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Here is a quote from the BRB Talking about psykers manifesting witchfire powers:

he can manifest only
one witchfire power - regardless of its subtype (see below).
However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per
turn, he can use a different witchfire power in place of each
(assuming he has enough Warp Charge).

Here is one about pistols:

All Pistols are effectively Assault 1 weapons.

and another

Any models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase.
This follows the normal rules for shooting.

So, by the rules, if a psyker has the option to dual wield, can he in turn shoot two witchfire powers? I would say yes, it is possible. Honestly i think this would only apply to CSM because the sorcerer has the option to buy a plasma pistol in place of his force weapon. He is then equipped with a plasma and a bolt pistol.

Also, would you be able to shoot one witchfire and one pistol? It says that he "can use a different witchfire in place of each" and it doesn't say that he has to. So you could bust out a witchfire and a plasma shot (or a bolt shot if you are afraid of the "gets hot" rule) in the same turn of shooting.



Any thoughts?
Let me know what you think,
Thisisnotpancho

Gunslinger states a model armed with two pistols can fire BOTH in the shooting phase. The word both referring to the pistols. Unless you are firing the pistols the special rule that allows you to fire two weapons never takes effect.

I believe you are misreading the rule. The limiting factor is whether or not he is armed with two pistols, not whether or not he is firing both. It is not required for him to be firing both for him to be able to fire both. If he is armed with two, he can shoot both, but does not have to. If he "can shoot" more than one ranged weapon per turn (meaning if he is able to fire two), he is able to manifest another witchfire in the same shooting phase in place of each.

Using a witchfire in place of one of the pistols does not take away his ability to be able to fire two weapons (being pistols) in the same shooting phase, which is what is required to fire another witchfire.

Gunslinger does not give a general rule that allows a model to fire two weapons . It specifies what two weapons he can fire using the gunslinger rule. Those weapons being the pistols. If you are not firing those weapons you are not allowed to fire two weapons. Its very specific on what you are allowed to fire. If you are not firing the pistols you are not granted permission to fire two weapons. Therefore not allowed to use two witchfire abilities.

If you are not firing the pistols you are not granted permission to fire two weapons. Therefore not allowed to use two witchfire abilities.

Whether or not you are able to fire two witchfire powers depends on whether or not you are able to fire two (more than one) weapon(s) in the shooting phase. It does not matter what these weapons are, only that you are able to fire two (more than one). If you are able to do this, then you can manifest two witchfire powers in place of each. The Gunslinger rule states that if he is armed with two pistols, then he has the ability to fire two. Ergo meaning that he has the ability to fire two weapons, because he can fire two pistols, and pistols are weapons.

I tend to concur that Gunslinger does not give you de facto permission to use two Witchfire powers.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I tend to concur that Gunslinger does not give you de facto permission to use two Witchfire powers.

It seems weird that a pistol would give you the ability to manifest another witchfire power, but i honestly believe that it is legal per the RAW.

It seems "beardy" but at the same legit.

Your ignoring the restrictions of gunslinger . psykers can manifest 2 powers IF he can shoot more than one weapon per turn. However if your not firing pistols per gunslinger rules you cannot fire more than one. If you replace a pistol with a manifested power you no long meet the requirements for gunslinger so its rule never takes effect and you cannot fire two weapons.

Backlash wrote:
Your ignoring the restrictions of gunslinger . psykers can manifest 2 powers IF he can shoot more than one weapon per turn. However if your not firing pistols per gunslinger rules you cannot fire more than one. If you replace a pistol with a manifested power you no long meet the requirements for gunslinger so its rule never takes effect and you cannot fire two weapons.

Actually I'm not.

Can the model shoot more than 1 weapon per turn?

He has two pistols, so yes he can.

You use a witchfire instead of a ranged weapon IIRC.

Witchfire for pistol-A
Witchfire for pistol-B

By that logic i can both shoot a pistol and throw a grenade as well. Your trying to state that gunslinger is in effect at all times when it is not. Its only manifested when two pistols are fired. The rule allows you to fire 2 weapons only when they are pistols. Beyond that it grants no other function and or permission. Your trying to state that it grants an all around fire two weapons rule, that it just doesnt give. 40K rule set is permissive, Gunslinger grants permission to fire two weapons under certain circumstances. If you do not meet those requirements the ability is not given.

