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thisisnotpancho wrote:
agree with this, but you are firing a witchfire in place of a pistol. Not instead. You could not fire a pistol and another ranged weapon that isn't a pistol because it does not specifically state that you can fire it in place of a another ranged weapon that you could fire two of

"Instead" means "in place of". Same meaning.
And as soon as you're not firing a pistol, you break the gunslinger rule. You're no longer using one of the pistols the model is armed with. Gunslinger ceases to apply, so can't be used to fire a second Witchfire.

But gunslinger states "both" not "both pistols". It can be assumed as "both whatever you fire, in this case pistols", as it never says "fire both PISTOLS" in words, those not give hard restriction.
omg this sounds stupid, but point is that it says "both" wich not really restricts replacing pistols.

thisisnotpancho wrote:

You do not need the wording for the gunslinger rule to allow you to shoot witchfire in place of it. The witchfire rule does that for you. In fact the gunslinger does not stop you from shooting a weapon that specifically takes the place of the pistol, which you assume it does. You do not lose the ability to fire two pistols (being weapons) if you shoot a witchfire in place of one or two of them.

No, you do need the Gunslinger rule. Without the Gunslinger rule you don't have permission to fire two weapons of any type.

DarkPhoenix wrote:
But gunslinger states "both" not "both pistols". It can be assumed as "both whatever you fire, in this case pistols", as it never says "fire both PISTOLS" in words, those not give hard restriction.
omg this sounds stupid, but point is that it says "both" wich not really restricts replacing pistols.

Both what?
Two pistols, fire both.
It's talking about both pistols.
The rule very clearly talks about both pistols and nothing else. There is simply of way of reading that rule and thinking it means anything other than both pistols, it's how the language works.

Then the gunslinger rule on page 52.
"All models with two pistols can fire both in the shooting phase. They follow the normal rules for shooting."

The key word is both in the Gunslinger rule. Both refers to the two pistols only. That's junior high school English class, no debating that.

This thread has made me want to make a Lord with with 2 plasma pistols now! And a disc of Tzeentch, and Scrolls of Magnus. That would just be fun.

 grendel083 wrote:

Both what?
Two pistols, fire both.
It's talking about both pistols.
The rule very clearly talks about both pistols and nothing else. There is simply of way of reading that rule and thinking it means anything other than both pistols, it's how the language works.

But it dont says pistols, why then pistols would be mandaroty condition for rule to work? It says "both (entities)" and i am using "both my witchfire". They were pistols but was replaced by other rule. Gunslinger second part states nothing about pistols and i meet condition of first part by having 2 pistols.
We assuming that they are pistols and assumption cant negate the rule.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
Then the gunslinger rule on page 52.
"All models with two pistols can fire both in the shooting phase. They follow the normal rules for shooting."

The key word is both in the Gunslinger rule. Both refers to the two pistols only. That's junior high school English class, no debating that.

This thread has made me want to make a Lord with with 2 plasma pistols now! And a disc of Tzeentch, and Scrolls of Magnus. That would just be fun.

Yet it only refers to pistols, it does not says that if i replace them with witchfire it will not refer to witchfire.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Both what?
Two pistols, fire both.
It's talking about both pistols.
The rule very clearly talks about both pistols and nothing else. There is simply of way of reading that rule and thinking it means anything other than both pistols, it's how the language works.

But it dont says pistols, why then pistols would be mandaroty condition for rule to work? It says "both (entities)" and i am using "both my witchfire". They were pistols but was replaced by other rule. Gunslinger second part states nothing about pistols and i meet condition of first part by having 2 pistols.
We assuming that they are pistols and assumption cant negate the rule.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
Then the gunslinger rule on page 52.
"All models with two pistols can fire both in the shooting phase. They follow the normal rules for shooting."

The key word is both in the Gunslinger rule. Both refers to the two pistols only. That's junior high school English class, no debating that.

This thread has made me want to make a Lord with with 2 plasma pistols now! And a disc of Tzeentch, and Scrolls of Magnus. That would just be fun.

Yet it only refers to pistols, it does not says that if i replace them with witchfire it will not refer to witchfire.

I don't know how it works in the Ukrainian language, but in the English language, the only possible way that sentence reads, is both (pistols).

