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All,

Long time fan of the great and expansive universe that is Warhammer 40k. Especially the fluff and pomp that is the Tactical Dreadnaught Armor.

Most of the forums I've read state that Terminators are not worth the points based primarily on two skeins of thought.

1. Termies Dont Dish da damages
2. Fall under concentrated fire just as easily as normal Tactical Squads (and far more expensive)

SOO!!! My thoughts were to open a thread and see what we can do to help out these loyal terminators. I know the suggestions are going to be rife with critique, ninjas, pirates and hats made from derrieres but please understand I believe they are an amazing bit of fluff and fun and would like them to be not overpowered but worth their points.

What are your suggestions!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

Here are my thoughts :::

On the offense
(authors note : I see Terminators and Bastions of Defense. A defensive line that holds under the most grueling punishment. I don't see them as a massive bring the pain unit. Again with the fluff!!)

1. Increase the Number of Heavy/Special Weapon slots (best equipped men in the Asartes....with stormbolters...) (not going lie....I'm an Assault Cannon crazy person)
2. Uh....No idea here

On the defense!!!
(authors note I see a huge problem with Terminator viability based on overwhelming low strength attacks : so here are my thoughts on what could be done to help)

1. Terminator Armor Increases Toughness (+1T or +2T)
only problem I see with this is the damn marks of Nurgle you delicious bloated heathens!
2. Increase Invul save to 4+
3. If they fail the armor save they get a special Terminator Feel No pain (cannot be combined with FnP) of 5+ or 6+ (NOTE armor save not invul save)
4. Make their 2+ armor only penetrable by AP1
a. They are supposed to be able to survive plasma furnaces and ninja monkey attacks.
5. Lower Base Points
6. Multiple Wounds

Please take my thoughts with a grain of salt. I am not saying every item I have stated should included in the retrofit but just a list of ideas that might bring Terminators back into a bit more play).

Once again I'm not looking for overpowered, Just something to give me a reason to use them instead of a 10 man Tac + Dev Squad or Sternguard or Dreadnaughts or Orange Creamcicles.

Thank you for your time,

I think making a special circumstance for them and make their save a 3+ on 2d6 and their invo a 5+ also on 2d6.
It would slow things down as you'd have to roll each one separately, but if combined with something like only S5 or above weapons can pen their armour then you'd be rolling a lot less saves for them.
That way they'll be near on indestructible and you can leave their mediocre damage output as it is because buffing both would make them way to OP

I'd say let them also take their invul save on top their armour save.

I think simple solutions are best.

Just lower their cost a bit.

Maybe something like 30pts for LC Terminators, 35 for standard terminators and 40 for TH/SS termies. Ideally, it's the sort of thing you'd use playtesting to fine-tune... yeah...

Anyway, it might also be nice to give their storm bolters a little buff - e.g. AP4 or an extra shot. Just something to give them a little bit more bite.

As to the other suggestions, I don't think we should change the way armour and/or invulnerable saves work. It's just messy, creates a lot of controversy and is very messy design.

 mekugi wrote:
I think making a special circumstance for them and make their save a 3+ on 2d6 and their invo a 5+ also on 2d6.
It would slow things down as you'd have to roll each one separately, but if combined with something like only S5 or above weapons can pen their armour then you'd be rolling a lot less saves for them.
That way they'll be near on indestructible and you can leave their mediocre damage output as it is because buffing both would make them way to OP

That is how it was done in 2nd. It was not bad then when a 2k game maybe had 30-40 models on the table.
Now it is much different. Imagine making 30-40 Save a Turn now a days.

Terminators my also be dropping in price. Wolf Guard Terminators are now 33ppm as are Grey Knight Terminators. The problem is until the Blood Angels come out we will not know for sure that is the trend.

They are not actually lower in price. It is just you can take different weapon options base. If you went all powerfist and stormbolters it actually comes out to 5 points more in the SW book and the same in the GK book if you sub in hammers for PF.

Many of these suggestions are OP as hell. I think being able to build them how you want like these new types plus a slight reduction in price would actually make them rather good. It does not sound like it is going to change though.

