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Recently I've been asking alot of DA flyer question, and I'm very thankful for those who have answered me. I have one (hopefully) last question. What makes the DA flyers bad? On paper they look good imo. One with twin-linked lascannon, heavy bolters, missiles and the other very anti infantry. But every when I look, there's people saying they are bad. So why are they inferior to the other flyers? Thanks for any help.

Poorly thought out? maybe the designers called that one in? maybe DA just aren't meant to have flyers? who knows?

But what makes them bad? Imo (and I'm pretty new) they look good.

One lascannon is a bit underwhelming when it comes to anti-air.

The "fighter" is crippled by having STR 6 weapons. The missiles are a joke, and for the main gun you have either a single TL LC (compared to three on the Vendetta) or another STR 6 gun. So it's theoretically an AA unit, but one that can't really do much to enemy flyers.

The "bomber" isn't as bad (the main gun and bomb can do some interesting things), but it's a flyer with no anti-flyer ability and that's a pretty big limit on how useful it can be. DA need AA, not more infantry killers.

So it isn't that bad, it's just out matched by everything else. Am I right?

Its bad in that its one of the very limited sources of skyfire in the DA dex, and its ability to USE that skyfire (which it paid a heavy premium to get) is very poor, while the premium also gave it flyer defenses, you could have some extra termies if you want survivable units, and those score, can assault, have flexible weaponry, etc.

Pretty much all of the above, the "AA" DA flyer is really underwhelming, specially when you're shelling out 180pts for it, for 35 more points I get the Contemptor Mortis with dual Kheres guns and CML, has both Skyfire and Interceptor when static and is a resilient BS5 shooting platform.

 Peregrine wrote:
The "fighter" is crippled by having STR 6 weapons. The missiles are a joke, and for the main gun you have either a single TL LC (compared to three on the Vendetta) or another STR 6 gun. So it's theoretically an AA unit, but one that can't really do much to enemy flyers.

The "bomber" isn't as bad (the main gun and bomb can do some interesting things), but it's a flyer with no anti-flyer ability and that's a pretty big limit on how useful it can be. DA need AA, not more infantry killers.

You're supposed to use the Nephilim to shoot enemy units up the tailpipe; if I'm remembering my binomial coefficients correctly it's actually got an expected value of around 2.3 hull points taken off said flyer, which is enough to drop some of the lighter flyers immediately; that goes up a bit to almost three hull points on average if you're hitting something on the ground in the behind with the strafing run boost.

By comparison: A Crimson Hunter Exarch gets an average of better than three hull points taken off an AV10 flyer, worsening to just under three hull points off an AV11 flyer (enough to drop a Night Scythe or a Darkshroud in one turn of shooting) with the Bright Lances (This is improved to better than four hull points on average against an AV10 flyer with the Starcannons and slightly better than three hull points on average against an AV11 flyer) at the same price. A Punisher Vulture, with its staggering rate of S5 fire, is going to average about 3.3 hull points taken off an AV10 flyer and 1.7 off an AV11 flyer, at thirty points cheaper than either. For the same price, a Thunderbolt gets almost identical air-to-air performance, plus the ability to get bombs/missiles to upgrade it a tad, an armored cockpit, three hull points, and auto-repair.

So no, the Nephilim isn't entirely useless at air-to-air combat, but just about everything else that's built for it and some things that aren't do it better or cheaper.

 phoenix darkus wrote:
Pretty much all of the above, the "AA" DA flyer is really underwhelming, specially when you're shelling out 180pts for it, for 35 more points I get the Contemptor Mortis with dual Kheres guns and CML, has both Skyfire and Interceptor when static and is a resilient BS5 shooting platform.

Only issue with this is not everyone accepts or has the money for FW stuff. I think they went for the whole glance it to death thing there. Its either glance it with the missiles which is joke or hope that lascannon pens, which again could also be ignored in the case of heldrakes at least. or again 6 more shots of str 6 to glance it to death. hitting on 3's you might get 5 shots through, and then hope for 6's (assuming you take the mega bolter and shoot two missiles) it's kind of a vain hope imo.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You're supposed to use the Nephilim to shoot enemy units up the tailpipe;

Which is why the Nephilim sucks. Any flyer can kill a target when it gets into rear AV 10, but the Nephilim can only kill a target in rear armor. Meanwhile Vendettas/Stormravens/etc can kill flyers from any direction.

