Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 grendel083 wrote:
So you've used a rule unique to Pistol Weapons without using a Pistol weapon? And this isn't breaking that rule? It definitely is.
You've fired two Witchfires without the ability to fire two weapons (as Gunslinger has been violated). Another rule broken.
In addition you should have broken your rulebook. As your opponent would have rightly hit you with it.

You have the ability to fire two weapons once you have armed yourself with two pistols. You still have it even if you don't fire two pistols. Gunslinger has not and will not be violated. The witchfire is the rule you are using once you arm youself with two pistols. I believe you are getting emotional with this. I am trying to convince you that this process is completely legal, which i honestly believe it is, and you are conveying that you wish for me to be hurt. Let's keep it not personal and strictly rules discussion.

Haven't read the entire thread but I would say that since the witchfire rule says you use the power "in place of each (weapon)" instead of "counting as firing each weapon" or some such similar wording, you wouldn't be able to use gunslinger rules for firing two witchfire powers.

But if this has been brought up already, sorry for the rehash and just ignore me. Just wanted to put in my $.02

Well the witchfire states that you can. That alone gives you the right to shoot two. The only requirement is the ability to fire two weapons in the shooting phase, which arming yourself with two pistols satisfies.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Well the witchfire states that you can. That alone gives you the right to shoot two. The only requirement is the ability to fire two weapons in the shooting phase, which arming yourself with two pistols satisfies.

Provided that the only weapons you fire are those pistols. the gunslinger rule says, "may fire both in the shooting phase." not "may fire both pistols or any other shooting attacks." Both in this case is clearly referring to the pistols.

The pistols are weapons. Therefore the model has the ability to fire two weapons in the shooting phase. The Witchfire then states that he in fact can shoot two witchfires in place of each. The gunslinger pistol specificity does not affect the ability to fire two, which is the only requirement to shoot two witchfires.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
The pistols are weapons. Therefore the model has the ability to fire two weapons in the shooting phase. The Witchfire then states that he in fact can shoot two witchfires in place of each. The gunslinger pistol specificity does not affect the ability to fire two, which is the only requirement to shoot two witchfires.

The model has permission to fire two weapons, provided they are both pistols, if you're not firing those pistols, the gunslinger rule doesn't apply because your not using the equipment that grant you the rules.

This is like claiming your character has armourbane when he shoots because he has meltabombs.

The analogy is irrelevant. This is not close to what we are talking about. The witchfire does not care for any specificity of the weapons being fired, only that the model has the ability to fire two. Once the model is armed with two, he gains that ability. Then he may proceed to shoot two witchfires in the shooting phase.

But the gunslinger rules only allows you to fire both pistols, its an exception to the normal rule of non-monstrous creatures only being able to fire one weapon, if you're not firing both pistols, you can only make one shooting attack.

It does not matter what type of weapon the gunslinger allows. What matters is that it allows the model to fire two, which is the only requirement to fire two witchfires.

witchfires are not pistols, gunslinger allows you to fire both pistol type weapons if the model is equipped with them. The main rules limit non-monstrous creature to firing one weapon or whitchfire attack ortherwise.

in other words, yes you get permission to fire twice, but that permission is rescinded if your not using the weapons specified.

No it is not, you still have the ability to fire two pistols if you are armed with two. Once again, that is the only requirement to fire two witchfires.
If you shoot with one witchfire, it does not take away your ability to shoot with two pistols in the shooting phase, which is the only requirement to shoot another witchfire. Once again, the gunslinger specifies that the model can shoot two pistols, but this specification does not change the witchfire rule, because it does not matter what type of weapon you are shooting, only that you have the ability to fire two.

After you've fired that first whichfire, you've made your shooting attack for the turn. whitchfire attacks don't have the gunslinger rule. therefore you've done all the shooting attacks your allowed to.

This is exactly like claiming your shooting attacks have armourbane because you have metabombs, the armourbane should only work in close combat when using the meltabomb, by your logic every attack made by the model has armourbane too simply because he has equipment that grants him that rule.

Once again the analogy is not relevant. It does not matter if witchfires don't have the gunslinger rule, only that the model does. He gains that rule when he is equipped with two pistols. Once he has two pistols, he satisfies all of the requirements to fire two witchfires. It does not matter if he fired one or two witchfires yet, he still has the ability to fire more than one weapon in the shooting phase. Those weapons are pistols, but, once again, the witchfire power only matters if he has the ability to shoot more than one ranged weapon. It does not matter if the weapons are specified. When he equips himself with two, he gains that ability. Once he has that ability, he can shoot more than one witchfire per turn. In this case it is two.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Well the witchfire states that you can. That alone gives you the right to shoot two. The only requirement is the ability to fire two weapons in the shooting phase, which arming yourself with two pistols satisfies.

