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You dont need to fire the pistols. You only need to be able to fire them.

Polecat wrote:
You dont need to fire the pistols. You only need to be able to fire them.

False.

Polecat wrote:
You dont need to fire the pistols. You only need to be able to fire them.

Totally false.
The rule states both pistols, the moment you try to use anything else, Gunslinger and any permissions it grants, are gone.

However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per
turn, he can use a different witchfire power in place of each

The rule is asking: can he shoot more than one weapon?

Or: is he able to fire more than one weapon?

Is he?

Gunslinger rule makes him able to fire both pistols. Are pistols weapons? Yes they are.


Therefore the answer to the question "can he shoot more than one weapon" is yes.

You have now met the condition to replace the pistol shots for witchfire.


Therefore you dont need to fire the pistols. You only need to be able to fire them.

Is he shooting two pistols? No.
Does he have permission to use the Gunslinger rule? No.
Can he fire two weapons, (taking into account the model may no longer use the Gunslinger rule)? No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polecat wrote:
Therefore you dont need to fire the pistols. You only need to be able to fire them.

Totally wrong, if not using two pistols, you have absolutely no permission to use the gunslinger rule. You may therefore not fire two weapons.

Pistols are weapons, Witchfire aren't pistols. Your permission to use gunslinger vanishes, breaking two rules in the process (gunslinger ad Witchfire).

 grendel083 wrote:
Is he shooting two pistols? No.

No. He is checking for permission to fire two pistols. Once that check is passed, it is passed and thats it.


He can now choose to fire those said pistols, or he can choose to replace the pistols shots for witchfire.

Wrong, because he's only given permuission to fire two pistols. Once again, you're trying to turn a specific rule (firing two pistols) into a general rule (firing two weapons). You can not do that.

 Ghaz wrote:
Once again, you're trying to turn a specific rule (firing two pistols) into a general rule (firing two weapons). You can not do that.

Pistols are weapons. If you can fire two weapons, you can replace them with witchfire.

Polecat wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Once again, you're trying to turn a specific rule (firing two pistols) into a general rule (firing two weapons). You can not do that.

Pistols are weapons. If you can fire two weapons, you can replace them with witchfire.

You have permission to fire two specific weapons. You do not have permission to fire two general weapons, which is what the psyker rules require.

I think thats reading too far into it. The rule only talks about weapons and pistols qualify for weapons.

You would need a specific rule to forbid using the gunslinger rule for this.

Polecat wrote:
I think thats reading too far into it. The rule only talks about weapons and pistols qualify for weapons.

You would need a specific rule to forbid using the gunslinger rule for this.

Gunslinger is the rule that prevents it.
Because it only gives permission to fire both pistols. It doesn't give permission to fire more than one thing if its not a pistol.

Polecat wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Once again, you're trying to turn a specific rule (firing two pistols) into a general rule (firing two weapons). You can not do that.

Pistols are weapons. If you can fire two weapons, you can replace them with witchfire.

And not all weapons are pistols, yet you're trying to make a rule that applies to a specific subset of weapons apply to any and all weapons and that is patently false.

While an unlikely scenario, what about a model with two pistols that is in base to base contact with two Quad guns? Could he fire both (instead of his pistols) by virtue of the gunslinger rule?

I believe that this is a similar situation as manifesting two witchfire attacks and I think we can all agree that this would be silly.

The previous posters have it right; as soon as you fire something instead of the first pistol (e.g. witchfire, quad gun, etc.), the gunslinger rule no longer applies and you lose the ability to shoot anything else.

DoW

The rule talks about weapons, and that includes any and all weapons. Pistols are weapons, so they are also included in the category of weapons.

As for the Quad gun, if the rule states that it replaces a normal shooting, then i would say that you could fire a pistol and a Quad gun.

And if you somehow could get into base contact with two Quad guns at the same time, then you could fire them both using the gunslinger rule.

It's fairly straight forward really.

Gunslinger allows you to fire two Pistols.
As soon as you fire a non-pistol weapon (which Psychic Shooting Attacks are all Assault or Heavy), you cannot fire 2 weapons via Gunslinger.

There's no 'ifs ands or buts' here, unless you're firing 2 Psychic Shooting Attack that are pistols, Gunslinger does not allow you to fire 2 Psychic Shooting Attacks.

 Ovion wrote:

Gunslinger allows you to fire two Pistols.
As soon as you fire a non-pistol weapon (which Psychic Shooting Attacks are all Assault or Heavy), you cannot fire 2 weapons via Gunslinger.

The allowance is all you need. Then you have the permission to replace the pistol shots.

You guys are pretty short on comprehension it seems.
Firing the pistols is not a requirement of the gunslinger rule. It in fact has no requirements other than a model being armed with two pistols.
Thats it. Thats the ONLY requirement.
So ackowledging that, does witchfire care what weapon we are swapping out? No.
Does Gunslinger state that we HAVE to fire pistols? No.
Does gunslinger state we are allowed two shots with pistols? Yes.
Are pistols weapons? Yes.
Are weapons able to be replaced with a psychic shooting attack? Yes.
Does gunslinger explicitly forbid this? No.
Does witchfire explicitly forbid this? No.