Its not so bad in and of itself, but the number of fantastic and underpriced flyers out there makes it nigh useless.

2 reasons they're seen as bad as far as I can see...

1 - The flyers in 5th are comparatively underpriced (vendetta / stormraven)

2 - The fluff marks the nephilim as an anti air when it's really only good as anti infantry (EDIT - umprompted - only cost effective at anti infantry imo)


For me - the Nephilim is amazing vs infantry with strafing run and the mega bolter, I absolutely love it... and not many people seem to prepare for me to take a flyer as they think it's underwhelming (and therefore unexpected as they dont assume ill take one).

Oh, the dark talon is just bad imo

Stormravens are not underpriced. Compared to the Vendetta and Heldrake, they are overcosted significantly. At the end of the day, the Stormraven is 200+ pts for HP 3 AV 12. Too expensive to be efficient.

It's rather nice at killing infantry quickly 7 strength 6 shots and 3 strength 5 shots at ap4 at bs5 isn't bad will kill squads of xeno troops with ease. If the enemy doesn't have much in the way of aa it's fine really

I however do have a contemptor dread which has 12 s6 ap4 rending sky fire interceptor shots with av13 5++ for the same poinst but it is a bullet magnet and people tend to go straight for it which isn't hard to focus fire down where as the jet isn't such a magnet as people under rate it.

 Insane Smile wrote:
Recently I've been asking alot of DA flyer question, and I'm very thankful for those who have answered me. I have one (hopefully) last question. What makes the DA flyers bad? On paper they look good imo. One with twin-linked lascannon, heavy bolters, missiles and the other very anti infantry. But every when I look, there's people saying they are bad. So why are they inferior to the other flyers? Thanks for any help.

because all the flyers created in 6th edition are bad, bar the heldrake with bale flamer. All the other good flyers got their flyer rules for free.

Dark Angels flyers are meant to be bad, because, you know, they are Adeptus Astartes, Champions of Mankind, so they don't deserve good flying hardware. Moreover, Ravenwing are one of the best fast attack formations within Adeptus Astartes, so their flyers... just have to be sub-par.

But really... it's just a badly written book where majority of new stuff is badly overcosted and unreliable at best.

I've fielded Nephilim 7 times (i like it, it's beautiful model). It NEVER earned back its 180 points. NEVER. just once it was close, when it killed 3 tactical smurfs and a vindicator, but usually a chimera and few guardsen/kultists/firewarriors is all it kills.

On the other hand Dark Talon (I haven't used this) appears to be cute one trick wonder against infantry/MC in big big big games (where it can be paired with Caestus Ram/StormEagle loaded with some nasty Deathwing deathstar)

 Insane Smile wrote:
So it isn't that bad, it's just out matched by everything else. Am I right?

Like vespid in an army where guys with mediocre statlines are king because they shoot more useful lasers..

Here's another way to think about it. Instead of thinking about it in terms of what it can or cannot do in relation to other flyers, think about it in terms of how your opponent has prepared for it.

In a world where the Vendetta, Heldrake, and Nightscythe were all either non-existent, had crappier armor, or way higher in points cost, the need to counter them would be less. Thus, people might not feel forced to have great AA at the expense of other stuff, and would have the option take options like Flakk Missiles on existing units instead. In this world, the DA flyers are nice and good, with some things able to threaten them, but having a reasonable chance.

However, those flyers do exist. Thus, any army that wants to counter them has a crap-load of good AA, because those flyers show up in multiples -- Necron Air force of at least 3-4, Double Dragon or Triple Dragon, and 3 or so Vendettas. In order to counter that, the AA must be really good, as you need to take out 3-4 probably AV12 flyers in the course of a game, and typically in the turn they come in, as all of them have great firepower.

