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 grendel083 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
It is a bit beardy.
Gunslinger allows a model to fire 2 Pistols (weapons)

The only thing the witchfire asks about is essentially (can the model fire 2 weapons?)

But if you're not using the two Pistol Weapons the model is armed with, you have no permission to use the Gunslinger rule.
WitchFire does ask that the model can fire two weapons. The model however cannot fire two weapons ( because you're not firing two pistols).

Regardless the permission is there.
That's all that was required.

Can a model with 2 pistols fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase?
Yes

So than Witchfire says sweet, you can do this now.
Which is Beardy, but hey.
I would never condone or allow it in a tournament setting, but for casual fun/fluffy stuff especially if he has this sweet model for it. ( Also he has to argue the rule/think it's right)

thisisnotpancho wrote:
If you look at it from the Gunslinger Rule, then the weapons can only be pistols.
However, if you look at it from the witchfire rule, then it is entirely possible to switch the two pistols for two witchfires, because the only requirements to fire two witchfires are met.
Both views of the ruling can be completely correct.

No, both rules can not be correct. You can't break one rule in favor of another without a specific exception, because you have not met the requirements to fire the two witchfires with the Gunslinger rule which only allows you to fire two pistols and not two unspecified types of weapons.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Both views of the ruling can be completely correct.

Not true. If you try to apply the witchfire to Gunslinger, you break the Gunslinger rules. Therefore that view cannot be "completely correct".

It does not matter if the weapons are specified, the witchfire only asks if you are able to shoot two weapons. If you are armed with two pistols, then you can...

This arguing has and will continue to go in circles...

thisisnotpancho wrote:
It does not matter if the weapons are specified, the witchfire only asks if you are able to shoot two weapons. If you are armed with two pistols, then you can...

This arguing has and will continue to go in circles...

But if you're not shooting 2 pistols you have no permission to use two weapons, and therefore cannot use 2 witchfires.

One viewpoint is supported by rules and doesn't break any of them. The other breaks a rule. Which one is correct?

rigeld2 wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
It does not matter if the weapons are specified, the witchfire only asks if you are able to shoot two weapons. If you are armed with two pistols, then you can...

This arguing has and will continue to go in circles...

But if you're not shooting 2 pistols you have no permission to use two weapons, and therefore cannot use 2 witchfires.

One viewpoint is supported by rules and doesn't break any of them. The other breaks a rule. Which one is correct?

The witchfire breaks no rules. If you shoot with a witchfire instead of a pistol, it does not take away your ability to fire two weapons, which is the only requirement.

It could be argued either way that this does or does not break the gunslinger rule. IMO, the gunslinger rule is not broken, because it does not forbid the witchfire rule, which is using them in place of the pistols, which the witchfire rule specifically allows.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
The witchfire breaks no rules. If you shoot with a witchfire instead of a pistol, it does not take away your ability to fire two weapons, which is the only requirement.

It could be argued either way that this does or does not break the gunslinger rule. IMO, the gunslinger rule is not broken, because it does not forbid the witchfire rule, which is using them in place of the pistols, which the witchfire rule specifically allows.

I think this part is where most people who disagree with this reading, disagree.

Given the nature of the ruleset, the Gunslinger rule must expressly allow the witchfire rule to be an exception, not simply 'not forbid it'. As the rule stands, Gunslinger applies to pistols and pistols only. That means replacing your firing pistols with witchfire attacks is violating the language of the Gunslinger rule at the moment you attempt to use the second witchfire attack.

Sometimes it's good to "agree to disagree" as they say, but in this case rigeld is correct. The most prudent course of action is to follow the reading in which no rules are broken.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
The witchfire breaks no rules. If you shoot with a witchfire instead of a pistol, it does not take away your ability to fire two weapons, which is the only requirement.

It could be argued either way that this does or does not break the gunslinger rule. IMO, the gunslinger rule is not broken, because it does not forbid the witchfire rule, which is using them in place of the pistols, which the witchfire rule specifically allows.

I think this part is where most people who disagree with this reading, disagree.

Given the nature of the ruleset, the Gunslinger rule must expressly allow the witchfire rule to be an exception, not simply 'not forbid it'. As the rule stands, Gunslinger applies to pistols and pistols only. That means replacing your firing pistols with witchfire attacks is violating the language of the Gunslinger rule at the moment you attempt to use the second witchfire attack.

