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the best way would be to up squad sizes and lower the prices. 15 to a squad sounds right by me and a drop to 30ppm

now we will start price jacking plasmas and ap2 ranged weapons and weapons platforms.

another idea would be to completely rewrite their statline, what terminators is/does and their standard weapons loadout and weapons options.

the unfortunate reality is that terminators are a relic of days gone by and the terminators as a whole havent evolved as a unit while the game has evolved and changed around them. and no matter how you tweak them some units, armies, codecies will be on the bottom and the unfortunate reality is someone will be on the bottom thats the nature of games (and life) theres someone on the bottom of the totem pole we cant all be the top

im thinking these changes must give them one focus and one purpose, dont joe average them. and same goes for gk terminators and csm terminators. and dont emerge from your fortress of solitude until things make sense and they can work. if you want them to be cc beast make them beast. if your making them ranged warriors make them ranged warriors. and if you try to do too much at once your just going to fall flat on your face again long before models hit the table

maybe do away with terminators as a whole and instead make the terminator a dedicated CC monster and replace chaos termites with a better mutilator chaos terminators easily convert to mutilators anyway and the idea of an army (gk) with cc beast troops choices would be incredible.

one idea would be to give them a twin linked grav gun as a base weapon replacing the storm bolter, and change the powerfist for a chainfist base. now their dedicated tank killers that can maul other heavy infantry as well. its a heck of a better idea than the way they are now and we can all agree their bloody awful and something extreme has to be done to make them worthwhile again, and every day something doesnt happen for them the problem simply becomes more dire. and lowering their prices isnt enough.

Honestly I don't think the survivability issue will be resolved until GW does something to seriously nerf high AP shooting...which I don't see happening anytime soon.

The only real places you can address the issues with Terminators are either through making them shootier, or reducing price. I'm not a huge fan of reducing the price since it encourages taking more of them, which doesn't feel right given how rare they're supposed to be.

I think the "assault cannon on every Terminator" idea goes to far though. IMO a option list like this would help:

1. One Terminator in the squad may upgrade to have a Cyclone Missile Launcher.
2. For every 5 Terminators, you may have 1 of the following: Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer.
3. At the beginning of the game, select a ammo type from the Sternguard special ammunition list. For the rest of the game the Terminators may use this ammo type, but the profile changes from Rapid Fire to Assault 2.

Giving them 2 heavy weapons at 5 man, and 3 at 10 gives them quite a bit more offensive punch. I'm fine with the idea that you'd have to buy two 5 man squads rather than combat squadding a 10 man squad to get a second Cyclone, especially since it'd mean having to take another sergeant with a power sword rather than getting another power fist/chainfist. The specialty ammo makes their storm bolters more lethal without playing around with the actual storm bolter rules. They don't get all the ammo options at any given time because I didn't want to take too much away from Sternguard.

If simply being on a motorcycle can increase the Toughness of a model by +1, I see no reason why 'Tactical Dreadnought Armor' shouldn't give the same benefit. For me, the main gripe is how easy mass fire from crap weapons can still cause mass casualties to 40ppm units. They're crap weapons for reasons, lasguns, shootas, anything S3 should have a hell of a time even causing enough wounds to really make Terminators worry a little. The easiest way to decrease the amount of wounds caused would be to increase the Terminators toughness. I believe even just a +1 to a T5 would help out tremendously. It'll make S3 weapons wound on 6's, and run-of-the-mill S4 infantry weapons wound on 5's, which would effectively reduce the number of wounds caused, but only by 16%, not gamebreaking by any means.

Either that or change the 5++ to a 5+ FNP for an extra 33% chance to save a 40ppm with 1 wound

steelreign wrote:
If simply being on a motorcycle can increase the Toughness of a model by +1, I see no reason why 'Tactical Dreadnought Armor' shouldn't give the same benefit.

I think that's the wrong way round, tbh.

Having motorbikes increase a model's toughness is really stupid and needs to stop. It was nonsensical enough when they were still subject to ID at their old toughness - but now a Chapter Master riding a bike can just casually shrug off battle cannon wounds.

 Ailaros wrote:

WrentheFaceless wrote:Them still being overpriced for what they do is 'problem solved'?

