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 liturgies of blood wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
tHE RULE TO USE A SECOND WITCHFIRE ALLOWS YOU BECAUSE YOU CAN FIRE TWO PISTOLS.

Citation please?

Any models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase.

he can manifest only
one witchfire power - regardless of its subtype (see below).
However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per
turn, he can use a different witchfire power in place of each
(assuming he has enough Warp Charge).

Can he fire more than 1 ranged weapon?
Yes
That's the requirement which the model has met.

But Gunslinger isn't a rule the model has, it's a property of the pistols. When not shooting the pistols, the model has no capability to shoot two weapons.

It does not matter if it is a property of the pistols, he still has the ability to fire two weapons, which is the only requirement for him to shoot two witchfires

He only has that property WHEN shooting two pistols. When he's not, he doesn't.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
It does not matter if it is a property of the pistols, he still has the ability to fire two weapons, which is the only requirement for him to shoot two witchfires

An ability the model does not have if using anything other than pistols.

He has a permission to fire two pistols. Pistols are weapons. Therefore he meets the requirement of being able to shoot two witchfires.

Lets say a psycher has two pistols and a bolter. He can choose to shoot:

-one pistol and one witchfire shot
-two pistol shots
-two witchfire shots
-one bolter shot
-one witchfireshot

 Mannahnin wrote:
He only has that property WHEN shooting two pistols. When he's not, he doesn't.

I think Mannahnin explains it pretty clearly, nowhere in the Gunslinger entry does it give permission for him to fire anything else twice.

Polecat wrote:
He has a permission to fire two pistols. Pistols are weapons. Therefore he meets the requirement of being able to shoot two witchfires.

Lets say a psycher has two pistols and a bolter. He can choose to shoot:

-one pistol and one witchfire shot <------- I disagree with this .... if he fores one pistol he can fire ONLY another pistol. That is the permission given via gunslinger
-two pistol shots<-------- Agreed
-two witchfire shots<--------- Disagree not accessible via Gunslinger rule
-one bolter shot<------- Agree
-one witchfireshot<------- Agree

I have to disagree with the Gunslinger rule allowing you to fire Psyker powers 2 times in one round as the rule only allows it to be pistols.

However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per
turn, he can use a different witchfire power in place of each

Can you shoot two pistols per turn?
Yes.

Are pistols weapons?
Yes.


You dont have to fire the pistols to be able to fire both of them. You only need the permission to fire them.

You are given permission to fire two weapons (pistols) per turn, so now you can "use a different witchfire power in place of each", as quoted.

You're given permission to fire two weapons per turn as long as they're both pistols.

rigeld2 wrote:
You're given permission to fire two weapons per turn as long as they're both pistols.

Yes, but he can use witchfire in place of the pistols, exactly as if he were firing two

Except that statement isn't supported by rules.

rigeld2 wrote:
You're given permission to fire two weapons per turn as long as they're both pistols.

The actual rule is

Any models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase.
This follows the normal rules for shooting.

You seem to suggest that those pistol shots need to be the actual pistol shots and that they can not be replaced with witchfire shots. There is no such restriction in the rules.

Polecat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You're given permission to fire two weapons per turn as long as they're both pistols.

The actual rule is

Any models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase.
This follows the normal rules for shooting.

You seem to suggest that those pistol shots need to be the actual pistol shots and that they can not be replaced with witchfire shots. There is no such restriction in the rules.

It can fire both.
Both what?
Pistols.
If you're firing a whitchfire power, are you firing a pistol?

rigeld2 wrote:

If you're firing a whitchfire power, are you firing a pistol?

Irrelevant question.

The permission to fire two pistols does not disappear when you replace the shots from the pistols for witchfire shots.

Polecat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

If you're firing a whitchfire power, are you firing a pistol?

Irrelevant question.

The permission to fire two pistols does not disappear when you replace the shots from the pistols for witchfire shots.

Except it does. You're given permission to fire two pistols.
If you're not firing two pistols, you don't have two shooting attacks.

rigeld2 wrote:

Except it does. You're given permission to fire two pistols.
If you're not firing two pistols, you don't have two shooting attacks.

You are given permission to fire two weapons that just happen to be pistols.

Then you are given permission to fire a witchfire shot in place of any weapon shot.


Nowhere in the gunslinger rule does it say that those pistol shots can not be replaced with another shots. If you are given permission to replace them, then you can replace them.

if the model has the potential to shoot 2 weapons then he can witchfire twice if he can shoot both pistols (he can) then he can shoot 2 witchfire

Just curious, what ML 2 psyker has 2 pistols ?