Therefore, whenever you bring a DA flyer or other flyer that doesn't have an amazing alpha strike, it's going to do totally nothing against an army that brings a worthwhile tournament AA component. DA and Tau flyers are pretty hurt by this. Crimson Hunters are okay, DE flyers are okay, Dakkajets are okay -- They're okay because even though they'll typically get only one turn of shooting, that turn can be devastating enough to make them worth it. A DA flyer needs to stick around to be worth it, and when people are bringing AA that can take on multiple heldrakes, they're going to completely obliterate one or two DA flyers.

When the 5th ed flyers are eventually nerfed, then the DA flyers might be better -- but probably not even then, as the heldrake will be here for quite a while. Anything that GW makes to counter the Heldrake will just counter Nephilim and Dark Talons even more.

 Thariinye wrote:
In this world, the DA flyers are nice and good, with some things able to threaten them, but having a reasonable chance.

It's not just the durability issue, the DA flyers just don't have enough firepower. A few STR 6 AP 4 shots isn't worth spending the points or FOC slots on.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Its not so bad in and of itself, but the number of fantastic and underpriced flyers out there makes it nigh useless.

Perhaps. Or it is terribly bad, and the number of fairly balanced and reasonable priced flyers out there make its flaws highly apparent.

What about taking a DA flyer with the mega bolter for anti infantry work?

Dakka banner in a land raider crusader, that's what you would run if you want amazing anti infantry.
The dark talon is a support flyer, if you take Azrael you can choose the reserves modifier and help make sure you get your flyer at the right time so that's not bad.
The jet fighter has missiles you can't shoot at other fliers so it's useless completely and pretty much has no place ever as the dark talon will out preform it in AI if you get within range of the Dakka banner plus it does other stuff to.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Thariinye wrote:
In this world, the DA flyers are nice and good, with some things able to threaten them, but having a reasonable chance.

It's not just the durability issue, the DA flyers just don't have enough firepower. A few STR 6 AP 4 shots isn't worth spending the points or FOC slots on.

Totally correct. The DA flyers, in their one turn on the board, don't have the firepower to make a significant impact. They are balanced for being on the board most of the game (with an opponent basically only having a few flakk missiles to attempt a counter), but as everyone is bringing stuff to kill better things, there's no chance for them to do anything with such terrible firepower in comparison to the good flyers.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Its not so bad in and of itself, but the number of fantastic and underpriced flyers out there makes it nigh useless.

Perhaps. Or it is terribly bad, and the number of fairly balanced and reasonable priced flyers out there make its flaws highly apparent.

A Vendetta is not reasonably priced and is an obviously superior option. A Helldrake is cheap enough to make it an auto-include for what it can do. If a Nephilim was, say, 120, it might be worth taking - its a glorified Land Speeder. But at its current cost, add it to the Vengeance as fantastic looking models that will never see the table because GW can't balance things correctly and refuses to make changes.

The dark talon has hurricane bolters, so you could use the dakka banner to multiply it's output.

From what I'm seeing here is that once most codexes get updated to sixth (vendetta going up in price or what not) it might be more appealing, my roomate has used it to fair effect in some of our games (coming from someone who uses 2 vendettas). The helldrake is not all that great a comparison imho as most people take it with the baleflamer that can't target the DA flyer in return. Just my 2 cents

I just think they are both massively overcosted for what they are capable of.

The nephilim is 180points for 1 LC and a few str6ap4 shots...
For 20 points more most other chapters can get a stormraven that completely outclasses it in every possible way.

The Darktalon has a few interesting tricks but in the end its weapons are quite short ranged which hurts it with flyer mobility and it's uses are very situational, it just doesnt have the flexibilty to be included in a TAC list and it costs alot for a one trick pony that may not work.

It's meant to be an interceptor style fighter, but has no good way to get behind other fighters (vector dancer, outflank). If the Niphlim gets behind a helldrake one s9, two s6, and three s5 actually does a fair amount of damage. That is what it's meant to do, but can't reliably do.

The Nephilim is ok. It's main strength is that it's not really worth shooting at because it's offense is generally considered weak. Odds are there's some terminators/bikes/drop podded marines right on top of you, so you don't really care about some dakka fire.

And therein lies it's strength, that dakka fire does add up over the game.