They're not overpriced. There isn't a problem in the first place that needs solving.

LOL terms aren't over priced...come on man. That's just funny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

steelreign wrote:
If simply being on a motorcycle can increase the Toughness of a model by +1, I see no reason why 'Tactical Dreadnought Armor' shouldn't give the same benefit.

I think that's the wrong way round, tbh.

Having motorbikes increase a model's toughness is really stupid and needs to stop. It was nonsensical enough when they were still subject to ID at their old toughness - but now a Chapter Master riding a bike can just casually shrug off battle cannon wounds.

It has been this way for like...ever...

Terminators are some of the most overcosted units in the game. They are paying for quintuple power fist HTH power, and this is rarely necessary.

steelreign wrote:
I believe even just a +1 to a T5 would help out tremendously. It'll make S3 weapons wound on 6's, and run-of-the-mill S4 infantry weapons wound on 5's, which would effectively reduce the number of wounds caused, but only by 16%, not gamebreaking by any means.

Either that or change the 5++ to a 5+ FNP for an extra 33% chance to save a 40ppm with 1 wound

Well, math side-bar, but t5 reduces the number of wounds from s4 by 33%. If you shoot a marine six times and wound three times, then shoot a t5 marine six times and wound twice, you have scored is 33% fewer wounds, which is much more significant. Percentage points are different than percentages.

Here's the thing, if I wound your marine with a multi-melta, or if I wound him with a lascannon or a bright lance, I need you to remove him from the game. Multi-wound characters need to see a little bit of hazard from those things.

I'm very in favor of FNP for all marines though, TDA, PA, and scout armored.

pelicaniforce wrote:

steelreign wrote:
I believe even just a +1 to a T5 would help out tremendously. It'll make S3 weapons wound on 6's, and run-of-the-mill S4 infantry weapons wound on 5's, which would effectively reduce the number of wounds caused, but only by 16%, not gamebreaking by any means.

Either that or change the 5++ to a 5+ FNP for an extra 33% chance to save a 40ppm with 1 wound

Well, math side-bar, but t5 reduces the number of wounds from s4 by 33%. If you shoot a marine six times and wound three times, then shoot a t5 marine six times and wound twice, you have scored is 33% fewer wounds, which is much more significant. Percentage points are different than percentages.

Here's the thing, if I wound your marine with a multi-melta, or if I wound him with a lascannon or a bright lance, I need you to remove him from the game. Multi-wound characters need to see a little bit of hazard from those things.

I'm very in favor of FNP for all marines though, TDA, PA, and scout armored.

I think along similar lines to you on all marines getting fnp 6+ like iron hands do now.
I think fixing termies is actually a little more complex then lowering their cost, giving better stat lines, changing weapon profiles, ect. In part because there is an issue with many of these things all over the SM codexes, but few units get hit with several of the issues all at once like termies do.
I think term armor should give +1 toughness and allow assault the turn they deepstrike in (you can take a formation to get run and shoot). I would get rid of the two different kinds of terminators and merge their weapon options.
I would start the unit at 3 models.
I would say with these rules termies would cost about 30-33 pts/model for the power weapon/stormbolter version.
I would make storm bolters salvo 2/3.
To change out a power weapon for a lightning claw would be free. to upgrade from either of those to a power fist would be 5 points. to upgrade to a chainfist or thunder hammer would be another 5 points on top of the powerfist.
to change out a storm bolter for a combi-bolter, storm shield, or lightning claw is 5 points
for every 5 models in the squad two models may replace a storm bolter for a melta gun for 5 points,or replace a storm bolter for a heavy flamer, grav gun, or plasma gun for 10 points, or replace a storm bolter for an assault cannon for 15 points, or take take a cyclone missile launcher for 20 points.
Sergeants would also be able to change their weapons based on this list.
A power fist/storm bolter termie would be 35-38 points under these rules, a twin lightning claws termie would be the same.
Thunder hammer and storm shield termies would be 40-43 points.
twin lightning claws would give shred.

I am leaning towards the 33 mark for terminators under these rules to the terminator armor. with terminator armor as is, id put them around 28-30 points for a power weapon storm bolter models.

Honestly I think allowing Termies the ability just to reroll their armor save would solve a large part of the problem. Maybe adding a +1 T on top of that would be overkill, maybe not.

