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 Ond Angel wrote:

Actually some people would.
I just wish I meant figuratively and/or metaphorically.

I recall a story about two mechanics attempting to extinguish a flare in a tank of petrol.

It turned out about as well as you'd expect...

 vipoid wrote:

 Ond Angel wrote:

Actually some people would.
I just wish I meant figuratively and/or metaphorically.

I recall a story about two mechanics attempting to extinguish a flare in a tank of petrol.

It turned out about as well as you'd expect...

The flare was in the petrol, or they tried to extinguish it by placing it in petrol...?

 Ond Angel wrote:

The flare was in the petrol, or they tried to extinguish it by placing it in petrol...?

They tried to extinguish it by putting it in the petrol.

If I remember correctly, they were trying to replicate something they'd seen on TV - where someone had extinguished a cigar in a glass of diesel.

Apparently they didn't realised that petrol is easier to ignite, that flares burn hotter than cigars, and that flares have their own oxygen source - so can still burn when submerged.

 vipoid wrote:

 Ond Angel wrote:

The flare was in the petrol, or they tried to extinguish it by placing it in petrol...?

They tried to extinguish it by putting it in the petrol.

If I remember correctly, they were trying to replicate something they'd seen on TV - where someone had extinguished a cigar in a glass of diesel.

Apparently they didn't realised that petrol is easier to ignite, that flares burn hotter than cigars, and that flares have their own oxygen source - so can still burn when submerged.

Edit:
To keep on topic, I feel a simple points cost brings most Terminators in line.
My Fandex uses 5 point cheaper TH/SS Terminators, and they seem to do their points worth now. (25+ pts goes a long way)

 vipoid wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
Small arms have always been pretty much ablative wounds, to imperial armies. That's sort of a problem with the rules, not the army lists.

And you don't extinguish a fire by pouring petrol on it.

I didn't say anything good about re-rolls, I think they're a terrible idea. If I say anything on this topic it's to increase the use of ap4, often useless against TDA, at the expense of both ap2 and massed fire.

I'd really prefer Guard to be useful as little five- or four- model combat squads, because lasgunners have become more than just ablative wounds, but instead here we are trying to establish that actually 2+ saves are not too weak.

I don't know if anyone else has said an idea to this but why not let them just get a re-roll on their armor/ but at 2 worse if they fail it?

2+ turns into a 2+/4+Re-roll/4++(3++ from ss)

It will reduce failed saves from high volume by roughly half while at the same time not really buffing ts/ss combo since their survivle rate would be the same as non ss/th from high volume.

Or apply the same idea but only on Str 4 or less weapons but that might get a little cumbersome.

This can also help with artifice armor that doesn't have any invul save like SG from blodo angels (but their codex is coming up soon so who knows)

 Anpu42 wrote:

 mekugi wrote:
I think making a special circumstance for them and make their save a 3+ on 2d6 and their invo a 5+ also on 2d6.
It would slow things down as you'd have to roll each one separately, but if combined with something like only S5 or above weapons can pen their armour then you'd be rolling a lot less saves for them.
That way they'll be near on indestructible and you can leave their mediocre damage output as it is because buffing both would make them way to OP

That is how it was done in 2nd. It was not bad then when a 2k game maybe had 30-40 models on the table.
Now it is much different. Imagine making 30-40 Save a Turn now a days.

Terminators my also be dropping in price. Wolf Guard Terminators are now 33ppm as are Grey Knight Terminators. The problem is until the Blood Angels come out we will not know for sure that is the trend.

Wolf Guard Termies have been 33 pts/model since their 5th edition codex, not sure about anything before that. The whole point of it is to have them cheaper for more versatility with Space Wolf Termies; it was just the matter of paying 18 points per wolf guard then 15 per for Termi armour.

Yes WG terminators start at 33 points but start with a power weapon. To upgrade them to a power fist makes them cost 43 points. TH/SS Wolf Guard are 58 points each. So are twin Wolf Claw, but on the other hand they are +1 Strength over normal terminators.

