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This is ridiculous. There's no point in arguing anymore. There's one group of people who insist that "resolving a shot as a snap shot" somehow has different properties than "firing a snap shot," and that "resolving a shot as a snap shot" does not result in your BS being "reduced," despite the fact that you roll to hit with a BS of 1, which is less, and therefore a reduction, than any BS value that is greater than 1.

Meanwhile, the other group uses common sense and the FAQ to arrive at the correct answer that the FAQ ruling makes seeker missiles fire at BS 5, even during snap shots (including those fired/resolved against flyers).

I will be playing the latter, correct interpretation and will pack up my models if anyone argues to the contrary.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I'm still not seeing any proof for the "resolved" argument.

The BRB is not a dictionary.

If you do not know what is it "Resolve" as a snapshot well then...I can't help you and you probably should not play games that include resolving stuff.

Ok, ignoring the tone.

Resolved means that you act as if it were. Ok. I'll resolve my seeker missile as if it were a snap shot. BRB says I need a 6, and I will abide by that unless there is a related FAQ. There is. Seeker missiles hit on a 2+ if they are snap fired. So I'm resolving as if the seeker missile where snap firing as required.

1st. Sorry about the tone.

2nd. No that is not what it means to "resolve", what you defined was essentially to "Count as"
To resolve in this game is to determine an outcome, for example, to "resolve" a charge you roll 2D6 and compare the results to the number of inches needed to reach BTB with your target.

How so? Where are you getting this bizarre concept from?
Snap fire has a different affect on seeker missiles. It's resolving as if it were snap firing, but it doesn't affect it still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know what resolve means. The definition you give still fits. And where do you get your definition btw? It's not in the BRB because as already stated, its not a dictionary.

What if you had a weapon that was assault, but when you fire it the rules state to resolve it as a heavy weapon shot.

But the. The unit also had relentless. Would that unit be able to charge?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
How so? Where are you getting this bizarre concept from?
Snap fire has a different affect on seeker missiles. It's resolving as if it were snap firing, but it doesn't affect it still.

See that is where you are getting this all wrong.

1st. Snapshot rules does not reduce or change the BS on anything. The rule says to "count as" BS 1.
So what happens when any unit that fires at a Zooming Flyer and does not have the Skyfire rule, for the purposes of those shots the BS is counted as 1 regardless of what their actual BS might be.

2nd. The charge thing was just an example, I dont want to get into a back and forth about charge scenarios.

40k-noob wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
How so? Where are you getting this bizarre concept from?
Snap fire has a different affect on seeker missiles. It's resolving as if it were snap firing, but it doesn't affect it still.

See that is where you are getting this all wrong.

1st. Snapshot rules does not reduce or change the BS on anything. The rule says to "count as" BS 1.
So what happens when any unit that fires at a Zooming Flyer and does not have the Skyfire rule, for the purposes of those shots the BS is counted as 1 regardless of what their actual BS might be.

And it's counted as Bs1 because of the snap shot rule. Seeker missile FAQ covers the Snap Shot rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the charge example works because are you going to only look at the rules for Heavy weapons or the rules for relentless as well.

"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures."

Will somebody in the "resolved as is different from shot as" snap shot camp explain to me: If flyers can only be hit by snap shots, then how can anything (apart from a vehicle or a model with a heavy weapon that moved) shoot at a flyer? After all, resolving you shot as a snap shot isn't the same thing as actually snap shooting.

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures."

Will somebody in the "resolved as is different from shot as" snap shot camp explain to me: If flyers can only be hit by snap shots, then how can anything (apart from a vehicle or a model with a heavy weapon that moved) shoot at a flyer? After all, resolving you shot as a snap shot isn't the same thing as actually snap shooting.

Enjoy waiting

I love the "resolved as" people. They keep ignoring the Resolved normally in the markerlight rules. As Snap shots and Hard to hit are exceptions to the normal shooting rules, and I am to resolve normally, They are still botching it. Where does that help? Well, my resolve in my codex still beats your resolve in the BRB. Codex rules beat BRB rules, Codex FAQ beats BRB FAQ. Where does that leave us? Seeker missiles hit fliers with a BS5.