Sometimes it's good to "agree to disagree" as they say, but in this case rigeld is correct. The most prudent course of action is to follow the reading in which no rules are broken.

DoW

This. You cannot say "the rules do not forbid it" because you've broken the core mechanic of a permissive ruleset at that point. The rules tell you what you can do, and Gunslinger says that if you have two pistols, you may fire both. That is the only permission you have.

I believe it is a case of general forbidding versus specific allowance. The Gunslinger generally forbids the witchfire rule, while the witchfire rule specifically allows it.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I believe it is a case of general forbidding versus specific allowance. The Gunslinger generally forbids the witchfire rule, while the witchfire rule specifically allows it.

You have that backwards, as the witchfire rules don't have a specific allowance to use them with a pistol but with weapons in general while the Gunslinger rule is specific in that it is limited to pistols and not all weapons in general.

 DogOfWar wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
This part doesn't make sense. If the model NEVER has the gunslinger rule, how can it use it, let alone lose it? Pistol Weapons grant this rule, but they do not have this rule.

Plasma weapons have the Gets Hot! rule. A model does not.

If a Space Marine fires a Plasma Gun, he is subject to the Gets Hot! rule. If he fires a Bolt Pistol, he is not, even though he is still carrying a weapon that has the rule.

Pistol weapons clearly have the Gunslinger rule and a model firing a pistol is subject to that rule. If they are not firing a pistol, they are not subject to the rule at all. Hence, no firing 2 witchfire attacks.

DoW

Your analogy is flawed.
Gets hot is a USR, and the weapon tells us it has this rule because it is in the weapons profile.

Gunslinger is neither a USR nor in any weapon profiles, so its a bit of a stretch to argue who has the gunslinher rule - the model or the gun. We don't have a clear answer here.

Neronoxx wrote:

 DogOfWar wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
This part doesn't make sense. If the model NEVER has the gunslinger rule, how can it use it, let alone lose it? Pistol Weapons grant this rule, but they do not have this rule.

Plasma weapons have the Gets Hot! rule. A model does not.

If a Space Marine fires a Plasma Gun, he is subject to the Gets Hot! rule. If he fires a Bolt Pistol, he is not, even though he is still carrying a weapon that has the rule.

Pistol weapons clearly have the Gunslinger rule and a model firing a pistol is subject to that rule. If they are not firing a pistol, they are not subject to the rule at all. Hence, no firing 2 witchfire attacks.

DoW

Your analogy is flawed.
Gets hot is a USR, and the weapon tells us it has this rule because it is in the weapons profile.

Gunslinger is neither a USR nor in any weapon profiles, so its a bit of a stretch to argue who has the gunslinher rule - the model or the gun. We don't have a clear answer here.

It is found in the wargear section next to pistols, if I am not mistaken...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

 DogOfWar wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
This part doesn't make sense. If the model NEVER has the gunslinger rule, how can it use it, let alone lose it? Pistol Weapons grant this rule, but they do not have this rule.

Plasma weapons have the Gets Hot! rule. A model does not.

If a Space Marine fires a Plasma Gun, he is subject to the Gets Hot! rule. If he fires a Bolt Pistol, he is not, even though he is still carrying a weapon that has the rule.

Pistol weapons clearly have the Gunslinger rule and a model firing a pistol is subject to that rule. If they are not firing a pistol, they are not subject to the rule at all. Hence, no firing 2 witchfire attacks.

DoW

Your analogy is flawed.
Gets hot is a USR, and the weapon tells us it has this rule because it is in the weapons profile.

Gunslinger is neither a USR nor in any weapon profiles, so its a bit of a stretch to argue who has the gunslinher rule - the model or the gun. We don't have a clear answer here.

It is found in the wargear section next to pistols, if I am not mistaken...

that is indeed where it is found. But it is never stated as being a USR. i am wondering just exactly what it is?

Neronoxx wrote:
that is indeed where it is found. But it is never stated as being a USR. i am wondering just exactly what it is?

It is a rule that allows wielders of two pistols to fire two pistols, located in what is clearly a subsection for 'Pistol Weapons'.

Kind of like how the sentence "A model with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapons maximum range away." in the Rapid Fire Weapons section only applies to firing Rapid Fire Weapons, and not that a model with a rapid fire weapon can fire their pistol twice up to half the range of the rapid fire weapon.

 snooggums wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
that is indeed where it is found. But it is never stated as being a USR. i am wondering just exactly what it is?