Flexibility and versatility come at a price.

 vipoid wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Honestly the combination of broadly-available AP2 Large Blasts are a bigger problem for Terminator durability than not being able to hold up to lasgun/bolter-fire. If I were to suggest a minor rules change that didn't require rebalancing everything else pumping the base Inv to 4+ and leaving them at the current cost wouldn't be a bad suggestion.

That could work.

Though, I wonder if our attention should actually be focussed elsewhere - like on rebalancing the units that actually produce these AP2 large blasts.

The problem is that the underlying issue here is how 40k handles armour saves (all-or-nothing instead of WHFB's more sensible penalty system), if we were to fix that a lot of issues that come out in edge-case situations like the narrow band of balance between too good and too expensive for Terminators and the waste of paper that is 6+ armour saves would up and vanish.

I love me 6+ saves in mellee, vs mob rule and explosions. 1/6 is definitely better than nothing.

Maybe it's a little late to the party, by which I mean "I hope this doesn't count as threadromancy", but what about making TDA -1 to the AP of weapons firing at them when taking saves?
AP1 still ignores TDA, anything AP3 or worse still won't matter, and AP2 is not-so-problematic.
Rending would still work, as that isn't a weapon.
For the sake of mixed units it won't matter, since only the model taking a save in TDA gets it, not his PA buds.

4+ Invul would be be a fair buff to them. Unfortunately it would unbalance any weapon loudouts that include a storm shield. I wouldn't exchange a storm bolter for an increase of 4++ to 3++. And making Storm Shields 2++ would be OP.

Allowing invul save in addition to regular save is an excellent idea.

How about the storm shield is a 3++ and finally counts as a CCW? It would have its own niche again.

 Quickjager wrote:
How about the storm shield is a 3++ and finally counts as a CCW? It would have its own niche again.

That would be great, but do you think it would make lightning claws unviable?

Mmm yes most likely, but lightning claws have always been dubious at best a slight point point drop would balance it out again.

Making storm shields count as a CCW is a great idea!

Sincerely, Thunderwolf Cavalry.

Thunderhammers are also specialist weapons, so TWC isn't so strong still unless they load up on Power Axes, in which case if they didn't die to your Initiative you were probably dead anyway.

Frost Swords become a nice option to compliment a counts as CCW storm shield for a Thunderwolf. Wound MEQs on a 2+ and ignore their armour without dropping initiative. Rending and volume of attacks will combine to deliver wounds through 2±

If the Terminators were that pointless, people wouldn't bring that much plasma and other AP2.

Because there's clearly no other units in the game with a 2+ save and average to above average toughness. None whatsoever. People only bring plasma to deal with termies.

Not to mention the lengthy discussion that could be had about opportunity costs of special weapons and why melta/plasma are as prevalent as they are.

I don't believe that terminators are underpowered.
Overcosted, yeah.
And the fact that they cannot make sweeping advances is the killer for me...
If they could they'd actually stand a chance (although this only really applies to Nurgle Termis: Imperials should have T5 too, they just die waaaaay to easily as is).

Terminators are only good for making obliterators.

Or meganobz. But termies are a bit small for both of them.

I think making Storm Shields a STR: User, AP -, Specialist Weapon for Terminators would be pretty cool. Only stuff in TDA would be able to use them in that way.

My proposed way to fix Tactical Terminators is to make Assault Cannons their base weapon, but keep their cost the same.

The problem with Terminators today is that they're worse point-for-point than Tactical Marines until you get them into melee, and 7e is pretty focused on the shooting part of the game. Terminators could stand having a way to drop the power fists and get a cost reduction, a way to get more heavy weapons in a squad of five, and/or a buff to storm bolters; they're mostly reasonable, but their damage output isn't sufficient to see them on the table today.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I think making Storm Shields a STR: User, AP -, Specialist Weapon for Terminators would be pretty cool. Only stuff in TDA would be able to use them in that way.

My proposed way to fix Tactical Terminators is to make Assault Cannons their base weapon, but keep their cost the same.