DarkPhoenix wrote:
But it dont says pistols, why then pistols would be mandaroty condition for rule to work? It says "both (entities)" and i am using "both my witchfire". They were pistols but was replaced by other rule. Gunslinger second part states nothing about pistols and i meet condition of first part by having 2 pistols.
We assuming that they are pistols and assumption cant negate the rule.

We're not making any assumptions, we're reading it the way the English language works. The subject of the sentence is pistols, then by the rules of the English language 'both' in this sentence can only refer to pistols and not Witchfire or anything else.

 Ovion wrote:


I don't know how it works in Ukrainian, but in English, the only possible way that sentence reads, is both (pistols).

Same here, but rule is absolute and words are only means to bring it. If it does not states "both pistols" written then we can only assume that it ment to allow or disallow replacing them pistols with witchfire. Word "both" refers to the pistols, but if it refers to the word "pistols" from first part it means "only pistols", yet if it refers to the THE pistols that model currenly have and that granted the rule then they are replaced by witchfires and reference just points to witchfire.

Ugh, i guess i am thinking too much, this anyway is negated by fact that rule applies to pistol so cant be used unless pistol itself is used.

And what leads you to believe that 'both' applies to something that's not even mentioned on that page, let alone that sentence? Nothing. There's more to support 'both' applying to pistols than it ever does for Witchfire or anything else.

1st sentence of witchfire rules.

"Witchfire powers are manifested during the psyker's shooting phase instead of firing a weapon."

You are firing the witchfire instead of firing a weapon. The first psychic power you use disallows you to fire the pistols and disallows gunslinger.

 Ghaz wrote:
And what leads you to believe that 'both' applies to something that's not even mentioned on that page, let alone that sentence? Nothing. There's more to support 'both' applying to pistols than it ever does for Witchfire or anything else.

The fact that it does not says "pistols", its more like reference to the pistols that model have (and that gave the rule) wich in general does not forbids you to replace them as they not HAVE to be pistols just have to be "both".

Backlash wrote:
1st sentence of witchfire rules.

"Witchfire powers are manifested during the psyker's shooting phase instead of firing a weapon."

You are firing the witchfire instead of firing a weapon. The first psychic power you use disallows you to fire the pistols and disallows gunslinger.

Gunslinger dont require you to fire anything, you just need to have 2 pistols.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And what leads you to believe that 'both' applies to something that's not even mentioned on that page, let alone that sentence? Nothing. There's more to support 'both' applying to pistols than it ever does for Witchfire or anything else.

The fact that it does not says "pistols", its more like reference to the pistols that model have (and that gave the rule) wich in general does not forbids you to replace them as they not HAVE to be pistols just have to be "both".

Read the Gunslinger rule and then answer the following question:

Both what?

DarkPhoenix wrote:
The fact that it does not says "pistols", its more like reference to the pistols that model have (and that gave the rule) wich in general does not forbids you to replace them as they not HAVE to be pistols just have to be "both".

Yet it doesn't say 'Witchfire' within ten pages but it must mean that and not the the word 'pistols' which is in the very same sentence. Nobody writes that way, yet you keep insisting this must be the case because its how you want it to be. Please present an argument that doesn't require breaking the English language and has been thoroughly refuted. 'Both' can only apply to pistols and your insistance does not change that fact.

 Ovion wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
You guys are pretty short on comprehension it seems.
Firing the pistols is not a requirement of the gunslinger rule. It in fact has no requirements other than a model being armed with two pistols. Armed with 2, can shoot both. Not armed with 2, can fire any two weapons it likes. Citation required.
Thats it. Thats the ONLY requirement.
So ackowledging that, does witchfire care what weapon we are swapping out? No. In this instance, yes, yes it does, because it's based on the weapon type. Citation required.
Does Gunslinger state that we HAVE to fire pistols? No. Actually, yes it does. So if i am armed with a bolter and two bolt pistols i have to fire the pistols?
Does gunslinger state we are allowed two shots with pistols? Yes. Keyword - pistols.
Are pistols weapons? Yes. A sub-type of Shooting weapons yes. Yes they are. This in no way affects which witchfire powers one may use.
Are weapons able to be replaced with a psychic shooting attack? Yes. Instead of firing a weapon, it's effective a weapon fired with its brain. Citation required.
Does gunslinger explicitly forbid this? No. Yes. Citation required.
Does witchfire explicitly forbid this? No. Witchfire weapons being Assault or Heavy expressly forbid this. Citation required.

