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If they get a price increase then it might be ok, but really I'd rather not see Terminators get FNP or a toughness boost.

As in, it shouldn't be that hard to kill them with massed-fire. We already have plenty of units that are immune or virtually immune to basic weapon - to the point where most units are effectively a couple of guys with special weapons, and a lot of ablative wounds.

If we're going to start making elite infantry virtually immune to small arms fire as well, then could we introduce some kind of concentrate-fire rule that allows massed small-arms-fire to do something to vehicles and MCs?

Perhaps we reduce the model count needed to field a squad and buff those remaining models to be even MORE durable?

Basically make them Paladins that Grey Knights have? 2 wound 40 ppm 3 models minimum for a squad, every 5 gets 2 special weapons?

What would you do with the Paladins then? Make them 3 wounds?

Terminators are at the point where any buff to their T or W stats would require a points increase. I get why people say they are overpriced right now, but its not by much, maybe 5 points or so. A T or W boost or FNP would make them underpriced by 5 to 10 points easily and require a correction.

What's killing terminators is the current meta puts a lot of platforms that are good at killing terminators in play. Once things swing around to lots of stuff that plasma and massed fire are really bad at killing (ie high AV vehicles) we'll see an opportunity for terminators to be really scary again.

In the meantime, good tactics and lots of terrain will get your terminators to where they can do real damage.

Wow so many great responses!!!!!

I'm not pretending Terminators are the Catch All. They are surgical to be sure but I see there primary attribute - TDA - being diminished in both style and efficacy.
They are bad mama jamma Armored Infantry. But alas there are other units that can do an almost equitable or better job at absorbing fire.

Insert squad of Jink'ing bikes. Having a 4++ or even a 3++ cover save *Again I know there is a difference between invul and cover* not to mention +1T karawr *damn Nurgle Bikers...soooo jealous
Drop Pod full of Tacs/Stern that run into cover
Or the Legion of The Damned - smexi

In my studies and thought experiments and perusing of forums I've come across these statements time and time again.

"Terminators, nah to pricey"
"Terminators, love the fluff always disappointed in production"
"Terminators, why would I use them"
"Termies in *Insert Specific Scenario here* work but blank does it cheaper, better, faster, sexier" *Damn you walmart!!!!*

Shouldn't there be a question as to why is this the primary reaction?

"You're not using them exactly right" - This is a common response to all those who have a problem with a unit and therefore I believe inconsequential in this ideology.

My ideology starts and ends with " Why are terminators not being chosen!?" (not why are they being used poorly )

They are amazing in fluff lore and looks!!!!

So my thought in this thread was to say....

"What small change could be made to Termies to make them more appealing and not glossed or skipped over?"

not OP not like the good ole days. Dear god I loved my CC exarchs that could wreck!!! And the days of yor when Assault Cannons DS'ing into your backfield was not only a thing to be feared but horrifying like a vortex grenade bike suicide!

Refining my ideology I found that I believe Terminators are Bastions of Defense and Stoicism therefore my primary thought was not make them platforms of god damage but defensive structures. Take and Hold, the Emperor wills it be done kinda bad monkey ball elites.

Again I'm looking for ideas on small changes not re-write the history of the world part I.

So think, instead of "Artemis8 is a bastard and too sexy, or you're just not using it right"

"Are Termies used in my club? If not why? "If why is too expensive for use what change would make them appealing"

Loved everyone and their feedback!

I'm liking the skein on toughness. Centurions and Bikes get it

Peace!

Well the interesting thing is that for GK termies are in a good place, but that is because of the wargear we have and the fact they are troops.

Power weapons, stormbolters, and deep strike are standard for the PAGK, when you upgrade them to Termies you are paying for Relentless, 2+, 5++, +1 attack for 13 points.

The things that kill them are weight of fire and the abundance of plasma. What people say about plasma being good for glancing hits and doubling down as anti-TEQ is true. One way of shifting it away would be increasing vehicles durability so plasma isn't the superior jack of all trades. Force melta or lance to become more prevalent. Or you could reduce Plasma's Str which I think would be a horrible idea.