It is a rule that allows wielders of two pistols to fire two pistols, located in what is clearly a subsection for 'Pistol Weapons'.

Kind of like how the sentence "A model with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapons maximum range away." in the Rapid Fire Weapons section only applies to firing Rapid Fire Weapons, and not that a model with a rapid fire weapon can fire their pistol twice up to half the range of the rapid fire weapon.

Except for the fact that once again, Rapid Fire is a USR, and is included in the weapons profile. So why isn't Gunslinger?
Not that this makes much difference, but i do find it peculiar.

Rapid fire is not a USR. It's a weapon type.

So at the end of the day, two Witchfires are used by a model that can legally only use one.
A Special Rule unique to Pistol Weapons, Gunslinger, was used despite the fact that no Pistol Weapons were fired.
A rule that allows two Witchfires to be used was used despite the fact the model can no longer use the effects of Gunslinger.

So the Gunslinger rule has been broken, and the Witchfire rule has been broken (and dare I say the spirit of the game is broken too).

This can't be claimed as a RAW tactic, because as soon as you use it you break two rules.

And yes Witchfire does require that the model can shoot two weapons, but as soon as those weapons aren't pistols, the model cannot fire two weapons. Permission revoked.

I ask you to read the next thing because sincerly belive that gunslinger work same way.

EXARCH WARGEAR (shining spears)
Star Lance: The star lance is extremely powerful laser lance, bla bla. It follows the rules for the laser lance, but has a Strenght of 8 in all cases.

All cases.

Now rule for power spear (wich laser lance is)
Power lances have two profiles for both Strenght and AP. First is used only on the turn the model charges; the second is used at all other times.
And it states +1/User as strenght.

Now i believe, and playing like that, that shining spear exarch have 9str (8+1) on charge. But as this is the "case" seems like he have to be 8 in ALL CASES. Because English rules says ALL then it means ALL. Only because it written stupidly. Is it really not common sense to add +1?

DarkPhoenix wrote:
I ask you to read the next thing because sincerly belive that gunslinger work same way.

EXARCH WARGEAR (shining spears)
Star Lance: The star lance is extremely powerful laser lance, bla bla. It follows the rules for the laser lance, but has a Strenght of 8 in all cases.

All cases.

Now rule for power spear (wich laser lance is)
Power lances have two profiles for both Strenght and AP. First is used only on the turn the model charges; the second is used at all other times.
And it states +1/User as strenght.

Now i believe, and playing like that, that shining spear exarch have 9str (8+1) on charge. But as this is the "case" seems like he have to be 8 in ALL CASES. Because English rules says ALL then it means ALL. Only because it written stupidly. Is it really not common sense to add +1?

This is wrong.

It will be Strength 8.
It is not a Power Weapon so is not subject to the rules for a Power Lance, it's a Special weapon with its own rules, so specific to the power weapon rules on the same page it doesn't get +1 Strength on the charge.

Honestly, you're grasping at straws and TFGing away - this is trying to bend the rules to your advantage in the most asinine way possible, ignoring other parts entirely at a whim.

 grendel083 wrote:
So at the end of the day, two Witchfires are used by a model that can legally only use one.
A Special Rule unique to Pistol Weapons, Gunslinger, was used despite the fact that no Pistol Weapons were fired.
A rule that allows two Witchfires to be used was used despite the fact the model can no longer use the effects of Gunslinger.

So the Gunslinger rule has been broken, and the Witchfire rule has been broken (and dare I say the spirit of the game is broken too).

This can't be claimed as a RAW tactic, because as soon as you use it you break two rules.

And yes Witchfire does require that the model can shoot two weapons, but as soon as those weapons aren't pistols, the model cannot fire two weapons. Permission revoked.

Grendel has nailed it here, I am amazed people are still arguing this, this is to be honest a pretty beardy tactic and I would not allow it in a tournament setting, I wouldn't even let this slide in a friendly setting, In fact I wouldn't let it slide in any setting.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I believe it is a case of general forbidding versus specific allowance. The Gunslinger generally forbids the witchfire rule, while the witchfire rule specifically allows it.

