Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm having a bit of frustration when looking at my codex these days.

I've played a few dozen games now with the new CSM Codex, having redone most of my army listing and battlegear. My main problem I'm noticing, Challenges..

I understand how these challenges are supposed to be fun "fluff" (if you will) but, why do our champions have to have 1W?...

I find it disgusting that all of our champions have 1W....Whenever I find myself getting into challenges with my friends squads, my champion just simply dies because of his wargear =/ (My Khorne Zerker Champ has a Powerfist + Plasma Pistol) Am I doing something wrong?

Most of the time I'm fighting DE and Orks, When I find myself fighting DE usually my friend with have some absurd amount of overwatch to basically tear through my guys B4 I even get to him, then my Champion gets put into a kill box with some IC like Lilith =/

One game I put a Lord of Slanesh with a squad of Chosen all using LCs and although the Chosen did fine for the most part (Stupid dodge is bullcrap on Bloodbrides) my Lord died to Lilith before he even got to strike =/

I love my army, but I'm finding my tactics running pretty much on fumes against DE...

But back on topic, why do all of our Champions have 1W :(
Heck even our Terminator Champions have only 1W =/

1W as in one weapon?

Don't put power fists on champions if you can help it. when you get into a challenge, you go last. no padding anymore to get them through assault.

Because having more than one wound is ridiculous and OP. You only need to wound once. They all need to wound twice on a 3 up save toughness 4-5 model with ws4 and t4. See the unbalance there?

oh, one wound. Ok.

Squad champions are just sergeants. Regular marine sgts don't get extra wounds. I don't believe Ork Nobs are 2 wounds. Equipping them correctly will help.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
1W as in one weapon?

Don't put power fists on champions if you can help it. when you get into a challenge, you go last. no padding anymore to get them through assault.

perhaps that is what im doing worng =/

I enjoy having that str 8 beat stick though =( it will be missed, but I'll give a lightning claw a try

1W = 1Wound (sorry, I wasn't very clear on that >.<


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
oh, one wound. Ok.

Squad champions are just sergeants. Regular marine sgts don't get extra wounds. I don't believe Ork Nobs are 2 wounds. Equipping them correctly will help.

Ork Nobs are 2 Wounds sadly =(

Power swords/Lighting claws are your new weapon of choice for sergeants, kinda sad because i as many probably had all my champs with power fists, but oh well, i'm slowly assembling new champs with swords.

Do you have any suggestions against DE ??

Im all ears for tactics!

I have the most trouble against Ravagers =/

Something about a pee-wee xport having 16 shots is just crazy...

dude never go one to one with lellith just shoot her

Suggestion: Never ever ever fight a sergeant against a SC. Unless it's the Space Pope you will have a bad day.

Deep-striking obliterators might help with Ravgers.
Black mace should work wonders ob DE and frankly you can simply bolter them down.
Autocannon havocs help vs their transports.

GoliothOnline wrote:
Do you have any suggestions against DE ??

Im all ears for tactics!

He can't have lilith in every squad.

Hint- Don't charge lilith.

As suggested, boltguns work well against DE.

Don't use fists that make you strike at I1 unless your sure your gonna punch on with terminators or vehicles.

As a DE player I have the most trouble against fliers, mass mech (don't try it as CSM though, you can do better) and lots of foot marines, rendering all those lances Ive brought less effective. If I were you I would focus more on dedicated shooting, wyches just love dedicated assault units, wyches will fare poorly against normal CSM and similar units. Wyches are a tarpit unit, and while Zerkers aren't bad against them, should be dealt with in one of two ways. (shoot the hell out of them, or cultists). Honestly it sounds like he's bringing a fluffy list so you should be fine, what is your list like?

If you're worried about xenos characters power mauls should serve you well. +2 Strength, AP 4 and you strike at initiative (although you'll probably hit last anyway). BUT if you survive your AP will negate their armour & you'll have a higher enough Strength value to insta-kill them.

I agree, stop taking fists. W1 characters should always take something that hits at initiative, because yeah, not a huge chance they're going to survive to use it otherwise.

I'd personally start rolling with either a mace or a sword for awhile, and see if that helps.

Another option is naked champions. The whole forced challenge thing is a real pain, so doing your best to mitigate it's impact is a valid approach.