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Pg.52 wrote:Gunslinger
All models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting Phase.
This follows the normal rules for shooting.

This specifies if it has 2 pistols, it can fire both pistols.

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Pg.69 wrote:Witchfire
Witchfire power are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Witchfire powers are often refered to as Psychic Shooting Attacks. Manifesting Witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon (unless otherwise noted).
~rules for rolling to hit/wound~
Even if a Psyker has a special rule allowing him to manifest more than on psychic power per turn, he can manifest only one witchfire power - regardless of its subtype (see below).
However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can use a different Witchfire power in place of each (assuming he has enough Warp Charge).

So if you can normally fire 2 weapons, you can fire 2 Witchfire Powers - such as a Monstrous Creature that can fire 2 guns, or a Dreadnought being able to fire all weapons.
However, as soon as you fire an Assault, Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapon, you are not firing 2 pistols, so cannot 'fire both pistols' and the Gunslinger rule will no longer apply in this situation.

can you cite the page where this is stated? Because the Witchfire rules make no such mention of this.
You make a great deal of assumptions in your statements, so please be so kind as to prove that these statements hold some degree of truth.

rigeld2 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And what leads you to believe that 'both' applies to something that's not even mentioned on that page, let alone that sentence? Nothing. There's more to support 'both' applying to pistols than it ever does for Witchfire or anything else.

The fact that it does not says "pistols", its more like reference to the pistols that model have (and that gave the rule) wich in general does not forbids you to replace them as they not HAVE to be pistols just have to be "both".

Read the Gunslinger rule and then answer the following question:

Both what?

Both your pistols. Does it means that i CANT shoot them if they are not PISTOL TYPE? No, because thats the word i added, it have no real power. It used only as reference to show WHAT i can fire, not WHAT TYPE IT HAVE TO BE.

Ghaz wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:
The fact that it does not says "pistols", its more like reference to the pistols that model have (and that gave the rule) wich in general does not forbids you to replace them as they not HAVE to be pistols just have to be "both".

Yet it doesn't say 'Witchfire' within ten pages but it must mean that and not the the word 'pistols' which is in the very same sentence. Nobody writes that way, yet you keep insisting this must be the case because its how you want it to be. Please present an argument that doesn't require breaking the English language and has been thoroughly refuted. 'Both' can only apply to pistols and your insistance does not change that fact.

Why would it mention witchfire if witchfire have its own rules. Armor save rule dont mention every weapon available but used against many of them. If something can take place of those pistols its fine as long as model still have the pistols on it.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And what leads you to believe that 'both' applies to something that's not even mentioned on that page, let alone that sentence? Nothing. There's more to support 'both' applying to pistols than it ever does for Witchfire or anything else.

The fact that it does not says "pistols", its more like reference to the pistols that model have (and that gave the rule) wich in general does not forbids you to replace them as they not HAVE to be pistols just have to be "both".

Read the Gunslinger rule and then answer the following question:

Both what?

Both your pistols. Does it means that i CANT shoot them if they are not PISTOL TYPE? No, because thats the word i added, it have no real power. It used only as reference to show WHAT i can fire, not WHAT TYPE IT HAVE TO BE.

So I could fire a pistol and a Plasma Gun?

Again, please provide an argument that does not require us to totally ignore the rules of the English language. So far you have not done so. Your whole argument is "... because I say so".

rigeld2 wrote:


So I could fire a pistol and a Plasma Gun?

If gun have rule that says "you can use this gun in place of ranged weapon in your shooting phase" then yes.

This is a case of basic english comprehension vs being TFG.

I don't care if I get censured for saying this but cop on guys, when the majority of people are against you and you have to make arguements of "it says 2 pistols, that means 2 of any type of weapon" you have lost because logic has said so.

If I buy two banannas I can give both of them to Ghaz. How did I manage to give him two other pieces of fruit?

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, please provide an argument that does not require us to totally ignore the rules of the English language. So far you have not done so. Your whole argument is "... because I say so".

Because its codex with rules of the game, not the rules of making English sentence. If i say "Joe look at the warehouse if there is 2 green boxes
bring them both here." but the other guys comes and says "If we have two boxes we can replace them with crates" then must i says that we cant because those boxes are not boxes but green boxes?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
This is a case of basic english comprehension vs being TFG.