Show me the rule that allows a witchfire to be used in place of the second pistol shot when using Gunslinger.
Specific means just that - it has to be specific in what it allows. Neither rule is more specific, so neither overrides the other.

rigeld2 wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I believe it is a case of general forbidding versus specific allowance. The Gunslinger generally forbids the witchfire rule, while the witchfire rule specifically allows it.

Show me the rule that allows a witchfire to be used in place of the second pistol shot when using Gunslinger.
Specific means just that - it has to be specific in what it allows. Neither rule is more specific, so neither overrides the other.

The only requirement is met for firing two witchfires.

That requirement is that the model has the ability to fire two weapons.
Can he trade them in place for pistols? yes, as that is exactly what the rule states.
Does this revoke his ability to fire two weapons? No, as the requirement for the ability to fire two weapons is met when the model is equipped with two pistols.
Understand that the gunslinger rule does not specifically revoke the models ability to fire two witchfire powers in place of each pistol, as even if the first shot is a witchfire, it still does not revoke his ability to fire two weapons.


Which is the only requirement to fire two witchfires.

Question: Is the Witchfire a Pistol?

Answer: it is irrelevant. The permission to fire two pistols (weapons) is the only requirement. And that is met the second you arm your model with two.
The Witchfire rule specifically states that if you have the ability, then you can fire a witchfire in place of those weapons. Nothing unclear about it.

Once you shoot the first witchfire, the ability to shoot two weapons does not go away. Which is the only requirement to fire the second witchfire.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Answer: it is irrelevant. The permission to fire two pistols (weapons) is the only requirement. And that is met the second you arm your model with two.
The Witchfire rule specifically states that if you have the ability, then you can fire a witchfire in place of those weapons. Nothing unclear about it.

Once you shoot the first witchfire, the ability to shoot two weapons does not go away. Which is the only requirement to fire the second witchfire.

actually, yes, it does. Gunslinger revokes its permission to fire two guns as soon as you fire something that isn't a pistol.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Answer: it is irrelevant. The permission to fire two pistols (weapons) is the only requirement. And that is met the second you arm your model with two.
The Witchfire rule specifically states that if you have the ability, then you can fire a witchfire in place of those weapons. Nothing unclear about it.

Once you shoot the first witchfire, the ability to shoot two weapons does not go away. Which is the only requirement to fire the second witchfire.

actually, yes, it does. Gunslinger revokes its permission to fire two guns as soon as you fire something that isn't a pistol.

Exactly.
This point has been made again and again.
Trying to fire two Witchfires, using Gunslinger without using pistols, breaking two rules in the process.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Answer: it is irrelevant. The permission to fire two pistols (weapons) is the only requirement. And that is met the second you arm your model with two.
The Witchfire rule specifically states that if you have the ability, then you can fire a witchfire in place of those weapons. Nothing unclear about it.

Once you shoot the first witchfire, the ability to shoot two weapons does not go away. Which is the only requirement to fire the second witchfire.

actually, yes, it does. Gunslinger revokes its permission to fire two guns as soon as you fire something that isn't a pistol.

Actually no, no it does not. The Exact quote for gunslinger states that if the model is armed with pistols, he may fire both.

It does not say, if a model is attempting to fire two pistols in the shooting phase, he can.

The permission to fire two pistols (weapons) does not go away because the initial condition of only arming him with two is still met.

Lets look at the process of shooting in the shooting phase.

First, you look at your option to shoot.
-This includes all your wargear and any special rules.

Second, you make a choice what weapons and special rules available you want to use

Third, you execute the chosen shooting.


Now, lets look at gunslinger and witchfire for a psycher.


First, you look at options:
You have two pistols and two warp charges. You, at this point, may choose to fire two pistols. Then, you have permission to replace two weapon shots for two witchfire.

Second, you make a choice what to use.
You make a choice to replace two weapon (pistol is a weapon) shots for two witchfire. This is your choice and final answer.

Third, you execute the chosen shooting.
You fire your chosen two witchfires.


You see, in that process there is no way that the gunslinger rule disappears, because the choosing what to fire is already done and it can not be changed anymore.

So you've used a rule unique to Pistol Weapons without using a Pistol weapon? And this isn't breaking that rule? It definitely is.
You've fired two Witchfires without the ability to fire two weapons (as Gunslinger has been violated). Another rule broken.
In addition you should have broken your rulebook. As your opponent would have rightly hit you with it.