Make their stormbolters rapid fire x 2. Basically double a bolter, so 2 shots at 24" (as normal) and 4 shots at 12"

This would be only for terminator storm bolters, the stable weapon platform nature of the armor allows the increased fire rate compared to normal power armor where even a marine would struggle with the kick back of storm bolter at full auto.

Terminators are not fine. There is very little they can do that can justify their price.

I find that it really depends on their use on how well they do.
Deep-Striking Tactical Terminators: Deep Striking them into the middle of the enemy is one way to get them killed off, but you are most likely just using the rest of the Squad to get the Assault Cannon in range to take down a priority Target.
Deep-Striking Assault Terminators: With a good mix of Thunder Hammers and Lighting Claws o5 just Thunder Hammers is just a good way to draw fire, but you probably wont last till next turn, but everything firing at them is not firing at your.
Mechanized Tactical Terminators: Weather out of a Land Raider or Stormraven [Or Stormwolf] is a good way to get that Assault Cannon in Range.
Mechanized Assault Terminators: One of the Best way to get them into Assault.
Drop Pod Terminators [It is good to be a Space Wolf]: Probably the best way to Get your Terminators where they need to be on Turn 1.
Foot Tactical Terminators: Just take the Cyclone Missile Launcher and they make a great objective Holder. {For Dark Angels the Plasma Cannon]

The other use is how you put them on your list.
One 5 Model Terminator Squad: Looks cool, but is just a bullet Magnet.
Two 5 Model Terminator Squads: Helps split the incoming fire. One trick is to take one Full 10 model Squad and split off the two Assault Cannons in one Combat Squad and the Sargent in the other. This gives you one with a lot of fire power and another to Assault with. The same trick works with 3 Terminator Squads all at a full 10 Man Squads all Combat Squads.

As for increasing their firepower, just make Storm Bolters a Volley weapon. Though that would screw everyone else.
If you think FNP is the answer, look at Dark Angels or Iron Hands, how much has that work out.

The 33ppm model in the new Codex's has made a big difference and may be the way they are going. We will have a better idea though when the Blood Angels come out if that is the way they are going.

The one way I'd see terminators changing is how they take their save. One of the best ways I've seen the armor described is in Black Crusade. That "invulnerable" save isnt some energy field that stops rounds with mystical space magic. Its just that the armour is just that tough. The way I'd see them working is somewhat like how high ballistic skills work. They lose their invulnerable save (the stock ones at least), and they instead become effectively "BS 7" armour save. They get their 2+ save and if they fail, they get a re-roll that works on 5+. For weapons whose AP would noramlly deny them their armor save, they just don't get that "extra" 5+.

So, a 10 strong tactical squad opens up on 5 chaos terminators, one has a grav gun, assume they are all in rapid fire range, and didnt move. So of the 18 bolter shots, lets say 12 hit, and 2 of the grav shots land. both grav wound because the terminators have a 2+ save technically, and 6 bolters get through. The two grav wounds are AP2, so they just take their regular 2+, one fails because dice hate you. Then for the bolter hits, you roll 2 's. You then take your TDA re-roll, and pass one of them. That's two termies down total. Not great, but not bad.

The real issue my little idea has always generated is when other invulnerable saves are taken into account. Since they always get that 2+, no matter what, that 4++ from iron halos and 3++ from storm shields becomes rather irrelevant. I have a few ideas on how this could work, but none of them balance particularly well for what is often a 40 point model. My first thought is that the ++ save acts as a modifier for their "bonus" save, but when AP2/1 weapons come into play, this part get ignored. The one way I came to counter-act this would make TDA overly complicated in a game already wrought with complicated things to begin with. Trying to explain it mechanically is tricky, so an example works best. A captain takes terminater armour, and opts for th/ss combo. The SS improves his "second" save to a 3+ (the SS gives their TDA save a +2 modifier now, and his halo gives +1). He gets shot with a plasma pistol, and it hurts presumably. But he has armor initially designed to walk int he stuff. That AP2 shot (and an other) simply reduce his TDA save by 1. So he does 2+/4+, A meltagun is scary. It gives a -2 modifier, so he would be 2+/5+. Things that "allow no saves of any kind"... well, sorry Cap' that/those wound(s) happen.