I don't care if I get censured for saying this but cop on guys, when the majority of people are against you and you have to make arguements of "it says 2 pistols, that means 2 of any type of weapon" you have lost because logic has said so.

If I buy two banannas I can give both of them to Ghaz. How did I manage to give him two other pieces of fruit?

Wtichfire rule allows me.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:


So I could fire a pistol and a Plasma Gun?

If gun have rule that says "you can use this gun in place of ranged weapon in your shooting phase" then yes.

If you are armed with two ranged weapons you can choose which to fire, under your "logic" if I can fire two pistols I can substitute them. If you allow substitutions then I can fire the plasma gun and plsama pistol because I have a bolt pistol too.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So I could fire a pistol and a Plasma Gun?

If gun have rule that says "you can use this gun in place of ranged weapon in your shooting phase" then yes.

A) The Gunslinger rule proves that statement wrong by only giving you permission to fire both pistols.
B) All weapons have that rule, essentially. We know this because each model is permitted to make one ranged attack (barring MCs, Gunslinger, etc) and many models have multiple weapons. Without the option to use a gun in place of a ranged attack, having a ranged attack would be meaningless.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:


So I could fire a pistol and a Plasma Gun?

If gun have rule that says "you can use this gun in place of ranged weapon in your shooting phase" then yes.

If you are armed with two ranged weapons you can choose which to fire, under your "logic" if I can fire two pistols I can substitute them. If you allow substitutions then I can fire the plasma gun and plsama pistol because I have a bolt pistol too.

Witchfire rule states that i can use different psychic powers instead of any ranged weapon. I do so,

 liturgies of blood wrote:

when the majority of people are against you

Majority of people said that sun spins around the earth.
But thats not the case, i will still allow any chaos player i battle againts to have this combo if he wishes.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, please provide an argument that does not require us to totally ignore the rules of the English language. So far you have not done so. Your whole argument is "... because I say so".

Because its codex with rules of the game, not the rules of making English sentence. If i say "Joe look at the warehouse if there is 2 green boxes
bring them both here." but the other guys comes and says "If we have two boxes we can replace them with crates" then must i says that we cant because those boxes are not boxes but green boxes?

Your analogy is wrong.
"Joe, bring me the green boxes."
"I found some yellow boxes, will those work?"
"Nope, only the green ones do. Keep looking."

Wtichfire rule allows me.

Um, no - it doesn't.

rigeld2 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And what leads you to believe that 'both' applies to something that's not even mentioned on that page, let alone that sentence? Nothing. There's more to support 'both' applying to pistols than it ever does for Witchfire or anything else.

The fact that it does not says "pistols", its more like reference to the pistols that model have (and that gave the rule) wich in general does not forbids you to replace them as they not HAVE to be pistols just have to be "both".

Read the Gunslinger rule and then answer the following question:

Both what?

Both your pistols. Does it means that i CANT shoot them if they are not PISTOL TYPE? No, because thats the word i added, it have no real power. It used only as reference to show WHAT i can fire, not WHAT TYPE IT HAVE TO BE.

So I could fire a pistol and a Plasma Gun?

Or even two plasma guns, so long as you also have a laspistol and bolt pistol.

DarkPhoenix wrote:
Witchfire rule states that i can use different psychic powers instead of any ranged weapon. I do so,

And you're absolutely allowed to. But what you're not allowed to do is fire a second pistol BUT JUST KIDDING HERE COMES SOME WITCHFIRE.

Majority of people said that sun spins around the earth.
But thats not the case, i will still allow any chaos player i battle againts to have this combo if he wishes.

Bad comparison. There was scientific evidence proving the Earth revolved around the Sun. There's no English language or rule that allows your interpretation. Allowing house rules or HYWPI is fine, but its not RAW.

DarkPhoenix wrote:
Because its codex with rules of the game, not the rules of making English sentence.

The rules are written in English, following the rules for the English language. If the rules are not written following the rules of the English language all we have is a book full of nonsensical dribble. Its those rules that tell us what those groupings of words mean. Again, please provide an argunment that doesn't require us to throw the rules for the English language in the trash.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:


So I could fire a pistol and a Plasma Gun?

If gun have rule that says "you can use this gun in place of ranged weapon in your shooting phase" then yes.