Backlash wrote:
By that logic i can both shoot a pistol and throw a grenade as well. Your trying to state that gunslinger is in effect at all times when it is not. Its only manifested when two pistols are fired. The rule allows you to fire 2 weapons only when they are pistols. Beyond that it grants no other function and or permission. Your trying to state that it grants an all around fire two weapons rule, that it just doesnt give. 40K rule set is permissive, Gunslinger grants permission to fire two weapons under certain circumstances. If you do not meet those requirements the ability is not given.

The grenade does not say that it takes the pistols place, the witchfire does. This is where your logic is flawed. He can fire only two pistols, but the witchfire take place of those pistols, two of which can be fired. Therefore, two witchfires can be fired.

"Witchfire powers aer manifested in the psyker's shooting phase instead of firing a weapon."

First sentence of witchfire powers. The original psychic power is fired instead of your weapons. No pistols, no gunslinger. No gunslinger, no 2 powers.

Backlash wrote:
"Witchfire powers aer manifested in the psyker's shooting phase instead of firing a weapon."

First sentence of witchfire powers. The original psychic power is fired instead of your weapons. No pistols, no gunslinger. No gunslinger, no 2 powers.

Ahem...
Let me cite a extract from page 69...
"Even if a psyker has a special rule allowing him to manifest more than one psychic power a turn, he can manifest only one witchfire power- regardless of it's subtype. However if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can use a different witchfire power in place of each (assuming he has enough warp charges.)"
Then the gunslinger rule on page 52.
"All models with two pistols can fire both in the shooting phase. They follow the normal rules for shooting."

so we break it down like so....
Can the model make multiple shooting attacks? (Yes, due to the Gunslinger USR.)
Can the model shoot more than one ranged weapon per turn? (Yes, due to the Gunslinger USR.)
Can the model use a witchfire power in place of shooting his pistol(s)? (Yes, due to the Witchfire rules)

This leads us to the (il)logical conclusion that a psyker CAN earn an extra witchfire power use by taking two pistols.
Of course this is STRICT READ AS WRITTEN. It's kind of silly, but i guess it kind of makes sense....kind of....

Any models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase.
This follows the normal rules for shooting.

You can fire two pistols. Not two weapons. The weapons much be pistols as shown in the Gunslinger rule. If you have two pistols, you can fire both.
"Both" does not mean "any weapon of your choosing", it refers to the two pistols just mentioned.
As soon as you fire something that isn't a pistol, the gunslinger rule no longer applies.

I agree, it's a very specific permission to fire 2 pistols. It doesn't say you may fire two weapons in a blanket statement it says you may fire both pistols.

Since the permissive ruleset allows you to fire both pistols when armed with 2 pistols, you need a quote to allow you to sub out the pistols in gunslinger. This is different from a MC with 2 witchfire powers who has the ability innately to fire two weapons regardless.

Even if he is not firing two pistols (manifesting a witchfire instead), it does not take away his ability to fire both pistols (weapons) in the shooting phase, which is what is needed two manifest another witchfire in place of the other pistol. The Gunslinger rule does not state that if he is firing a witchfire in place of a pistol, that it takes away his ability to shoot two. It does not matter whether or not that they have to be pistols, as the witchfire are being manifested in place of each. Even though the gunslinger rule gives him permission to only fire two pistols, it still meets the requirements to fire another witchfire. The witchfire then take the place of the ability to fire a weapon (pistol).

That is not how a permissive ruleset works.

The line "it doesn't say I can't" isn't part of the rules, it must say you can.

The ability it grants is to fire 2 pistols NOT any two weapons. If you don't fire pistols you have no permission to fire two weapons.

So the model can fire 1 weapon. If it has 2 pistols(specific excemption) it may fire a second shot. If it wants to fire a witchfire it counts as firing a weapon.
So if I fire my bolt piston, I cannot normally fire smite. If I fire my bolt pistol I may also fire my plasma pistol but still cannot fire witchfire as I have no permission to fire any weapon ONLY a pistol.

I tend to agree that RAW you can use two witch powers.