If resolved as a Snap shot = Firing a Snap Shot, then you cannot choose to fire at a Flyer, as you can never choose to fire a Snap Shot.

It says choose to fire as a snap shot as opposed to firing normally. I.e. a unit with Skyfire can't choose to snap fire, hitting only on 6's, instead of rolling to hit normally.

Either way, we aren't choosing to fire it as a snap shot. We are firing and forced to handle it as a snap shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it still doesn't change the fact that we are firing normally, resolving as a snap shot, and still hitting on a 2+ because FAQ overrides the Snap Shot requirement of a 6.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I love the "resolved as" people. They keep ignoring the Resolved normally in the markerlight rules.

And how is a models shot normally resolved when they are shooting at a flyer?


Also, the Tank firing the Seeker does so and we assume the Tank has a BS of 5 for this shot.

That is the tank's BS Characteristic as far as the Seeker missile is concerned.

Then along comes the Multiple Modifiers section that tells us the BS1 of a snapshot over-rides the base value of the model firing the shot, and we are shooting flyers at a BS of 1.

The BS5 is not a set value, it is the assumed Characteristic of the tank for the purposes of that shot.

To say that the BS of the shot is a set value is to argue that a Marine with a power fist has a Set value of 4 for his str score, and Power Fists do nothing. Which of course is not correct.

 DeathReaper wrote:

And how is a models shot normally resolved when they are shooting at a flyer?


Also, the Tank firing the Seeker does so and we assume the Tank has a BS of 5 for this shot.

That is the tank's BS Characteristic as far as the Seeker missile is concerned.

Then along comes the Multiple Modifiers section that tells us the BS1 of a snapshot over-rides the base value of the model firing the shot, and we are shooting flyers at a BS of 1.

The BS5 is not a set value, it is the assumed Characteristic of the tank for the purposes of that shot.

To say that the BS of the shot is a set value is to argue that a Marine with a power fist has a Set value of 4 for his str score, and Power Fists do nothing. Which of course is not correct.

Since you keep pretending the FAQ doesn't exist and ignoring that it answers the issue about its snap fire, you have nothing relevant to add to the discussion.

The FaQ only tells us what happens if the vehicle is forced to fire snapshots.

"Crew Shaken...The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn" (74)

Vs:

"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots" (81)

Firing at a flyer is different, as you only resolve those as snap shots.

Notice the difference?

In the first one the vehicle is firing a snap shot because it can not make a normal shot due to its shaken condition.

In the second one the vehicle is capable of making a normal shot, but must resolve the shot as a snapshot due to the Hard to hit rule.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Fragile wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
This boils down to the same thing that JoTWW does. FRP vs RFPaaC.

Firing a snap shot
Resolving as a snap shot.

At the end of the day.

RFP is not the same as FRPaaC
and
Firing a snap shot is not the same as resolving as a snap

So clarify the difference for me then, because currently the wording "resolve as a snap shot" has no real bearing the RAW of this situation.

Well than How else do you shoot a zooming flyer. The RAW does not tell you to snap fire does it?

Your avoiding the issue. You claim there is a difference between firing a snap shot and resolving a shot as a snap shot. Please clarify the difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The FaQ only tells us what happens if the vehicle is forced to fire snapshots.

"Crew Shaken...The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn" (74)

Vs:

"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots" (81)

Firing at a flyer is different, as you only resolve those as snap shots.

Notice the difference?

In the first one the vehicle is firing a snap shot because it can not make a normal shot due to its shaken condition.

In the second one the vehicle is capable of making a normal shot, but must resolve the shot as a snapshot due to the Hard to hit rule.

And in all this you manage to say nothing. Both case the shooter is firing a Snap Shot. You have failed to show how "resolving" is its own unique form of a Snap Shot that is different from every other Snap Shot.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Second verse, same as the first.

You keep adding things in there. Remove the example from the FAQ (because you think it only applies to that specified situation) and it says the same thing. If a Seeker missile is fired using snap fire rules then it still hits in a 2+

If its resolved as a snap shot, the. It still hits on a 2+ since that's how a seeker missile would resolve a snap shot.

Look at my charge example. How would you handle that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And answer my question from earlier. Are the questions worded by GW employees and therefore approved, or are all FAQs invalidated?