I think simply changing them to armor only able to pierce completely is AP1 would be a very good option. Increasing toughness by a single point wouldn't be bad either. T6 Nurgle Terminators would be incredible. Just bump up the cost of the Mark on that specific unit and problem solved. Make it 8-11pts per model to make the player REALLY pay for them. No other buffs, no other points change. It would make them contenders but force players to build a list around them, not just add them in willy-nilly as an afterthought.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
I think simply changing them to armor only able to pierce completely is AP1 would be a very good option. Increasing toughness by a single point wouldn't be bad either. T6 Nurgle Terminators would be incredible. Just bump up the cost of the Mark on that specific unit and problem solved. Make it 8-11pts per model to make the player REALLY pay for them. No other buffs, no other points change. It would make them contenders but force players to build a list around them, not just add them in willy-nilly as an afterthought.

Thus making anti-terminator weapons like plasma almost completely useless. There simply isn't a lot of AP1 in most armies, so Terminators would be very unbalanced, able to trash certain armies and be trashed by others.

Correct, keeping them in line with the fluff. But how is that any different now? There are some armies that have an abundance of AP2 guns, Marines and Dark/Eldar, and some that have next to none, or sometimes flat out none. Orks and Tyranids. So Terminators can still trash certain armies as they are now.

Forcing the easyier kill using the real anti-tank weapons makes sense. Other than that, sheer weight of fire as it is now and hope for some 1s. Plasma should be used as Marine killers or Nob killers, not Terminator killers. Terminators should be gods on the table for 200+ points considering the Land Raider is not much more expensive...

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Correct, keeping them in line with the fluff. But how is that any different now? There are some armies that have an abundance of AP2 guns, Marines and Dark/Eldar, and some that have next to none, or sometimes flat out none. Orks and Tyranids. So Terminators can still trash certain armies as they are now.

Forcing the easyier kill using the real anti-tank weapons makes sense. Other than that, sheer weight of fire as it is now and hope for some 1s. Plasma should be used as Marine killers or Nob killers, not Terminator killers. Terminators should be gods on the table for 200+ points considering the Land Raider is not much more expensive...

But those armies that don't have an abundance of AP2 tend to have an abundance of killy combat units that drown Terminators in attacks, so that is offset.

Making them only killable by AP1 would mean that, as a Space Marine player, I would have almost literally nothing to kill Terminators with other than boltguns.

I think the thing that kills terminators is weight of fire. AP2 weapons are great, but you can't always get them where you need them. It is also basically the way everyone kills hammer/shield terminators. Again being able to take any upgrade you want combining assault and standard termies into one unit would let you do that, while having a slight price reduction would let you not feel as big a lose for someone dying.

Increasing their Toughness or negating weapon saves would have a cascading effect on their survivability while not really doing what is intended. Plasma will still kill them easily and so will stray shots. Also now what about obliterators or centurions? Why take them now if they die so easily. Do they get a durability increase? Then all the terminator armor characters get a buff as well. It goes on an on.

The only survivability upgrade, I would be okay with is a feel no pain +6. It lets you survive stray lasgun hits that get through a little better as well as the occasional plasma hit. It doesn't negate plasma and does nothing verse high power weapons like melta. But that might require a point increase.

Let them perform sweeping advances. Not being able to do this significantly hurts their effectiveness in close combat.

Let them take 2 heavy weapons per 5 models. Storm Bolters don't scare anyone, they need some teeth for ranged combat.

Eliminate the distinction between tactical and assault terminators, and give them true flexibility in choosing wargear. Basically, something like how Deathwing and Chaos Terminators work now - able to customize their loadout to accomplish specific tasks, or to do things like make a shield wall of 3 hammernators protecting two dude with Cyclone Missile Launchers. The other SM elite choices have extreme flexibility when choosing wargear, there's no reason Terminators shouldn't.

Beyond that... they probably need a 4++ invul to counter the AP2 spam that is so prevalent in the game. Another option would be to give them FNP - that would significantly boost their survival against small arms and S7, while still leaving them very vulnerable to S8+ weapons (as they should be). What's sad about their current state is that they're not particularly strong against small arms fire, considering how much you pay for them.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

But those armies that don't have an abundance of AP2 tend to have an abundance of killy combat units that drown Terminators in attacks, so that is offset.

