seeker still fires at BS5, hitting on a 2+. Logic.

That is what you call logic? Maybe bad logic, as the Seeker missile did not fire as a snap shot.

If you resolve the seeker as a snap shot then, and only then can you hit a zooming flyer.

P.S. The FaQ you are referencing is for shaken or stunned vehicles and the firing of seeker missiles. This tells us that the vehicle itself does not fire the seeker missile, and that situation has no bearing on what we are discussing.

The FAQ uses shaken or stunned as an example it is not saying in just those circumstances, so what other examples are there when your BS is reduced to one? Snap shots maybe? OK, then the seeker still fires at BS5. You just contradict your own point by saying the vehicle doesn't fire the seeker, that has been part of my point all through the thread. It is not fired by a model and therefore is not bound by the rules of a model, eg, having to modify it's BS, as it technically doesn't have a BS stat to reduce.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


P.S. The FaQ you are referencing is for shaken or stunned vehicles and the firing of seeker missiles. This tells us that the vehicle itself does not fire the seeker missile, and that situation has no bearing on what we are discussing.

There is a total of 4 ways a vehicle will be firing snapshots: Shaken, Stunned, Moving(or moving to fast if a fast vehicle), and shooting at fliers. If it was only meant for the shaken or stunned it would not have said "for example". It would have simply said if the vehicle is shaken or stunned....

This FAQ entry has full bearing on the discussion at hand.


Also note that your logic invalidates the FAQ, so it must be your logic that is flawed.

You don't fire a snapshot at a flier.

You resolve it as a snapshot.

See what I just did there, tricky right.

So, I shoot a seeker at a flyer, I have to *resolve* this shot as a snap shot, this by its very definition in the rules is a shot that reduces your BS to 1. The word resolved doesn't come back into it (see p13 BRB). I then look at the FAQ and see that If the vehicle that the seeker is on is reduced to BS1 for any reason, my seeker still fires at BS5.

Mega_Nob wrote:
The FAQ uses shaken or stunned as an example it is not saying in just those circumstances, so what other examples are there when your BS is reduced to one?

Firing Ordnance weapons, moving too fast, enemy model special abilities, weapon special abilities, etc.

It is not fired by a model and therefore is not bound by the rules of a model, eg, having to modify it's BS, as it technically doesn't have a BS stat to reduce.

As has been pointed out it is fired by a model.

So, I shoot a seeker at a flyer, I have to *resolve* this shot as a snap shot, this by its very definition in the rules is a shot that reduces your BS to 1. The word resolved doesn't come back into it (see p13 BRB). I then look at the FAQ and see that If the vehicle that the seeker is on is reduced to BS1 for any reason, my seeker still fires at BS5.

Except the vehicle's BS is not reduced so you cannot look at that FAQ for guidance. There is a better FAQ that covers this and has been posted. Here's a hint, it's the one whose answer starts with "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers..." and then gives some examples as to what this means.

Happyjew wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:
The FAQ uses shaken or stunned as an example it is not saying in just those circumstances, so what other examples are there when your BS is reduced to one?

Firing Ordnance weapons, moving too fast, enemy model special abilities, weapon special abilities, etc.

Yes, I agree.

It is not fired by a model and therefore is not bound by the rules of a model, eg, having to modify it's BS, as it technically doesn't have a BS stat to reduce.

As has been pointed out it is fired by a model.

OK, so if it is, the vehicle firing the seeker is reduced to BS1 by the snap shot rule, the seeker then fires at BS5 according to the FAQ.

So, I shoot a seeker at a flyer, I have to *resolve* this shot as a snap shot, this by its very definition in the rules is a shot that reduces your BS to 1. The word resolved doesn't come back into it (see p13 BRB). I then look at the FAQ and see that If the vehicle that the seeker is on is reduced to BS1 for any reason, my seeker still fires at BS5.

Except the vehicle's BS is not reduced so you cannot look at that FAQ for guidance. There is a better FAQ that covers this and has been posted. Here's a hint, it's the one whose answer starts with "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers..." and then gives some examples as to what this means.

Yes, only snap shots can hit zooming flyers, what does a snap shot do? reduce your BS to 1, what does the FAQ say? If your BS is reduced to 1 you still fire the seeker at BS5.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

Its as simple as this, it is not reduced to BS1, It is resolved at BS1. This essentially means "Resolve the Shot as if the model was BS1"

Also, I will point back to
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/471748.page

Where this exact argument went in circles constantly and I will point out that if the two parties are unwilling to hear what the others are saying this thread is likely to be locked.

Also - if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place.

rigeld2 wrote:
Also - if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place.

Have to agree with this, only snap shots can hit flyers, it is quite a blanket rule really hence why no one has given me a example of another shooting attack that doesnt have to snap shot to hit fliers without skyfire.