The example is just that, it is not an exhaustive list of everything.

Anything resolves as a snap shot at a flyer the same as anything else.

"Only snapshots can hit a zooming flyer"

AkA BS1 so you need a6 to hit.

The questions from the rabble are just that Questions from people that do not work for GW. The questions are asked and GW provides their official response.

 DeathReaper wrote:
a little bit louder and a little bit worse.

You are ignoring the FAQ AGAIN! It resolves as a Snap shot. How do snap shots affect Seeker missiles as covered in the FAQ? BS5.

You keep quoting a general as if it overrides a specific.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The example is just that, it is not an exhaustive list of everything.

Anything resolves as a snap shot at a flyer the same as anything else.

"Only snapshots can hit a zooming flyer"

AkA BS1 so you need a6 to hit.

The questions from the rabble are just that Questions from people that do not work for GW. the questions are asked and GW provides their official response.

You still havent explained how a Snap Shot that is Resolved is any different than firing a regular SS. Unless you can make the two into different things, then the FAQ will override and make the missile BS5

Then you are saying that all FAQs are not legitimate. If GW does not approve the questions wording the. It may as well be blank. If the question is effectively blank the. The answer is a statement with no relevance. Is this why you ignore the FAQ? Because you don't recognize them as having any merit?

And the example stands. Would the unit be able to charge? Would their relentless override the "Resolved" heavy weapon effect.

Maybe you should stop misquoting me, and address that it says "Only snapshots can hit a zooming flyer"

Is the seeker fired as a snapshot? (Or have a specific exception like the Skyfire rule?).

Yes. It's firing a snap shot!

And I'd quote you right if you had something relevant to say.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The example is just that, it is not an exhaustive list of everything.

Anything resolves as a snap shot at a flyer the same as anything else.

"Only snapshots can hit a zooming flyer"

AkA BS1 so you need a6 to hit.

The questions from the rabble are just that Questions from people that do not work for GW. the questions are asked and GW provides their official response.

You still havent explained how a Snap Shot that is Resolved is any different than firing a regular SS. Unless you can make the two into different things, then the FAQ will override and make the missile BS5

Firing a snapshot means your vehicle has been Shaken, or you are firing overwatch, as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

Resolving as a snapshot means your vehicle has not been stunned, but you have to resolve the shots as a snap shot because of the Hard to hit Rule.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
And I'd quote you right if you had something relevant to say.

How about not breaking the rules of the forum, maybe we can start with that...

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Yes. It's firing a snap shot!

No, it is not, it is being resolved as a snap shot.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Firing a snapshot means your vehicle has been Shaken, or you are firing overwatch, as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

Resolving as a snapshot means your vehicle has not been stunned, but you have to resolve the shots as a snap shot because of the Hard to hit Rule...

That makes no sense. You're idea of "resolve" still means that its firing a snap shot. And how do seeker missiles handle a snap shot?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you just said that snap shots are the only thing that can hit flyers, yet its not a snap shot because its "resolved" and not actually fired as a snap shot?!

And sorry if you're offended, but you've been saying the EXACT same wrong thing the entire day, and ignoring when everyone points to the contrary.

You still haven't explained how any FaQ is considered relevant. You still haven't answered how to bypass the FAQ which trumps the BS1 of snap fire, and you're just contradicting yourself now.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Firing a snapshot means your vehicle has been Shaken, or you are firing overwatch, as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

Resolving as a snapshot means your vehicle has not been stunned, but you have to resolve the shots as a snap shot because of the Hard to hit Rule...

That makes no sense. You're idea of "resolve" still means that its firing a snap shot. And how do seeker missiles handle a snap shot?

Just like every other model in the game, that is not shaken.

They fire at their full BS, but resolve those shots as Snap Shots.

The FAQ does not have a specific exception to the Hard to hit rule, are you claiming it has a specific exception to the Hard to hit rule? If so that is incorrect.

Firing a snap shot and resolving a snap shot are two different things, no contradiction there...

"any FaQ is considered relevant" because GW says these are the answers to the questions the rabble ask. (The FaQ answers are official as far as YMDC is concerned).

Note that there is a difference between a models characteristic value (Or assumed characteristic value) and a Set Value.

14 pages, going nowhere...