There's no limitation on the type of weapon that must be fired, just that you must have the ability to fire two weapons. Gunslinger allows you to do this, even if those two weapons are both pistols. Imposing a limitation of type of weapon is nowhere in the rule.

I wouldn't play it that way, as it does indeed seem "beardy".

So if there's a model that can purchase two bolt pistols and two plasma guns, it could fire the two plasma guns?

After all, if he can fire two weapons and there's no restriction on what the actual thing that shoots is...

rigeld2 wrote:
So if there's a model that can purchase two bolt pistols and two plasma guns, it could fire the two plasma guns?

After all, if he can fire two weapons and there's no restriction on what the actual thing that shoots is...

This.
This is the logical outcome of the OP's idea.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So if there's a model that can purchase two bolt pistols and two plasma guns, it could fire the two plasma guns?

After all, if he can fire two weapons and there's no restriction on what the actual thing that shoots is...

This.
This is the logical outcome of the OP's idea.

Not even close, but nice try.

Psychic shooting attacks specifically give you permission to use them instead of firing another weapon. That is what allows you to exchange the 2 shots from your pistols, because we have permission to use a whitcfire instead of firing ANY weapon, and we can shoot with 2 pistols. Think about it.

Neronoxx wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So if there's a model that can purchase two bolt pistols and two plasma guns, it could fire the two plasma guns?

After all, if he can fire two weapons and there's no restriction on what the actual thing that shoots is...

This.
This is the logical outcome of the OP's idea.

Not even close, but nice try.

Psychic shooting attacks specifically give you permission to use them instead of firing another weapon. That is what allows you to exchange the 2 shots from your pistols, because we have permission to use a whitcfire instead of firing ANY weapon, and we can shoot with 2 pistols. Think about it.

Problem with that is, as soon as you fire something that isn't a pistol, you no longer have permission to fire two pistols.
If you use two Witchfires, you've broken the gunslinger rule by not using both pistols, and have no permission to use two Witchfires.

Neronoxx wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So if there's a model that can purchase two bolt pistols and two plasma guns, it could fire the two plasma guns?

After all, if he can fire two weapons and there's no restriction on what the actual thing that shoots is...

This.
This is the logical outcome of the OP's idea.

Not even close, but nice try.

Psychic shooting attacks specifically give you permission to use them instead of firing another weapon. That is what allows you to exchange the 2 shots from your pistols, because we have permission to use a whitcfire instead of firing ANY weapon, and we can shoot with 2 pistols. Think about it.

Psychic attacks are instead of another weapon. Firing a pistol allows you to fire a second pistol only, not another weapon(which would be a blanket permission). These
So to clarify, you may fire 1 weapon(general permission).
If you have 2 pistols you may fire two pistols (specific permission).
If you can cast a witchfire power you may do so instead of firing another weapon(this applies to general weapons not special cases).

Nice try but still not the rules.

Gunslinger gives a single exception to the normal rules for firing only one weapon and that exception only applies to pistols.

What the Witchfire rule is refering to is things like Walkers and Monstrous Creatures which can fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase.

He can use two witchfire because he can fire two weapons. Pistols are weapons. Both rules are satisfied because in the case of the second witchfire he replacing firing the second gun. Some interpretations here by some of you strike me as odd since the majority agrees on RAW. READ AS WRITTEN the rules aew satisfied.;

However there are not many that can do this but a deamon prince comes to mind since they can fire two weapons per turn also the chaos socerers. Not sure anyone else has the option for gunslinger.

Lungpickle wrote:
tHE RULE TO USE A SECOND WITCHFIRE ALLOWS YOU BECAUSE YOU CAN FIRE TWO PISTOLS.

Which works whenever you find two things: 1) Two different witchfire powers with the 'pistol' special rule available to one character 2) The caps lock key

I don't believe so, see my above post.

however, if it was the case, you would actually have to have 2 pistols as your equipment as thats the only way to get the Gunslinger rule. Having the option for 2 pistols wouldn't be enough.

Lungpickle wrote:
tHE RULE TO USE A SECOND WITCHFIRE ALLOWS YOU BECAUSE YOU CAN FIRE TWO PISTOLS.

Citation please?

You can fire two pistols.
If you're not shooting two pistols, you have no permission to use the Gunslinger rule, and can't fire two weapons.