Making them only killable by AP1 would mean that, as a Space Marine player, I would have almost literally nothing to kill Terminators with other than boltguns.

Boltguns, Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, anything that's about volume of fire. Plasma is still a Marine killer, and I'm not saying to do the same to Obliterators or Centurians, but Terminators need a hard hitting update to bring them back to the days when plasma guns were few and far between. Making Melta be the new Plasma isn't a bad option in my book. I'm also a Marine player and I think the idea of a Land Raider AND Terminators being top priority threats against me (I don't field Terminators for fluff reasons) would make for a fun and difficult game. The whole point is that the ultimate of wargear plate armor should be ridiculously powerful. Make it worth the cost it is instead of lowering the cost and cheapening the concept of Terminator plate.

A point could be made for getting rid of the Invulnerable and adding in either a 4+ or 5+ FNP roll without a toughness boost. It doesn't follow the game fluff format of Feel no Pain, but it means that Plasma can be shrugged off after it ignores the armor, but an Instant Death weapon, so S8 or higher, is an outright kill. Because double strength means that there is no FNP roll, correct? I might be misremembering.

artemis8 wrote:
All,

Long time fan of the great and expansive universe that is Warhammer 40k. Especially the fluff and pomp that is the Tactical Dreadnaught Armor.

Most of the forums I've read state that Terminators are not worth the points based primarily on two skeins of thought.

1. Termies Dont Dish da damages
2. Fall under concentrated fire just as easily as normal Tactical Squads (and far more expensive)

SOO!!! My thoughts were to open a thread and see what we can do to help out these loyal terminators. I know the suggestions are going to be rife with critique, ninjas, pirates and hats made from derrieres but please understand I believe they are an amazing bit of fluff and fun and would like them to be not overpowered but worth their points.

What are your suggestions!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

Here are my thoughts :::

On the offense
(authors note : I see Terminators and Bastions of Defense. A defensive line that holds under the most grueling punishment. I don't see them as a massive bring the pain unit. Again with the fluff!!)

1. Increase the Number of Heavy/Special Weapon slots (best equipped men in the Asartes....with stormbolters...) (not going lie....I'm an Assault Cannon crazy person)
2. Uh....No idea here

On the defense!!!
(authors note I see a huge problem with Terminator viability based on overwhelming low strength attacks : so here are my thoughts on what could be done to help)

1. Terminator Armor Increases Toughness (+1T or +2T)
only problem I see with this is the damn marks of Nurgle you delicious bloated heathens!
2. Increase Invul save to 4+
3. If they fail the armor save they get a special Terminator Feel No pain (cannot be combined with FnP) of 5+ or 6+ (NOTE armor save not invul save)
4. Make their 2+ armor only penetrable by AP1
a. They are supposed to be able to survive plasma furnaces and ninja monkey attacks.
5. Lower Base Points
6. Multiple Wounds

Please take my thoughts with a grain of salt. I am not saying every item I have stated should included in the retrofit but just a list of ideas that might bring Terminators back into a bit more play).

Once again I'm not looking for overpowered, Just something to give me a reason to use them instead of a 10 man Tac + Dev Squad or Sternguard or Dreadnaughts or Orange Creamcicles.

Thank you for your time,

How did you come up with so many ideas? I think you made them up yourself and it is pretty impressive. In the last two or so months, dakka has seen this thread, and this thread, and some of the other big forums have seen this thread, and [url=http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293268-on-terminators-and-their-relevance/]this thread, and since you are starting your own thread, you must have your own original ideas and/or not seen those threads.

My next question is why are they all the same? I mean, they all seem like people want to be able to drive faster and you have a horse and buggy, and people in all of these threads, without variation, come up with the same things like putting more horses on the horse and buggy and inventing a better whip to whip the horses and make them go faster. Also you want to make a discman cd player that doesn't skip and has really small CDs.

You know what happened in those situations, is that somebody invented the model T Ford (who was that guy?) and somebody invented the iPod, so the horse and buggy and the minidisc player were made totally obsolete, and why the heck can't somebody do that with the imaginary set of numbers that are the Terminator rules? Why do people, different people than the last time, keep saying they want to tack on 1+ save, extra cyclone launchers, 6+ fnp, +1 toughness?