But you're looking at only one part of the rule(s) and not the entire thing. Again, the witchfire rule of firing two powers if you can fire two weapons is "in place of" not "Counts as" or any other such thing. It's the same reasoning that Walkers and MC's shouldn't be allowed to fire any more weapons if they fire an gun emplacement. Gunslinger lets you fire two pistols, not two weapons. Yes, pistols are weapons but the rule (Gunslinger) is specific to what they are allowed to do, which is restrictive. Monstrous Creatures, for instance, are allowed to fire two of their own weapons (and walkers can fire all of their own weapons). These types would be allowed to follow the witchfire rule as the wording is the same.

Look at it this way...you're normally allowed to eat one apple (weapon) or one orange (Witchfire). Today you can eat two apples. So you eat one orange, are you still allowed to eat an apple? Are you allowed to eat another orange?

What i'm getting at is if you fire a witchfire then are you allowed to fire your pistol still?

 Kevin949 wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Well the witchfire states that you can. That alone gives you the right to shoot two. The only requirement is the ability to fire two weapons in the shooting phase, which arming yourself with two pistols satisfies.

But you're looking at only one part of the rule(s) and not the entire thing. Again, the witchfire rule of firing two powers if you can fire two weapons is "in place of" not "Counts as" or any other such thing. It's the same reasoning that Walkers and MC's shouldn't be allowed to fire any more weapons if they fire an gun emplacement. Gunslinger lets you fire two pistols, not two weapons. Yes, pistols are weapons but the rule (Gunslinger) is specific to what they are allowed to do, which is restrictive. Monstrous Creatures, for instance, are allowed to fire two of their own weapons (and walkers can fire all of their own weapons). These types would be allowed to follow the witchfire rule as the wording is the same.

Look at it this way...you're normally allowed to eat one apple (weapon) or one orange (Witchfire). Today you can eat two apples. So you eat one orange, are you still allowed to eat an apple?

Okay, i will go along with this whole analogy thing. In this case the oranges state that if you can eat more than one fruit, you can eat two oranges in place of each fruit. Can you eat more than one fruit in one day? yes you can, so therefore you can eat two oranges in one day in place of each fruit.


See how confusing it gets with analogies?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:

What i'm getting at is if you fire a witchfire then are you allowed to fire your pistol still?

I would believe so, as the witchfire allows you to fire a witchfire in place of the weapon, but does not make you. So you would be firing two pistols, and then you would use one witchfire in place of one of them. At least that is my view of it. This rule gets even more complicated, so i'm going to just stick to firing two witchfires.

thisisnotpancho wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Well the witchfire states that you can. That alone gives you the right to shoot two. The only requirement is the ability to fire two weapons in the shooting phase, which arming yourself with two pistols satisfies.

But you're looking at only one part of the rule(s) and not the entire thing. Again, the witchfire rule of firing two powers if you can fire two weapons is "in place of" not "Counts as" or any other such thing. It's the same reasoning that Walkers and MC's shouldn't be allowed to fire any more weapons if they fire an gun emplacement. Gunslinger lets you fire two pistols, not two weapons. Yes, pistols are weapons but the rule (Gunslinger) is specific to what they are allowed to do, which is restrictive. Monstrous Creatures, for instance, are allowed to fire two of their own weapons (and walkers can fire all of their own weapons). These types would be allowed to follow the witchfire rule as the wording is the same.

Look at it this way...you're normally allowed to eat one apple (weapon) or one orange (Witchfire). Today you can eat two apples. So you eat one orange, are you still allowed to eat an apple?

Okay, i will go along with this whole analogy thing. In this case the oranges state that if you can eat more than one fruit, you can eat two oranges in place of each fruit. Can you eat more than one fruit in one day? yes you can, so therefore you can eat two oranges in one day in place of each fruit.


See how confusing it gets with analogies?

Read the edit.

And no, it's not really confusing unless you make it confusing. To use the analogy for MC's or even walkers, would be less so as their wording for shooting is near identical to the clause witchfire is looking for so all the fruit would be apples, or oranges, or banana's, or kiwi's...whatever.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I would believe so, as the witchfire allows you to fire a witchfire in place of the weapon, but does not make you. So you would be firing two pistols, and then you would use one witchfire in place of one of them. At least that is my view of it. This rule gets even more complicated, so i'm going to just stick to firing two witchfires.

You can't, though. You can't discount a possible scenario that would break what you propose just because it's complicated. "In place of" is not the same as "counts as". By what you're saying then a model with two pistols could fire a gun emplacement and a pistol in the same turn as well. Or indeed do anything that is considered a shooting attack AND fire a pistol weapon as well. Your implication on witchfire does not just affect witchfire in regards to gunslinger.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Read the edit.

And no, it's not really confusing unless you make it confusing. To use the analogy for MC's or even walkers, would be less so as their wording for shooting is near identical to the clause witchfire is looking for so all the fruit would be apples, or oranges, or banana's, or kiwi's...whatever.