The Chaos book is designed to be extremely offensive. When kitted out correctly, Chaos Champions can be the best Sergeants in the game since our power comes from the Marks. A Mark of Khorne Champion that has a Lightning Claw with Veterans of the Long War has 4 attacks on the charge and is re-rolling hits (against half the armies in the game) and wounds. I see the fact that our standard Chaos troop is cheap because we're meant to upgrade them to be really crazy.

GoliothOnline wrote:

I have the most trouble against Ravagers =/

Something about a pee-wee xport having 16 shots is just crazy...

Ravagers:

1) Are not transports
2) cannot fire overwatch, as they are vehicles.

As someone mentioned above, you need to kit out your sargents for duels. Which is not very difficult given the options.

The most powerful option is LC and PF, giving you +1A for the LC, due to both being Specialist Weapons, AND the option to switch to PF. I would only do this for Mark of Slaneesh marines though, as it's too expensive for anyone at I4 who might still die after killing his target. Just never go dual LCs, they are pointless when you can get a PF instead. Also a great option for lords!

For the normal champs, Power Sword(or single LC, it's actually slightly better) with Meltabombs is a good standby. 5pts cheaper than the Fist, and due to the new vehicle melee rules, a Meltabomb is often all you need. Generally speaking, with bezerkers and most other marines, you should have no problem killing vehicles with Krak grenades now. Meltas for walkers.

The only people who should be getting powerfists are plague marine champs, who are I3 anyways(and can survive power swords), a couple of Terminators, and any sargent in a squad with a lord that hits at I5+. The lord can happily handle the duels after all.

After all this, dueling is not really a problem. PFs are no longer nearly as essential as they used to be, and given that Chaos has some of the best duelists in the game,you're all good. And hey, when you turn that sargent into a Daemon Prince, you'll be laughing.

I'm definitely voting Power Maul. +2 Str AP4 is pretty fair. It ignores almost all Xenos armor, as well as Guard Equiv. It's cheaper than a fist and can still crack vehicles if you need.

Slaanesh is fast, wyches are faster, not very often you will ever strike first against DE. their max range is 36", ours is 48-72" so use it, sonic weapons are expensive, but ignore cover saves, so no jynk saves on vehicles or bikes. take out the transports and slaanesh will devour their souls with ease

GoliothOnline wrote:

I've played a few dozen games now with the new CSM Codex, having redone most of my army listing and battlegear. My main problem I'm noticing, Challenges..

I understand how these challenges are supposed to be fun "fluff" (if you will) but, why do our champions have to have 1W?...

I find it disgusting that all of our champions have 1W....Whenever I find myself getting into challenges with my friends squads, my champion just simply dies because of his wargear =/ (My Khorne Zerker Champ has a Powerfist + Plasma Pistol) Am I doing something wrong?

DO NOT ASSAULT LILITH. YOU WILL LOSE. All caps aside, you do not want to assault Dark Eldar in general. Bolters work much better against the paper mache space elves. You can use your beserkers as counter assault unit to mop up a damaged unit, but even then it's risky, especially with any kind of DE HQ in there.


Another thing you can do is to position your champions in assault in a way that they cannot issue or receive challenges. On p64 of the mrb, it says "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." (emphasis mine) On p23 the book says this about engaged models: "a model is engaged that during its initiative step and must fight if: - during its initiative step it is in base to base contact with an enemy model - Or is within 2" of a friendly model that is in base to base contact." Since Challenges are done at the beginning of the Fight subphase, if your Champion is not currently engaged, he may not issue or accept challenges. He will pile in normally during his initiative step which can be used to get him to attack.

So what you can do is this: put your Champion in the back of the unit. Normally he will be unable to be engaged (especially if you spread out the squad), and will then pile in during his initiative step to attack as normal. If he's armed with a powerfist (or any other 'Unwieldy weapon), he'll pile in at I1 (GW MRB FAQ, p3). So the enemy unit charges, or you charge, the champion is in the back, out of engagement. He cannot participate in challenges. The combat plays out as normal, when appropriate, he will Pile In and attack. This allows him to avoid challenges and still attack. Just make sure you set the squad up right in your movement phase.

A diagram of something like this can be seen on p23 of the MRB. Place the champion in a manner similar to the Red Circled Guardians. The Champion will Pile In, then be able to attack without having to worry about challenges. You might need to physically lay out some models and go through a 'dry run' or two to get the exact execution right and result right. This should help you out a bit.

 entendre_entendre wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

I've played a few dozen games now with the new CSM Codex, having redone most of my army listing and battlegear. My main problem I'm noticing, Challenges..