I think these ideas are really stupid. I don't think I'm talking about you at all, I think you are tossing out random ideas in complete good faith. I think it is a definition of a weak idea to just add more stuff in a linear fashion.

This is going to repeat stuff that I have said in some of those other threads, but I think it is an iPod to a discman and that is generally considered a success for the iPod.

All marines could use better shooting. All power armor, all of it, all artificer armor and terminator armor gets First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire that applies to bolters and is permanent. That means terminators are better at shooting.

All space marines, all of them, get 5+ fnp. That's powerful, it's overpowered. You get a save against plasma, you get immunity to small arms. Whatever. As a bonus to terminators, it means that having s8 powerfists is way better than having a regular power sword, because it ignores FNP. ALSO, since marines are fnp, people are going to start taking s8 guns, which are things like Battle Cannons and Krak Missiles that don't ignore terminator armor. Terminators win more than marines do from this stuff.

That is so powerful that everything needs to be recosted, and even if it does put marines up to 25 points per model, it will still be unbalanced and it's terrible. How are you going to pay for all these buffs? Well, you don't increase their points. You change power armor, regular power armor, to 4+. You get an FNP save against everything below s8, and you can massacre people with bolter fire, so what are you so worried about? It's much better this way. This also means, for terminators, that people forget about taking plasma guns, because they can take ap4 guns like autocannons, eldar plasma missiles, and heavy bolters. It's a good idea. It also means that you can change artificer armor from 2+ to 3+, which decreases the amount of 2+ armor in the world, and you can put the riptide down to 3+ while you're at it, and you can give chaos chosen 3+/6++ chaos armor to make them better than regular chaos troops.

None of these changes are specific to terminators, yet they both give terminators more things directly and they increase the value of both 2+ saves and s8 weapons. This is way better than just adding things at random to see if your carriage will go faster.

Then for changes that are more specifically about terminators, you change storm bolters to rapid-fire, twin-linked, and ap4. You also make terminator armor able to count storm bolters and combi-bolters as melee weapons, so that they have some incentive to use things other than power/chainfists and thunder hammers.

You've increased the terminators ability to survive massed ap- fire, to survive ap2 fire, to shoot things to death with storm bolters, to do things in close combat that other models can't, and to differentiate themselves from things like honor guard or centurions. And I am not even saying this is a really good idea, or like that I'm obsessed with it to the point that nothing else is better, I just want to hear something other than adding +1 to a part of the profile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, yeah. I'm giving Terminators a lot of extra stuff, up there, and unlike PA marines I'm not nerfing any of them in exchange. The important control for super-termies is partly to follow the background. You have to limit the squad size to five. Terminators in the background come in squads of five, and a full Terminator company has had 20 squads of five terminators in, AFAIK, every codex that has bothered to be specific about it. I think if you do know of background that has ten terminators per squad, that doesn't address the dozen sources that say they are always five man squads. It also makes more sense from a Space Hulk perspective, because ten would be way too cumbersome in tight tunnels.

nedTCM wrote:Increasing their Toughness or negating weapon saves would have a cascading effect on their survivability while not really doing what is intended. Plasma will still kill them easily and so will stray shots. Also now what about obliterators or centurions? Why take them now if they die so easily. Do they get a durability increase? Then all the terminator armor characters get a buff as well. It goes on an on.

I think that you have to open up room for other changes. You'd think everything would need an increase, but if marines are 4+ and 5+ fnp, then you can do things with cents like move them to 3+ or T4. You'll also see more high S guns to ignore FNP, so maybe more instant death.

The only survivability upgrade, I would be okay with is a feel no pain +6. It lets you survive stray lasgun hits that get through a little better as well as the occasional plasma hit. It doesn't negate plasma and does nothing verse high power weapons like melta. But that might require a point increase.

hm. So, Dark Eldar have very good access to FNP. There is also a strong sentiment from ork players that they would rather replace the 6+ armor save on boyz with a 6+ FNP on all orks. They get the same save for the most part, but it allows a saving throw against bolters, pulse weapons, et al. If you use FNP more commonly, you open up an additional design space that takes away the absolute value of low ap, but is also moderated by the remaining value of low ap.