If you are armed with two ranged weapons you can choose which to fire, under your "logic" if I can fire two pistols I can substitute them. If you allow substitutions then I can fire the plasma gun and plsama pistol because I have a bolt pistol too.

Witchfire rule states that i can use different psychic powers instead of any ranged weapon. I do so,

 liturgies of blood wrote:

when the majority of people are against you

Majority of people said that sun spins around the earth.
But thats not the case, i will still allow any chaos player i battle againts to have this combo if he wishes.

How you would play it is all well and good but there is no rules support. You have made a leap of logic, specific allowance is not the same as a general allowance.

Neronoxx wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
You guys are pretty short on comprehension it seems.
Firing the pistols is not a requirement of the gunslinger rule. It in fact has no requirements other than a model being armed with two pistols. Armed with 2, can shoot both. Not armed with 2, can fire any two weapons it likes. Citation required.See rules quoted below. If you aren't illiterate, or trolling, how can you possibly argue that the BOTH in Gunslingers rule, refers to BOTH Pistols
Thats it. Thats the ONLY requirement.
So ackowledging that, does witchfire care what weapon we are swapping out? No. In this instance, yes, yes it does, because it's based on the weapon type. Citation required.As below, it specifies it replaces a normal shooting attack. Being most Witchfire attacks are Assualt or Heavy, they do not fall under the purview of Gunslinger.
Does Gunslinger state that we HAVE to fire pistols? No. Actually, yes it does. So if i am armed with a bolter and two bolt pistols i have to fire the pistols? If you want to fire twice, yes. You can't shoot the Bolter AND the Pistol. You can either shoot A: The Bolter. B: The 2 Pistols.
Does gunslinger state we are allowed two shots with pistols? Yes. Keyword - pistols.
Are pistols weapons? Yes. A sub-type of Shooting weapons yes. Yes they are. This in no way affects which witchfire powers one may use.It doesn't affect what Witchfire powers can be used, but it doesn't allow you to fire 2 Witchfire powers using the Gunslinger rules.
Are weapons able to be replaced with a psychic shooting attack? Yes. Instead of firing a weapon, it's effective a weapon fired with its brain. Citation required.It's still a different type of weapon, and not a pistol.
Does gunslinger explicitly forbid this? No. Yes. Citation required.Regardless that it's a permissive ruleset, and that neither Witchfire or Gunslinger don't specifically state you can, Gunslinger specified PISTOLS.
Does witchfire explicitly forbid this? No. Witchfire weapons being Assault or Heavy expressly forbid this. Citation required.

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Pg.52 wrote:GunslingerAll models with two pistols can fire both (pistols) in the Shooting Phase.

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Pg.52 wrote:Gunslinger
All models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting Phase.
This follows the normal rules for shooting.

This specifies if it has 2 pistols, it can fire both pistols.

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Pg.69 wrote:Witchfire
Witchfire power are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Witchfire powers are often refered to as Psychic Shooting Attacks. Manifesting Witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon (unless otherwise noted).
~rules for rolling to hit/wound~
Even if a Psyker has a special rule allowing him to manifest more than on psychic power per turn, he can manifest only one witchfire power - regardless of its subtype (see below).
However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can use a different Witchfire power in place of each (assuming he has enough Warp Charge).

So if you can normally fire 2 weapons, you can fire 2 Witchfire Powers - such as a Monstrous Creature that can fire 2 guns, or a Dreadnought being able to fire all weapons.
However, as soon as you fire an Assault, Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapon, you are not firing 2 pistols, so cannot 'fire both pistols' and the Gunslinger rule will no longer apply in this situation.

can you cite the page where this is stated? Because the Witchfire rules make no such mention of this.
You make a great deal of assumptions in your statements, so please be so kind as to prove that these statements hold some degree of truth.

Page 52 specifies the gunslinger rules, Page 69 specifies the Witchfire rules.
The fact that Gunslinger specifies firing Pistols, and nothing else, and Witchfire follows Standard Shooting rules in all regards, look at it this way:
The Witchfire Attack is just another gun. It's generally an Assault Weapon (sometimes heavy).
You wouldn't try to fire a Lascannon and a Plasma Pistol, or say, 2 Blasters using the Gunslinger rule would you? So it's inane clutching at straws trying to get it to fire multiple assault / heavy Witchfire weapons with it.