Fragile wrote:
Just curious, what ML 2 psyker has 2 pistols ?

Chaos IIRC, think they can trade their Sword for a plasma pistol Pew Pew

Polecat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Except it does. You're given permission to fire two pistols.
If you're not firing two pistols, you don't have two shooting attacks.

You are given permission to fire two weapons that just happen to be pistols.

Then you are given permission to fire a witchfire shot in place of any weapon shot.


Nowhere in the gunslinger rule does it say that those pistol shots can not be replaced with another shots. If you are given permission to replace them, then you can replace them.

It gives you permission to fire both.
Both what? Pistols.

If you aren't firing a pistol, you cannot fire both.

rigeld2 wrote:

It gives you permission to fire both.
Both what? Pistols.

If you aren't firing a pistol, you cannot fire both.

You are given permission to fire both pistols, and then you choose to replace those shots with witchfire.

No rules are broken, because you are given permission to replace the shots with witchfire.

it says you CAN fire it does not say you must fire both so he can use 2 witchfire powers because he CAN shoot 2 different weapons

Polecat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It gives you permission to fire both.
Both what? Pistols.

If you aren't firing a pistol, you cannot fire both.

You are given permission to fire both pistols, and then you choose to replace those shots with witchfire.

No rules are broken, because you are given permission to replace the shots with witchfire.

It seems to me that the rules ARE broken, because there is an assumption that you choose the weapon you're going to fire, then you gain all the associated permissions, then you suddenly decide to replace it with another weapon while retaining the initial permissions. Think of it this way:

"I'm firing two witchfire powers."
"You can't."
"Well, I can because I'm actually firing two pistols, but then replacing the two pistols with a witchfire power each."
"But you get to keep the permission to fire both guns despite not firing any guns at all?"

I can't think of a response that lies within the rules.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Polecat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It gives you permission to fire both.
Both what? Pistols.

If you aren't firing a pistol, you cannot fire both.

You are given permission to fire both pistols, and then you choose to replace those shots with witchfire.

No rules are broken, because you are given permission to replace the shots with witchfire.

It seems to me that the rules ARE broken, because there is an assumption that you choose the weapon you're going to fire, then you gain all the associated permissions, then you suddenly decide to replace it with another weapon while retaining the initial permissions. Think of it this way:

"I'm firing two witchfire powers."
"You can't."
"Well, I can because I'm actually firing two pistols, but then replacing the two pistols with a witchfire power each."
"But you get to keep the permission to fire both guns despite not firing any guns at all?"

I can't think of a response that lies within the rules.

If that wasnt how it worked, tben NOBODY could use psychic powers.
Please refer to page 12, the rules for shooting. Now please show me the step where you are required to pick a weapon and declare that you are using it.

Hint, hint.... There isnt one.

So that wierd occurence you desribed is ACTUALLY how all psychic powers must work in an order of effect sense.

I can the permission isn't for two weapons, it specifies pistols.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's akin to claiming the +1 attack for a pistol when armed with a specialist weapon.

Polecat wrote:

However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per
turn, he can use a different witchfire power in place of each

Can you shoot two pistols per turn?
Yes.

Are pistols weapons?
Yes.


You dont have to fire the pistols to be able to fire both of them. You only need the permission to fire them.

You are given permission to fire two weapons (pistols) per turn, so now you can "use a different witchfire power in place of each", as quoted.

You are given permission to fire two weapons of a very specific type (pistols). You're trying to change that very specific permission into a general permission. You can't do that. Its like saying that by being allowed to drive one direction on a one-way street allows you to drive both ways. That is not the case.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

"But you get to keep the permission to fire both guns despite not firing any guns at all?"

The permission is right here: "Any models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase".

It does not go away. You have the permission as long as you have two pistols. You dont need to fire the pistols to be able to fire both of them. You only need to have them to be able to fire them.

Then you have the permission to replace them with witchfire shots.

Polecat wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

"But you get to keep the permission to fire both guns despite not firing any guns at all?"

The permission is right here: "Any models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase".

It does not go away. You have the permission as long as you have two pistols. You dont need to fire the pistols to be able to fire both of them. You only need to have them to be able to fire them.

Then you have the permission to replace them with witchfire shots.

So you're agreeing that if I had two nonpistol weapons, you could fire both of those?

You're reading it wrong. The rule requires firing both pistols. If you don't fire both pistols but make 2 shooting attacks instead, you're not firing both pistols.

Except once again, you're ignoring the very specific requirements that Gunslinger only applies to pistols. The rule does go away if you're not firing two pistols just like the double strength goes away if a model equipped with a power fist decides to use a different weapon in close combat.