DanielBeaver wrote:Let them perform sweeping advances. Not being able to do this significantly hurts their effectiveness in close combat.

It's supposed to, innit?

Eliminate the distinction between tactical and assault terminators, and give them true flexibility in choosing wargear. Basically, something like how Deathwing and Chaos Terminators work now - able to customize their loadout to accomplish specific tasks, or to do things like make a shield wall of 3 hammernators protecting two dude with Cyclone Missile Launchers. The other SM elite choices have extreme flexibility when choosing wargear, there's no reason Terminators shouldn't.

There is actually a very real reason that they do not. There is no background, practically, that supports separate squads of "assault terminators" and regular "terminators." However, while chaos terminators come in a single box, and wolf guard terminators come in a single box, waaay back when GW started selling boxes instead of just blisters, there were too many metal parts to put all the close combat bits and all the shooting bits together in one box. Ever since then, there have been separate squads in the codex, even though it is not mentioned very much by background. For official rules, that's how it goes.

I'd prefer them to be together in one squad, but c'est la vie. The two heavies per squad seems crazy to me. Maybe if one is a heavy flamer only and the other is a choice of cannon or missile.

All,

Wow awesome responses! I should give a bit of background on this.

First Question!!!! : How do Space Marines give Every Model FnP?

I am a huge Termie fan. I started with the Space Hulk Video game. The 486 version OH YEAH!!!! 3.5inch floppy disk for the WIN!

I love the fluff and I love the lore.

Therefore when I decided to get back into Warhammer 40k I decided to shelve my Eldar and Grab da Termies!

I've been reading the book and the codex and the forums like a crazy person. Trying to figure out how I can use Termies and as many Termies as I can!!!!

In my reading however I noticed that Terminators while they are able to shrug off a fair amount of fire, they still will die too easily compared to other units. And that is my question how can they be better but not op.

In my lists I'm actually taking Sternguards over terminators based on Suitability AND Destructive output. Point for Point Sternguard are just plain better. In a Drop-pod they are a surgical killer that WRECKS whatever they land next to, unless you are the awesome dice roller I am.

So why take Terminators? If a Sternguard or Tactical Marine squad has better suitability and damage output, what are Terminators for. Why is the only viable Terminator with a StormShield and Thunderhamma?

My thoughts are based on the idea that so many forums and so many thoughts seem to point at Termintors not being worth their points, and that is the issue I want to look into.

This should be your elite choice process

I want Sternguard
I want Terminators
I want Dreadnaughts
I want everything!!! give it to me nao!

You should never say in any choice that it's not worth the points (unless you're uber list tailoring)

All great thoughts and ideas. Keep em coming peoples!!!!

Thank you,

artemis8 wrote:

First Question!!!! : How to Space Marines give Every Model FnP?

Iron hands chapter tactics. 6+ free fnp for everyone.

I like adding in extra slots for heavy weapons - 2 out of every 5. Also a points reduction. As we saw with the new GK dex, they went down to 165 and i can only see that happening with new books from now on... maybe?

But I'd also like to see two game mechanics changes that would improve them:

1) change cover rules to reduce the number of incoming hits. So instead of gaining a cover save, cover means that the shooting unit fires at BS 3 or 2 depending on the type of cover.

2) grant units that deep strike the above cover save on the turn they arrive - afterall, if they suddenly appear out of nowhere, why would a unit be ready to fire at them? I'm going for the same principle as overwatch here - units would be shooting from the hip.

These two changes would help to reduce the amount of incoming fire and mass firepower is clearly the issue for them. The deep strike cover save would also help overcome their mobility issues as you'll be more inclined to deep strike them.

I think undoing the nerfing of vehicles that was 6th ed is probably the best thing for bringing terminators back from the brink.

Effective vehicles mean less plasma weapons that can kill two or more terminators at a time and more anti-tank which generally kills one terminator at a time. It also gives those big guns something else to focus on.

Better vehicles means that landraiders, stormravens and stormwolves, all of them terminator carriers, can deliver those terminators where they need to be with a higher degree of success.

7th has done some of this and I think that smart play can deal the rest.

First off, clutter the table with terrain. Even Tactical terminators are assault units, not shooting units. Lots of terrain keeps your enemy from being able to concentrate fire effectively and takes the edge off ranged AP 2. Both effects keep your terminators alive longer.