MarkyMark wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Also - if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place.

Have to agree with this, only snap shots can hit flyers, it is quite a blanket rule really hence why no one has given me a example of another shooting attack that doesnt have to snap shot to hit fliers without skyfire.

Looks right. I've been running around looking reading FAQ's and all that jazz.

I'm not comfortable with either interpretation here, which is why I haven't posted much in this thread.

On one hand there is the argument that resolving a shot as a snap shot is different to making a snap shot, mechanically. I can't find a single piece of rules support for this interpretation of resolve, so it seems to me that resolveing as a snap shot reduces your BS to 1. It does not say resolved at BS1, it says resolved as a snap shot. We know that the snap shot rule, at least in the case of the Tau Seeker missiles is considered to reduce ballistic skill (as per the Tau FAQ).

The other argument that firing at BS5 is not firing a snap shot doesn't wash with me either. You are still snap shooting with that seeker missile, you just do so at BS5, because when your BS is set to 1 by the Snap Shot rule being resolved and then the FAQ kicks in.

So I can't support the need a 6 to hit camp.

On the other hand the Signum is a very similar item, which we know cannot improve your BS to hit fliers, via the FAQ from the BRB. Further the difference in wording between make a snap shot and resolved as a snap shot does seem significant, implying a difference in menaing although I can't tease out what that difference is.

So I can't support the need a 2 to hit camp.

Yeah for me this issue is completely unresolved and I think will remain so until either

1) GW FAQ this

2) Someone can show me rules support for the definition of resolved whcih allows it to be interpreted definitively one way or ther other

3) Some otehr combination of factors I haven't thought of.

Incidentally for that reason I'm going HIWPI if my opponent is using Tau he can hit on 2's, if for some reason I start a Tau army, I hit on 6's that way everyones happy during games.

How about this. The Markerlight/seeker missile tells us to resolve normally in all regards. Snap shots, in it's own rules says in certain situations, the model is reduced to BS1. Certain situations is not normally, it is an exception. As The Seeker missile is resolved normally, it would ignore the exception, and fire at BS5. The Main rule book tells us to use codex rules over rulebook rules when there is a conflict. Even with both FAQ's in place it would allow the Seeker missile to hit at BS 5. There now is no conflict in the rules, snapshots only rule is trumped by the rules for markerlight riding seeker missiles.

I am unfamiliar with the signum rules, so will refrain from arguing that rule at the moment. Maybe, it was ruled the way it was as it does not use another attack to function. Or maybe even because it modifies a stat prior to the attack, and the markelight you would in effect be using the hard to hit rule twice for a single attack. Just thoughts, until I can read the Signum rules.

No, Normally you need to fire a snap shot to hit a zooming flyer.

As Rig said "if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place."

Then you are the one breaking rules. As the main rulebook specifically states that Codex trumps rulebook, whenever a conflict arises. The FAQ supports this, at least until they change them. The Specific Tau FAQ answer trumps the Core Rulebook FAQ answer.

And doing things "normally" would preclude using the "exception" which is "Snap Shots". The "only Snap shots can hit fliers" is still trumped by the Codex "special" rule, and is admited as such in the Core Rulebook.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Then you are the one breaking rules. As the main rulebook specifically states that Codex trumps rulebook, whenever a conflict arises. The FAQ supports this, at least until they change them. The Specific Tau FAQ answer trumps the Core Rulebook FAQ answer.

And doing things "normally" would preclude using the "exception" which is "Snap Shots". The "only Snap shots can hit fliers" is still trumped by the Codex "special" rule, and is admited as such in the Core Rulebook.

Agreed, I have been failing to mention the codex in my recent posts, digging logic from the rules and FAQ doesn't seem to have got me far with some people so I'll mention it again in agreement with you. Codex says it hits at BS5 in all regards so, Markerlight hits unit, Seeker fires at unit, in all regards it hits on a 2+ regardless of what the unit type is.

Never heard of one FAQ trumping another, new one to think off.

So markerlights can shoot at flyers as if they have skyfire because of the way you read the rules. Cant say I'd let it wash in a acutal game

MarkyMark wrote:
Never heard of one FAQ trumping another, new one to think off.

So markerlights can shoot at flyers as if they have skyfire because of the way you read the rules. Cant say I'd let it wash in a acutal game

Codex trumps rules, codex says the seeker fires at a unit which has been hit with a markerlight with BS5 in all regards. That unit could be a tank, a flyer or a warlord, it still fires with BS5, in all regards.

Mega_Nob wrote:
Codex says it hits at BS5 in all regards so, Markerlight hits unit, Seeker fires at unit, in all regards it hits on a 2+ regardless of what the unit type is.

That's not what the Codex says - please don't misrepresent it.