I realize that this can lead to some fairly degenerate combinations. Having endurance cast on a unit of IH TH/SS terminators with good old CM superbroke can lead to some issues. an entire unit of 2+/3+/4+FNP will be a royal pain in the butt to remove. But then again that person has sunk ~ 750 points on one unit, it should be tough to kill.

As for offense... I have no clue.

This has come up time and time again but the solution still holds. You can fix them in the following ways:


reduce standard point cost to 37 points.
make the Storm shield+Hammer upgrade 3 points.
allow tac termies to take heavy weapon per 3 guys (not counting serg).
allow the serg to use any power weapon.
give them +1 FNP
unlock Multi-melta's and grav cannons (no amp) for Tac termies
unlock melta bombs for assault termies

They are overpriced. 35 points base would be more reasonable, 30 points for terminators without powerfists.
28 points of tac marines takes just as much to kill as 40 points of terminators.The only exception to this rule is ap3 weapons.

Definitely give them 2 heavy weapons per 5 men. Also, reduce the cost of said weapons by 5 points each.
Again, lets look at tac marines as a comparison. tac marines can take a special weapon for every 5 men, the cost to unlock this weapon choice therefore 70 points. Terminators pay 200 points for the same privilege.
Another issue is ranged damage output. Shooting terminators are plain bad when compared to tac marines. At long range, for their points cost, they are outgunned nearly 3:1, at close range the difference is a staggering 6:1 ratio in firepower.
A current Terminator squad with assault cannon will cost 220 points. With these changes, a terminator squad with 2 assault cannons would cost 205 points. Nothing overpowered, but a good and needed increase in firepower per point.

Combi-weapons would certainly be welcome, to give the squad a greater range of purposes over normal marines, and also to further improve their poor damage output.

Squad-wide special rule upgrades would also be a nice addition. Like the old BT codex, being able to purchase things like tank hunter, hatred, etc
All of these above changes would help make the terminators more efficient for their points, and also give them a greater degree of flexibility. .

Deepstriking terminators could use a little help. I believe the ultramarines terminator formation has the right idea. Let the terminators move/run after they deepstrike, and then still shoot. This will allow them to spread out a little once they land, to prevent pie plate interceptor from being so powerful against them.

With regards to survivability, I think terminator armour should give something more to characters, to make it more competitive when compared to bikes. Currently, bikes are simply better in practically every way than terminator armour. Maybe give EW for characters in terminator armour or something?

For normal terminator squads I don't feel that an increase in survivability is needed. If it was, I would advocate a simple FNP save to terminators, rather than messing with the fundamental mechanics of the game.

T5, 4++, 2w, 2 specs per 5 man, 40ppm

 Las wrote:
T5, 4++, 2w, 2 specs per 5 man, 40ppm

That's quite an increase in survivability. 3 times more survivable in fact. Where would this leave centurions?

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Las wrote:
T5, 4++, 2w, 2 specs per 5 man, 40ppm

That's quite an increase in survivability. 3 times more survivable in fact. Where would this leave centurions?

That is why I like minimal changes like points changes and I am even leery of that much.
Look at grey Knight Strike Squads if it was not for the 33ppm model Terminators they would look great. They are really good, but the Termies are just to cheap compared to them.

Honestly if they had access to a grav cannon or grav guns they would be worth it. Deepstrike and grav is a nice combo.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Las wrote:
T5, 4++, 2w, 2 specs per 5 man, 40ppm

That's quite an increase in survivability. 3 times more survivable in fact. Where would this leave centurions?

Centurions as an assault unit sucks anyway, they are used for their shooting and they have superior range half the time to the AP2 that primarily kills the termies. I think its fair, especially because they mostly still MURDER termies with Grav. I don't think I would give them the 2 specs per 5 man though, with two wounds I think it makes up for not having a second special weapon. Maybe just make that 4++ just a 4++ to shooting.

artemis8 wrote:
First Question!!!! : How do Space Marines give Every Model FnP?

It's the proposed rules forum.

This should be your elite choice process

I want Sternguard
I want Terminators
I want Dreadnaughts
I want everything!!! give it to me nao!

Correct

vipoid wrote:

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
I like adding in extra slots for heavy weapons - 2 out of every 5.