And if a model with gunslinger was in base contact with two gun emplacements he would only be able to fire one, as the rules for gun emplacments say that he must follow the normal rules for shooting, of which gunslinger is not a normal rule.
Gunslinger says the same thing, albeit overriding the volume of fire part.

Long story short: we have permission to use multiple powers. Definetly should be FAQ'd but RAW its there.

Neronoxx wrote:
Does Gunslinger state that we HAVE to fire pistols? No.

So the allowance to fire "both" refers to something other than pistols?
I'm curious - why do you say that?

Nowhere in Gunslinger rule it says that if your weapon swapped for non-pistol then you go back and take permission back.

You have 2 pistols? Yes.

You can fire both your pistols.

Pistol is weapon? Yes.

You have 2 weapons that you can fire in same shooting phase = can fire 2 witchfire.

Must i go back to gunslinger for no reason if i ALREADY MET condition? No.

Is there any rule that says that if you met condition it can be rewoked back if you dont meet it again after swapping weapons?

Neronoxx wrote:
You guys are pretty short on comprehension it seems.
Firing the pistols is not a requirement of the gunslinger rule. It in fact has no requirements other than a model being armed with two pistols. Armed with 2, can shoot both. Not armed with 2, can fire any two weapons it likes.
Thats it. Thats the ONLY requirement.
So ackowledging that, does witchfire care what weapon we are swapping out? No. In this instance, yes, yes it does, because it's based on the weapon type.
Does Gunslinger state that we HAVE to fire pistols? No. Actually, yes it does.
Does gunslinger state we are allowed two shots with pistols? Yes. Keyword - pistols.
Are pistols weapons? Yes. A sub-type of Shooting weapons yes.
Are weapons able to be replaced with a psychic shooting attack? Yes. Instead of firing a weapon, it's effective a weapon fired with its brain.
Does gunslinger explicitly forbid this? No. Yes.
Does witchfire explicitly forbid this? No. Witchfire weapons being Assault or Heavy expressly forbid this.

And if a model with gunslinger was in base contact with two gun emplacements he would only be able to fire one, as the rules for gun emplacments say that he must follow the normal rules for shooting, of which gunslinger is not a normal rule.
Gunslinger says the same thing, albeit overriding the volume of fire part.

Long story short: we have permission to use multiple powers. Definetly should be FAQ'd but RAW its there.

Welp, this whole post is full of wrong. There is no permission to fire 2 psychic powers if you have 2 pistols.

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Pg.52 wrote:Gunslinger
All models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting Phase.
This follows the normal rules for shooting.

This specifies if it has 2 pistols, it can fire both pistols.

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Pg.69 wrote:Witchfire
Witchfire power are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Witchfire powers are often refered to as Psychic Shooting Attacks. Manifesting Witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon (unless otherwise noted).
~rules for rolling to hit/wound~
Even if a Psyker has a special rule allowing him to manifest more than on psychic power per turn, he can manifest only one witchfire power - regardless of its subtype (see below).
However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can use a different Witchfire power in place of each (assuming he has enough Warp Charge).

So if you can normally fire 2 weapons, you can fire 2 Witchfire Powers - such as a Monstrous Creature that can fire 2 guns, or a Dreadnought being able to fire all weapons.
However, as soon as you fire an Assault, Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapon, you are not firing 2 pistols, so cannot 'fire both pistols' and the Gunslinger rule will no longer apply in this situation.

But condition of gunslinger is not firing two pistols, but having them. Two pistols is effect.
Witchfire condition is met so it changes effect of gunslinger.
Or my logic is flawed somewhere?

DarkPhoenix wrote:
But condition of gunslinger is not firing two pistols, but having them. Two pistols is effect.
Witchfire condition is met so it changes effect of gunslinger.
Or my logic is flawed somewhere?

Gunslinger requires both. You must have two pistols and the. You can fire two pistols ("both" must refer to the two pistols in the rule).
You're never permitted to fire anything but 2 pistols. For example, you cannot fire a pistol and a Flamer.

So you can't fire a pistol and a flamer, because the flamer does not have the specific allowance to swap it for another weapon if you can shoot two. The Witchfire does. The Gunslinger rule does not forbid you from using a witchfire in place of it... That is what everyone is assuming here but there is no rule that forbids that. Of course a pistol and a flamer could not be shot together, but witchfires take the place of firing the pistol.

But it says "All models with two pistols CAN fire both in the Shooting Phase"
If other rule changes your weapons your still have the pistols wich is requirement for gunslinger.
Firing them is not requirement, so gunslinger on wich effect witchfire effect is working is still applied.

Does "Special rule overrides general rule" can be applied in this case?

Polecat wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

Gunslinger allows you to fire two Pistols.
As soon as you fire a non-pistol weapon (which Psychic Shooting Attacks are all Assault or Heavy), you cannot fire 2 weapons via Gunslinger.

The allowance is all you need. Then you have the permission to replace the pistol shots.