Mostly they just need to be more reasonably priced. Grey Knight Terminators and Paladins are solid units, they're not spectacular and they're still a little overpriced, but if you dropped them a few points per model more and made the upgrades just a touch cheaper then they'd both be very good. Do the same for vanilla Terminators and they'd be much better. Though a big part of the issue with vanilla SM Terminators is they're so inflexible. If you could mix and match shooting with assault, that alone is a significant improvement. Otherwise, you're either stuck with a unit with mediocre ranged firepower that's too fragile due to the abundance of AP2, too expensive since they come with overpriced powerfists, or a melee unit that has trouble actually reaching melee. If Terminators were like 30pts base and you could mix and match THSSs with heavy weapons, they would probably see the table.

 DarkLink wrote:
Mostly they just need to be more reasonably priced. Grey Knight Terminators and Paladins are solid units, they're not spectacular and they're still a little overpriced, but if you dropped them a few points per model more and made the upgrades just a touch cheaper then they'd both be very good. Do the same for vanilla Terminators and they'd be much better. Though a big part of the issue with vanilla SM Terminators is they're so inflexible. If you could mix and match shooting with assault, that alone is a significant improvement. Otherwise, you're either stuck with a unit with mediocre ranged firepower that's too fragile due to the abundance of AP2, too expensive since they come with overpriced powerfists, or a melee unit that has trouble actually reaching melee. If Terminators were like 30pts base and you could mix and match THSSs with heavy weapons, they would probably see the table.

The main problem I see with this approach, is that reducing price isn't the greatest way to accurately present something from the fiction. If we go in purely a mechanical mind set (like reducing points) rather than from more of a lore consideration, than the game will have more potential to lose its appeal.

There are so many competing ideas on how to make the 'game' rather than how it should look like from lore. I mean look at space marines: only a million of them or so in the galaxy and most SM players suffer casualties as bad as the imperial guard. At that rate, I don't see chapters replenishing their loses with the usual 10+ year neophyte process. Heck, space marines are meant to be quite the bastion on the world they land on, turning the course of a war (containing possibly billions of combatants) in their favor. I just don't see that at all happening with the way the rules have been since rogue trader.

I understand the sales reasons for them never ever being represented the 'real' way (lower model count = less sales) but for those who really do care about playing the game for how it should be, then look to tailoring your own codex (there are probably ones already out there - related to the whole art scale space marine stuff) and then offer to play them with your friends. I think most people fun to play with would be okay with it.

Just from the mechanical perspective, the toughness increase, FnP and armour save rerolls are all excellent ideas (from others in this thread).

Strap hurricane bolters on their back like cml but make it free. Problem solved! Also allow them to shoot storm bolter at the same time.
Oh, and change their stat line
Or just call them Dakkinators!
WS1 BS4 S1 T4 W1 I1 A1 Ld9 Sv2+
War gear:

No close combat weapons
2 storm bolters so 1 in each hand.
1 Hurricane bolter on their back

Special rules:
all the usual combat squad and atsknf
A special rule to allow them to shoot all guns.

38 ppm

kveldulf wrote:

I understand the sales reasons for them never ever being represented the 'real' way (lower model count = less sales) but for those who really do care about playing the game for how it should be, then look to tailoring your own codex (there are probably ones already out there - related to the whole art scale space marine stuff) and then offer to play them with your friends. I think most people fun to play with would be okay with it.

Just from the mechanical perspective, the toughness increase, FnP and armour save rerolls are all excellent ideas (from others in this thread).

I don't think any of the truescalers' threads I've read have ever referenced using fandexes, and none of the "fluff marine" fandex threads I have read have ever been by truescalers. Huh.

From the perspective of using housErules with people, I think that FNP is the best and rerolls are the worse, because of the ability to outright and explicitly negate FNP, whereas there are not many ways to deny them rerolls.

You're right that I think "most people fun to play with" would be down with whatever is fun.

 ionusx wrote:
the best way would be to up squad sizes and lower the prices. 15 to a squad sounds right by me and a drop to 30ppm

If you're fielding fifteen Terminators in a squad, even at 30ppm, something has gone horribly wrong.