That would be silly. 100% Assault Cannons at 45ppm, now...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jefffar wrote:
Yes WG terminators start at 33 points but start with a power weapon. To upgrade them to a power fist makes them cost 43 points. TH/SS Wolf Guard are 58 points each. So are twin Wolf Claw, but on the other hand they are +1 Strength over normal terminators.

Flexibility and versatility come at a price.

I don't know about you but I would love 30-ish PPM Deathwing that came with power swords and left me with the option to upgrade some with fists/LC/THSS.

CSM are 33 and they don't have ATSKNF and CT. I think it's a reasonable price when you have all that goodies.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The problem with Terminators today is that they're worse point-for-point than Tactical Marines until you get them into melee, and 7e is pretty focused on the shooting part of the game. Terminators could stand having a way to drop the power fists and get a cost reduction, a way to get more heavy weapons in a squad of five, and/or a buff to storm bolters; they're mostly reasonable, but their damage output isn't sufficient to see them on the table today.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I think making Storm Shields a STR: User, AP -, Specialist Weapon for Terminators would be pretty cool. Only stuff in TDA would be able to use them in that way.

My proposed way to fix Tactical Terminators is to make Assault Cannons their base weapon, but keep their cost the same.

That would be silly. 100% Assault Cannons at 45ppm, now...

That would put them at 225 pts per squad. Too expensive.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The problem with Terminators today is that they're worse point-for-point than Tactical Marines until you get them into melee, and 7e is pretty focused on the shooting part of the game. Terminators could stand having a way to drop the power fists and get a cost reduction, a way to get more heavy weapons in a squad of five, and/or a buff to storm bolters; they're mostly reasonable, but their damage output isn't sufficient to see them on the table today.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I think making Storm Shields a STR: User, AP -, Specialist Weapon for Terminators would be pretty cool. Only stuff in TDA would be able to use them in that way.

My proposed way to fix Tactical Terminators is to make Assault Cannons their base weapon, but keep their cost the same.

That would be silly. 100% Assault Cannons at 45ppm, now...

That would put them at 225 pts per squad. Too expensive.

Wait, a unit of 5 Terminators with 5 Assault Cannons at 225 points would be too expensive how, exactly?

225 for five assault cannons is about on par with units in the Eldar codex. That would mean they might be too cheap.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The problem with Terminators today is that they're worse point-for-point than Tactical Marines until you get them into melee, and 7e is pretty focused on the shooting part of the game. Terminators could stand having a way to drop the power fists and get a cost reduction, a way to get more heavy weapons in a squad of five, and/or a buff to storm bolters; they're mostly reasonable, but their damage output isn't sufficient to see them on the table today.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I think making Storm Shields a STR: User, AP -, Specialist Weapon for Terminators would be pretty cool. Only stuff in TDA would be able to use them in that way.

My proposed way to fix Tactical Terminators is to make Assault Cannons their base weapon, but keep their cost the same.

That would be silly. 100% Assault Cannons at 45ppm, now...

That would put them at 225 pts per squad. Too expensive.

Wait, a unit of 5 Terminators with 5 Assault Cannons at 225 points would be too expensive how, exactly?

I am absolutely serious. Take a similarly equipped and costed unit and compare. A five man unit of sanguinary guard with four power fists, angelus Bolters, and one sword encarmine comes in at 205 points, 5 points more than the basic 200 point Terminator squad.

The Terminator squad has 5 24" Str4 AP5, Assault 2 Storm Bolters, the Sanguinary Guard has 5 12" Str4 AP4, Assault 2 Angelus Bolters. So while the Terminators have more range, Sanguinary Guard have more penetration. The Power Fists are a draw since same Str. The Sword Encarmine vs the Power Sword goes to the SE since master crafted. The Sanguinary Guard also have more choices for weapons.

Their stats are basically the same except the Terminators have a 5++. So advantage Terminators. But the Sanguinary Guard have jump packs so they are much more mobile.

So for the low low price of -5 points, a little range and a 5++, the Terminators give up some AP on their Bolters, a Master crafted Power Sword, and a ton of mobility.

I don't think giving them more penetrating power and rending would be too much of a trade for reduced mobility and no MC on the sergeant.