Second, don't put all your eggs in one basket. If you have a deathstar of terminators and special characters, you bet your ass every gun in the army is going to pour fire into it to get rid ofit as fast as they can . Instead you should use multiple units that pose imminent threat to your opponent. Either he has to choose which unit he kills or he has to divide his fire and risk leaving both units alive. This could be as simple as just having two terminator units instead of one big one, or something more exotic (is Thunderwolves for SpaceWolves, Dreadknights for GreyKnights, Bikers or Centurions for SM, Bikers for DA).

The point is, things are not as dark for Terms as they were an edition ago and there are options out there to help.

Now if I was actually rewriting Terminator rules I'd probably give them a similar treatment to Chaos Marines/Grey Knights/Space Wolves and start them with Power Weapons and a price discount. Lightning Claws/Power Fists/Thunderhammers would be upgrades only. I'd probably provide more ranged weapon options, probably picked by chapter, like Dark Angels with Plasma Cannons, Salamanders with Multi-Meltas, Iron Hands with Gravcannons, Imperial Fists with Heavy bolters.

- Reduce the cost to 35pts would be a good start.
- Let 2 models take Heavy Weapons per 5 in the squad
- Allow them to take Combi-Weapons or even Special Issue Ammunition, and can replace their Power Fist for a Power Weapon.
- Reintroduction of Terminator Command Squads

This thread I made a while ago has some good suggestions.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
I think simply changing them to armor only able to pierce completely is AP1 would be a very good option.

No. Just no.

That's exactly what invulnerable saves are for. We don't need some bull that lets terminators ignore the rules.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
I like adding in extra slots for heavy weapons - 2 out of every 5.

I think it would be nicer if their basic weapons were actually useful. The game is already unfortunately biased towards basic men being little more than ablative wounds for the special weapons guys.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:

1) change cover rules to reduce the number of incoming hits. So instead of gaining a cover save, cover means that the shooting unit fires at BS 3 or 2 depending on the type of cover.

Sure, if you're happy to rebalance every single unit around this mechanic.

Jefffar wrote:
I think undoing the nerfing of vehicles that was 6th ed is probably the best thing for bringing terminators back from the brink.

Effective vehicles mean less plasma weapons that can kill two or more terminators at a time and more anti-tank which generally kills one terminator at a time. It also gives those big guns something else to focus on.

Are you thinking of going back towards what vehicles were like in 5th? Where most squads took meltas over plasma.

Jefffar wrote:

Now if I was actually rewriting Terminator rules I'd probably give them a similar treatment to Chaos Marines/Grey Knights/Space Wolves and start them with Power Weapons and a price discount. Lightning Claws/Power Fists/Thunderhammers would be upgrades only. I'd probably provide more ranged weapon options, probably picked by chapter, like Dark Angels with Plasma Cannons, Salamanders with Multi-Meltas, Iron Hands with Gravcannons, Imperial Fists with Heavy bolters.

That could be interesting.

Vipod,

If vehicles are common enough and durable enough that Plasma is no longer adequate against them, I'd expect that Meltas would make a comeback as the weapon of choice for those that can take both. Certainly some armies can spam enough Melta in their army that there is only a moderate reduction in their firepower against TEQs and MCs, but aside from those, you'd see a lot of armies losing a considerable chunk of terminator killing power and having to prioritize that firepower between terminators and other threats. End result is fewer terminators dying.

Jefffar wrote:
If vehicles are common enough and durable that Plasma is no longer adequate against them, I'd expect that Meltas would make a comeback as the weapon of choice for those that can take both. Certainly some armies can spam enough Melta in their army that there is only a moderate reduction in their firepower against TEQs and MCs, but aside from those, you'd see a lot of armies losing a considerable chunk of terminator killing power and having to prioritize that firepower between terminators and other threats. End result is fewer terminators dying.

I don't disagree, I'm just curious as to what changes you'd like to see implemented, to make vehicles more durable.

I was wondering if you'd like to go back to 5th, because that was the edition that seemed to have the most vehicles.

I think 7th took us a lot of the way there. Especially now that you have vehicles with objective secured around.