I read your edit and provided my opinion.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I don't think analogies work in this instance.

thisisnotpancho wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Read the edit.

And no, it's not really confusing unless you make it confusing. To use the analogy for MC's or even walkers, would be less so as their wording for shooting is near identical to the clause witchfire is looking for so all the fruit would be apples, or oranges, or banana's, or kiwi's...whatever.

I read your edit and provided my opinion.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I don't think analogies work in this instance.

Yes, well, timing on refreshes here is not up to par yet. Heh. Continuing on...above.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
You have the ability to fire two weapons once you have armed yourself with two pistols.

False. You have the ability to fire two pistols, not any other type of weapons. Unless you can prove that a witchfire is of the specific type of weapon known as a 'pistol' then it can not be used with the Gunslinger rule.

 Kevin949 wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I would believe so, as the witchfire allows you to fire a witchfire in place of the weapon, but does not make you. So you would be firing two pistols, and then you would use one witchfire in place of one of them. At least that is my view of it. This rule gets even more complicated, so i'm going to just stick to firing two witchfires.

You can't, though. You can't discount a possible scenario that would break what you propose just because it's complicated. "In place of" is not the same as "counts as". By what you're saying then a model with two pistols could fire a gun emplacement and a pistol in the same turn as well. Or indeed do anything that is considered a shooting attack AND fire a pistol weapon as well. Your implication on witchfire does not just affect witchfire in regards to gunslinger.

If the quad gun stated that "if the model has the ability to fire two weapons, it may instead choose to fire the quad gun in place of one" then yes. And yes i do think that this would work, because the witchfire rule states that you may use one witchfire in place of a weapon if you are able to fire two. He indeed is able to fire two pistols, and therefore can use one witchfire in place of one of the pistols.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
You have the ability to fire two weapons once you have armed yourself with two pistols.

False. You have the ability to fire two pistols, not any other type of weapons. Unless you can prove that a witchfire is of the specific type of weapon known as a 'pistol' then it can not be used with the Gunslinger rule.

The gunslinger rule provides him the ability to fire two weapons if he is armed with two pistols. Those weapons are pistols, but the witchfire rule only cares for his ability to fire more than one weapon. It does not care for any restrictions on the type of weapon, only that he can be able to fire two.

thisisnotpancho wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I would believe so, as the witchfire allows you to fire a witchfire in place of the weapon, but does not make you. So you would be firing two pistols, and then you would use one witchfire in place of one of them. At least that is my view of it. This rule gets even more complicated, so i'm going to just stick to firing two witchfires.

You can't, though. You can't discount a possible scenario that would break what you propose just because it's complicated. "In place of" is not the same as "counts as". By what you're saying then a model with two pistols could fire a gun emplacement and a pistol in the same turn as well. Or indeed do anything that is considered a shooting attack AND fire a pistol weapon as well. Your implication on witchfire does not just affect witchfire in regards to gunslinger.

If the quad gun stated that "if the model has the ability to fire two weapons, it may instead choose to fire the quad gun in place of one" then yes. And yes i do think that this would work, because the witchfire rule states that you may use one witchfire in place of a weapon if you are able to fire two. He indeed is able to fire two pistols, and therefore can use one witchfire in place of one of the pistols.

Well, you're not firing a pistol then if you use a witchfire power. So anywho, you seem deadset in your way and I feel that no amount of showing you the rules is going to change anything in your mind so my suggestion to you is to submit your question to the GW FAQ email (found in the GW FAQ). You will not get a response from them but it will be put to consideration for the next FAQ.

So I say to you, play it how you want (if your opponents will allow it, which I doubt) and I'm sure the rest here will play it how they feel is right. Just don't be shocked when it's ruled that a specific rule overrides a general rule.

 Kevin949 wrote:


Well, you're not a firing a pistol then if you use a witchfire power. So anywho, you seem deadset in your way and I feel that no amount of showing you the rules is going to change anything in your mind so my suggestion to you is to submit your question to the GW FAQ email (found in the GW FAQ). You will not get a response from them but it will be put to consideration for the next FAQ.

So I say to you, play it how you want (if your opponents will allow it, which I doubt) and I'm sure the rest here will play it how they feel is right. Just don't be shocked when it's ruled that a specific rule overrides a general rule.

That is what i plan to do. Thank you for the suggestion to submit my rule to the GW FAQ. It seems like the best possible route of action at this point. If i were to use this rule, I would show the rule to my opponent/TO and see what their ruling on it is. Plus I usually play daemons and do not equip myself with two pistols and a psyker above mastery level one, so i don't forsee this coming up any time soon.

thisisnotpancho wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:


Well, you're not a firing a pistol then if you use a witchfire power. So anywho, you seem deadset in your way and I feel that no amount of showing you the rules is going to change anything in your mind so my suggestion to you is to submit your question to the GW FAQ email (found in the GW FAQ). You will not get a response from them but it will be put to consideration for the next FAQ.