I understand how these challenges are supposed to be fun "fluff" (if you will) but, why do our champions have to have 1W?...

I find it disgusting that all of our champions have 1W....Whenever I find myself getting into challenges with my friends squads, my champion just simply dies because of his wargear =/ (My Khorne Zerker Champ has a Powerfist + Plasma Pistol) Am I doing something wrong?

DO NOT ASSAULT LILITH. YOU WILL LOSE. All caps aside, you do not want to assault Dark Eldar in general. Bolters work much better against the paper mache space elves. You can use your beserkers as counter assault unit to mop up a damaged unit, but even then it's risky, especially with any kind of DE HQ in there.


Another thing you can do is to position your champions in assault in a way that they cannot issue or receive challenges. On p64 of the mrb, it says "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." (emphasis mine) On p23 the book says this about engaged models: "a model is engaged that during its initiative step and must fight if: - during its initiative step it is in base to base contact with an enemy model - Or is within 2" of a friendly model that is in base to base contact." Since Challenges are done at the beginning of the Fight subphase, if your Champion is not currently engaged, he may not issue or accept challenges. He will pile in normally during his initiative step which can be used to get him to attack.

So what you can do is this: put your Champion in the back of the unit. Normally he will be unable to be engaged (especially if you spread out the squad), and will then pile in during his initiative step to attack as normal. If he's armed with a powerfist (or any other 'Unwieldy weapon), he'll pile in at I1 (GW MRB FAQ, p3). So the enemy unit charges, or you charge, the champion is in the back, out of engagement. He cannot participate in challenges. The combat plays out as normal, when appropriate, he will Pile In and attack. This allows him to avoid challenges and still attack. Just make sure you set the squad up right in your movement phase.

A diagram of something like this can be seen on p23 of the MRB. Place the champion in a manner similar to the Red Circled Guardians. The Champion will Pile In, then be able to attack without having to worry about challenges. You might need to physically lay out some models and go through a 'dry run' or two to get the exact execution right and result right. This should help you out a bit.

Just to be clear the 'you can keep your characters out of challenges by hiding them in the back' thing is contestable, as (although I can't remember the exact wording of the argument) there is a position that because of the exact timing of when challenges are issued, it is impossible to EVER be in a challenge on the charge. I'm not sure if this has been FAQ'd or not, and I'm not turning this into a YMDC thread (there is enough of those as it is), but I'm just pointing out that there are two sides of the argument (to clarify, I personally have no opinion either way) and the ability to arguably hide sergeants may go away in the next FAQ.

Secondly, there is one general exception to the 'DO NOT CHARGE LILITH RULE" Abbadon will statistically defeat Lilith in combat, but I agree that that you should not expect an Aspiring Champion to take down a DE character.

As for actually equipping the Champion himself, the general rule I've found with sergeants is that you now have to build them to counter other characters rather than to use them as a hidden powerfist/klaw/warscythe/nerfgun/whatever. That generally means that you want to avoid taking fists and axes on MEQ sergeants so that they can continue to use their high I value, and you take either a sword/lightning claw or a Maul. I'm partial to a sword because while Mauls are better at anything that isn't a model in PA (with multi-wound T3 models in PA being the exception), the things you want to be killing in challenges are more likely to be sporting PA than Carapace Armor. Taking a pistol can be nice but isn't necessary, despite Combi-meltas providing extra AT, I think that the D3 auto-hits from the combi-flamer are perhaps more useful, especially if you want to have answers to a combat.

Do you know that you cannot accept or issue a challenge unless you are within 2" of a models that is base to base with an enemy just before the I10 pile in move?

If you want to work around the 'always challenging' all you have to do is put your characters towards the back. So they can still strike when they make their pile in move, but won't be able to challenge or be challenged.

But what fun is that? I love rolling on the Boons chart so much I put the gift of mutation on every single character I can and I religiously monitor their shooting on the off-chance I get a precision shot on an opposing sergeant.

The only thing I would consider giving a standard Champion is a combi plasma to get a chance at precision shots which would then allow you to kill him without even entering combat/challenge.

Otherwise standard champions aren't worth the points spent on upgrades as they can fall over easily, if they dont that's a bonus.

Plague Marine Champs are a little more durable as are T'Sons.