Once again, that is false. From page 52 of the BRB:

All models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase. This follows the normal rules for shooting.

Fire both what? Both pistols.

Look at it this way. You can separate ranged weapons into one of the five subtypes:

Rapid Fire
Heavy
Assault
Pistol
Witchfire Psychic Powers

Being a Monstrous Creature would allow you to fire two weapons. That by definition would include any combination of weapons. Gunslinger on the other hand applies to only one specific weapon subtype, pistols. The wording of the Gunslinger rules is more specific than the Witchfire rules and does not allow you to fire two Witchfires by way of the Gunslinger rule.

 Ghaz wrote:

Being a Monstrous Creature would allow you to fire two weapons. That by definition would include any combination of weapons. Gunslinger on the other hand applies to only one specific weapon subtype, pistols. The wording of the Gunslinger rules is more specific than the Witchfire rules and does not allow you to fire two Witchfires by way of the Gunslinger rule.

You do not need the wording for the gunslinger rule to allow you to shoot witchfire in place of it. The witchfire rule does that for you. In fact the gunslinger does not stop you from shooting a weapon that specifically takes the place of the pistol, which you assume it does. You do not lose the ability to fire two pistols (being weapons) if you shoot a witchfire in place of one or two of them.

DarkPhoenix wrote:
But it says "All models with two pistols CAN fire both in the Shooting Phase"
If other rule changes your weapons your still have the pistols wich is requirement for gunslinger.
Firing them is not requirement, so gunslinger on wich effect witchfire effect is working is still applied.

Does "Special rule overrides general rule" can be applied in this case?

Wrong.
The requirement is firing both pistols, "can fire BOTH" right there in your quote.

In addition, gunslinger is not a rule the model has, it's a rule that pistols grant. If you're not even using pistols, what gives you permission to use a pistol rule? (Page52) Can you use the AP of a powerfist when attacking with a powersword?
You're no longer using pistols, you have no permission to use the pistol weapon rule Gunslinger.

 grendel083 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:
But it says "All

Wrong.
The requirement is firing both pistols, "can fire BOTH" right there in your quote.

In addition, gunslinger is not a rule the model has, it's a rule that pistols grant. If you're not even using pistols, what gives you permission to use a pistol rule? (Page52) Can you use the AP of a powerfist when attacking with a powersword?
You're no longer using pistols, you have no permission to use the pistol weapon rule Gunslinger.

The "not using pistols" actually makes sense but i disagree with statement that you must FIRE this pistols.
If i have 2 pistols i have gunslinger rule applied to me. Now i chose to fire only one pistol. Gunslinger still applied to me because i have two pistols, i just didnt used the effect("you can" means its optional). Rule applies no matter what this models shoot or dont shoot, it says "All models with two pistols" wich mean every model on the table who have 2 pistols.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:
But it says "All

Wrong.
The requirement is firing both pistols, "can fire BOTH" right there in your quote.

In addition, gunslinger is not a rule the model has, it's a rule that pistols grant. If you're not even using pistols, what gives you permission to use a pistol rule? (Page52) Can you use the AP of a powerfist when attacking with a powersword?
You're no longer using pistols, you have no permission to use the pistol weapon rule Gunslinger.

The "not using pistols" actually makes sense but i disagree with statement that you must FIRE this pistols.
If i have 2 pistols i have gunslinger rule applied to me. Now i chose to fire only one pistol. Gunslinger still applied to me because i have two pistols, i just didnt used the effect("you can" means its optional). Rule applies no matter what this models shoot or dont shoot, it says "All models with two pistols" wich mean every model on the table who have 2 pistols.

True, you can fire both pistols, you're not required to. You may fire only one.
But the moment you fire something that isn't a pistol, then the Pistol Weapon rule Gunslinger, no long applies. The Pistol Weapon now no longer allows the model to fire two weapons.

 grendel083 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:
But it says "All

Wrong.
The requirement is firing both pistols, "can fire BOTH" right there in your quote.

In addition, gunslinger is not a rule the model has, it's a rule that pistols grant. If you're not even using pistols, what gives you permission to use a pistol rule? (Page52) Can you use the AP of a powerfist when attacking with a powersword?
You're no longer using pistols, you have no permission to use the pistol weapon rule Gunslinger.

The "not using pistols" actually makes sense but i disagree with statement that you must FIRE this pistols.
If i have 2 pistols i have gunslinger rule applied to me. Now i chose to fire only one pistol. Gunslinger still applied to me because i have two pistols, i just didnt used the effect("you can" means its optional). Rule applies no matter what this models shoot or dont shoot, it says "All models with two pistols" wich mean every model on the table who have 2 pistols.

True, you can fire both pistols, you're not required to. You may fire only one.
But the moment you fire something that isn't a pistol, then the Pistol Weapon rule Gunslinger, no long applies. The Pistol Weapon now no longer allows the model to fire two weapons.

I agree with this, but you are firing a witchfire in place of a pistol. Not instead. You could not fire a pistol and another ranged weapon that isn't a pistol because it does not specifically state that you can fire it in place of a another ranged weapon that you could fire two of