So I say to you, play it how you want (if your opponents will allow it, which I doubt) and I'm sure the rest here will play it how they feel is right. Just don't be shocked when it's ruled that a specific rule overrides a general rule.

That is what i plan to do. Thank you for the suggestion to submit my rule to the GW FAQ. It seems like the best possible route of action at this point. If i were to use this rule, I would show the rule to my opponent/TO and see what their ruling on it is. Plus I usually play daemons and do not equip myself with two pistols and a psyker above mastery level one, so i don't forsee this coming up any time soon.

So you don't use english to read the rules, you don't use logic to follow the steps in an argument and we are wrong because there isn't an faq to say that the rules are not permissive.
Good job.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
The gunslinger rule provides him the ability to fire two weapons if he is armed with two pistols.

Still false. The Gunslinger rule does not allow him to fire two weapons, only two pistols.

A spirited, healthy debate is something to be lauded. Sticking to your guns (be them pistols or otherwise) is also to be lauded.

Doggedly pursuing a line of logic that has been clearly disproven as RAW in several ways —not to mention violating the spirit of the game and almost certainly not HYWPI for most individuals— is not laudable... in fact, it's really rather silly.

A wise man once said (granted, it was about MFA, but still) ask yourself this question: Am I arguing this issue because I truly believe I am right?... or am I arguing because I want to be right?

That answer will speak volumes about where you truly stand on this issue. After that, it's up to you to reach a reasonable, personal conclusion.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
A wise man once said (granted, it was about MFA, but still) ask yourself this question: Am I arguing this issue because I truly believe I am right?... or am I arguing because I want to be right?

I've known a few players that can argue their interpretation of something until everyone else gives up and plays it their way. Ofc, everyone started finding reasons to not play them but at least they got people to give up arguing that their way isn't the right way.

The answer to this is simple, and was stated a few pages ago. You have permission to use the two witchfires in place of any two weapons.
But gunslinger only works when firing pistols.
So you declare the first witchfire fire, and guess what?
Witchfires are assualt weapons.
So the tactic breaks down upon implementation.
Thats how this works. To disprove this you need a witchfire that counts as a pistol type. Otherwise you're still limited to a witchfire, another gun, or two pistols a turn.

Witchfire:

However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per turn he can use a different witchfire power in place of each.

Gunslinger:

A model with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase.

A model with two pistols can fire two pistols. Pistols are weapons. A model with two pistols can use two witchfire powers.

The problem is that the witchfire powers are used in place of a weapon. So if a model can fire two weapons (say a über magical wraithlord with two big guns) the model can fire one of those and one witchfire, two guns, two witchfires, one witchfire, one gun or nothing.

When a model with two pistols is shooting, he can choose to use psychic powers, guns or a combination of previous.

The question is: When does the substitution happen?

a) Select normal weapons -> switch to witchfires
b) Select normal weapons and/or witchfires -> no substitutions
c) something different

Examples:

a) Our über wraithlord chooses to fire with big gun A and big gun B. Our über wraithlord switches big gun A to power X and big gun B to power Y.

Or

Gunslinger fires with pistol A. This allows him to fire another pistol B as well (Gunslinger). Gunslinger switches pistol A to power X and pistol B to power Y.

Note that here Gunslinger is firing a pistol -> firing another pistol -> substituting -> All ok.

or

Tyranid Blargh with melee only weapons can't use any witchfire powers because he has no shooting weapons to switch to witchfires. :/

b) Our über wraithlord chooses to use powers X and Y in place of guns A and B.

or

Gunslinger chooses to use Power X in place of firing a pistol. Here we can't use multiple powers because we don't have guns to substitute.

or

Tyranid Blargh with melee only weapons can't use any witchfire powers because he has no shooting weapons. :/

CSM Daemon Princes can't do it either if they don't take the marine killing flamer thingie.

c) ??????


Oh dear. It looks like I broke the rules.

 kaapelikala wrote:
Gunslinger fires with pistol A. This allows him to fire another pistol B as well (Gunslinger). Gunslinger switches pistol A to power X and pistol B to power Y.

Note that here Gunslinger is firing a pistol -> firing another pistol -> substituting -> All ok.

This part is wrong.
No need to repeat why, there are 7 pages of why this is wrong.

It's very simple guys you declare your shooting attacks in one go. If you declare you are using a pistol you can shoot a second at the same time. If you want to use witchfire you must declare that. It is very much an either or decision.

You cannot say "I'm shooting a bolt and plasma pistol" to get the gunslinger rule then start rolling psychic tests.

Now if you find me two "pistol" profile witchfires then I will gladly let you fire those two.