GoliothOnline wrote:my champion just simply dies because of his wargear =/ (My Khorne Zerker Champ has a Powerfist + Plasma Pistol) Am I doing something wrong?

Then give him different wargear; is this not a no-brainer of an answer?

GoliothOnline wrote:
I'm having a bit of frustration when looking at my codex these days.

I've played a few dozen games now with the new CSM Codex, having redone most of my army listing and battlegear. My main problem I'm noticing, Challenges..

I understand how these challenges are supposed to be fun "fluff" (if you will) but, why do our champions have to have 1W?...

I find it disgusting that all of our champions have 1W....Whenever I find myself getting into challenges with my friends squads, my champion just simply dies because of his wargear =/ (My Khorne Zerker Champ has a Powerfist + Plasma Pistol) Am I doing something wrong?

Most of the time I'm fighting DE and Orks, When I find myself fighting DE usually my friend with have some absurd amount of overwatch to basically tear through my guys B4 I even get to him, then my Champion gets put into a kill box with some IC like Lilith =/

One game I put a Lord of Slanesh with a squad of Chosen all using LCs and although the Chosen did fine for the most part (Stupid dodge is bullcrap on Bloodbrides) my Lord died to Lilith before he even got to strike =/

I love my army, but I'm finding my tactics running pretty much on fumes against DE...

But back on topic, why do all of our Champions have 1W :(
Heck even our Terminator Champions have only 1W =/

because champions are almost always 1W.

First, consider how much you are paying for a powerfist and a plasma pistol(40 points). Plasma pistols are almost always bad deals and powerfists are only really good on guys with 2+ saves and init 3 or less. If you want to win challenges go with naked champions(as then you can have more of them) or go with a single lightning claw. You could go with a maul, but I doubt that would really give you the instant satisfaction results you want.

against DE, ignore the challenges. DE characters come in two varieties. The kind that a naked SM or CSM champion can kill very easily or the kind that even the nastiest chaos lord will have trouble getting a chance to strike against. There are things in the game that can kill a tooled out archon in close combat, they are few and far between and in any event it is almost always better to just shoot them.

My advice would be to pick your targets better.

Against DE your powerfist is about as good as your power sword... it just costs way more. You are always going to be striking last.

CSM don't feel like they make for a very good assault army these days. They have some good harrier units and some neat meatgrinder blobs but it's a bit of an uphill battle. DE is a hard army to be assaulting effectively too.

Umm never take plasma pistols. You'll probably get one plasma shot out of them per game on average, and that's not worth 15 points.

Chosen also tend to cost very close to a similarly equipped terminator when kitted for close combat, it's not usually a good idea.

Don't lament your champions not being good at something! Be excited that the game hasn't forced that cost down their throat and made the unit only cost effective when it's doing that one thing. So champions tend to suck in close combat, or even have a nerf built into them for it, maybe it's time to start building units that don't rely so much on champions?

Plasma pistols are really bad. Ditch them. You may get to fire them twice, maybe three times each game, and they are usually only placed in units that want to be in CC all the time (and therefore not shooting).

A combi-weapon on a champion is usually a much better choice. I put combi-flamers of me melta squads to give them some flexibility agaisnt hordes, and combi-meltas or plasma on my flamer/mixed squads to pop transports or ID characters if the chance presents itself.

As for champions, they are best left naked so you can feed them to the mandatory challenges and let your actual HQs do the real ass-kicking. If you must, make only one champion your designated dueling guy. Marking him with Nurgle might help him survive against non-powerfist enemies. Otherwise, lightning claws are a good bet. It's important that you try to never strike last and hit and wound as much as you can: force saves and eventually even 2+ armor enemies will fall.

Two things that fall under more general tactics, that I think you've missed.

1) charge with multiple units, and charge with the least important one first. This mitigates Overwatch since any one unit can only Overwatch once, your follow-up units won't get shot at all. Your opponent can choose to save Overwatch for the other units but if that first unit makes it into base contact, they won't get to Overwatch *AT ALL*.
2) Put your killy characters (ie that Lord you mentioned) in a unit with another character already. When in combat, you can have the Champion make/take the challenge, leaving your Lord free to whale on the unit. This is actually a fantastic outcome even against Lilith because it means she would only cause 1 Wound on the Champion - your Lord is almost guaranteed to win the combat and send them packing. (...unless she's Fearless - she's not, is she...?)