The Serpant Shield and resultant spam of such made penetration an unreliable kill mechanic however, which makes Meltas slightly less desirable as a result. Until something breaks Serpant Spam or a penetrating Melta shot kills a vehicle 50% of the time, plasma will still rule because it does the job.

Jefffar wrote:

The Serpant Shield and resultant spam of such made penetration an unreliable kill mechanic however, which makes Meltas slightly less desirable as a result. Until something breaks Serpant Spam or a penetrating Melta shot kills a vehicle 50% of the time, plasma will still rule because it does the job.

To be fair, Wave Serpents are something most people would like to see removed from the game. I'm not sure they should set the standard on that front.

 vipoid wrote:
To be fair, Wave Serpents are something most people would like to see removed from the game. I'm not sure they should set the standard on that front.

But they are a part of the game at the moment, so they factor into the plans of players, especially competative ones.

Until better anti-vehicle than plasma is needed, plasma will dominate the game, reducing the effectiveness of Terminators considerably.

One could always work at breaking your local Meta apart to force an abandonment of Plasma. Land Raiders do this pretty nicely, so do the Necrons (Gotta penetrate AV-13 to knock them down to AV-11 and Plasma can't do that).

I sometimes wonder if people realize the door that was oppened when the Tau lost their ability to spam Strength 10 shots. I know I went from being easily able to blow up Land raiders on the first turn to having to wait for a deep strike fusion team or piranha squadron to get close on turn two or three. Suddenly that Land raider full of terminators stopped dying in its deployment zone and got a good two feet onto my side of the table before I could pop it if I was lucky.

I really think the Meta is heading for a correction that will swing in favour of vehicles, but because nobody is really trying it at the moment, nobody has figured it out. When it does happen though, a lot more players are going to have to make hard choices about the ratio of Plasma to Melta in their lists.

I always thought that Terminators should get an extra wound but upon reflection I think Terminator armour should act the same way as Irdium Armour for Tau and increase T by 1, not overly obsurd and gives people a reason to take a terminator captain instead of artificer armour

artemis8 wrote:1. Termies Dont Dish da damages
2. Fall under concentrated fire just as easily as normal Tactical Squads (and far more expensive)

What are your suggestions!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

1.) Stop pretending that terminators can single-handedly destroy everything, and instead understand that they're a support unit that works best when integrated with the rest of the stuff on the table.

2.) Stop pretending that terminators can shrug off your entire opponent's killing power by themselves (and as a result deepstriking them in front of everything unsupported).

Voila. Terminator problems solved, and we didn't even need to change a single rule.

 Ailaros wrote:

artemis8 wrote:1. Termies Dont Dish da damages
2. Fall under concentrated fire just as easily as normal Tactical Squads (and far more expensive)

What are your suggestions!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

1.) Stop pretending that terminators can single-handedly destroy everything, and instead understand that they're a support unit that works best when integrated with the rest of the stuff on the table.

2.) Stop pretending that terminators can shrug off your entire opponent's killing power by themselves (and as a result deepstriking them in front of everything unsupported).

Voila. Terminator problems solved, and we didn't even need to change a single rule.

Them still being overpriced for what they do is 'problem solved'?

As for an actual answer, make them Toughness 5 and call it a day

WrentheFaceless wrote:Them still being overpriced for what they do is 'problem solved'?

They're not overpriced. There isn't a problem in the first place that needs solving.

Agreed with Ailaros. Terminators, as they exist, are perfectly fine. They are expensive, not overpriced. There's considerable difference between those two things.

If you wanted to say what they're good at is too narrow of focus to regularly justify that expense (which still doesn't mean overpriced), I'd also agree with that.

That being said, my nostalgia vision of 40k points at 2nd edition (I've been playing 40k since the day Rogue Trader came out). I'm actually in favor of returning Terminators to those halcyon days when they were goddam nightmares even though I only play AGAINST them. It's just one of those things I wish were still in the game, despite it only making my games harder to win.

To wit, a modern Terminator would be as tough as a 2nd edition Terminator if it had Feel No Pain (4+). They were really tough back then. This would require a points increase, which I can provide the exact math on depending on how you rate durability, because, as I stated, modern Terminators are already appropriately priced.