I think it would be nicer if their basic weapons were actually useful. The game is already unfortunately biased towards basic men being little more than ablative wounds for the special weapons guys.

This is a problem for most units. Ideally the game rules would be a bit different to address it.

Jefffar wrote:
I think undoing the nerfing of vehicles that was 6th ed is probably the best thing for bringing terminators back from the brink.

Effective vehicles mean less plasma weapons that can kill two or more terminators at a time and more anti-tank which generally kills one terminator at a time. It also gives those big guns something else to focus on.

Are you thinking of going back towards what vehicles were like in 5th? Where most squads took meltas over plasma.

it is depressing that this is the choice in the first place.

Jefffar wrote:

Now if I was actually rewriting Terminator rules I'd probably give them a similar treatment to Chaos Marines/Grey Knights/Space Wolves and start them with Power Weapons and a price discount. Lightning Claws/Power Fists/Thunderhammers would be upgrades only.

but

the reason that they make options the way they do, like the lightning claws etc, is that the terminator box that they sell has those options.

dunno

A simple answer I have is that shooty Terminators should have the option to have two heavy weapons at 5 men.

Either double up the weapons, or even just "Cyclone + other heavy weapon"

artemis8 wrote:"You're not using them exactly right" - This is a common response to all those who have a problem with a unit and therefore I believe inconsequential in this ideology.

How a player uses a unit is irrelevant in a strategy game?

artemis8 wrote:They are bad mama jamma Armored Infantry. But alas there are other units that can do an almost equitable or better job at absorbing fire.

That's not the point of terminators. Terminators aren't invincible units that slog through everything. They are elite units that have just enough extra armor for them to get the job done.

They're not a horde unit, and they're not an MC. You have to think of terminators more like a strange version of sternguard or a dreadnought.

artemis8 wrote:"Terminators, nah to pricey"
"Terminators, love the fluff always disappointed in production"
"Terminators, why would I use them"
"Termies in *Insert Specific Scenario here* work but blank does it cheaper, better, faster, sexier" *Damn you walmart!!!!*

Shouldn't there be a question as to why is this the primary reaction?

Since when was popular opinion a determiner of truth. Terminators are a tough unit to get the most out of. Because most people don't doesn't mean they're necessarily bad.

artemis8 wrote:"What small change could be made to Termies to make them more appealing and not glossed or skipped over?"

Make them W10 and cost -25 points apiece. You'd get plenty of people taking them then.

Once again, lack of popularity isn't a problem for terminators, it just means they're less popular, nothing more.

The best way to approach terminators is to set up a challenge where you take a squad of terminators with an assault cannon, and a squad of anything else with whatever single loadout you like that make them of equal points value. Then run them both through a gauntlet of a bunch of very different kinds of units.

You'll find that there are things that work better against some targets than terminators, but against most target types, the terminators will beat whatever else you're comparing them too.

They're an elites choice. They exist to be flexible and not be outright bad against very much. Thinking of them as just a durability or just a firepower unit misses the point of terminators entirely.

You'll find that there are things that work better against some targets than terminators, but against most target types, the terminators will beat whatever else you're comparing them too.

Sorry but this is not true. What are you basing this on? Can you give any examples to support your case?

Terminators lose out to pretty much everything most of the time. Use the maths to compare them to regular tac marines in a range of situations and the differences are very clear, and very clearly not in favour of the terminators.

The only time terminators shine over regular marines is against ap3 firepower. Besides this one niche (as ap3 is one of the most uncommon ap values), terminators are worse at dealing damage, recieving damage, transport options, and points cost.

The most painful break from fluff to table thing I find about termies is how easy they drop to common fire. T+1 should definitely become a staple ability of TDA. Another option is to make them squadrons of 1 hp av 11 walkers with their crux/shield save. Watching my friend's big terminator squads lay down to auto gun fire is like watching ultramarine libbies summoning daemons.

Storm bolters also suck out loud...so there's that too.

2 wounds could make a decent replacement for the 1 T. Either of them would buff the armor against small arms without affecting how well anti tank hurts them...since it like...should. Any s8+ anti tank would still ice a base per wound.

StarHunter25 wrote:

So, a 10 strong tactical squad opens up on 5 chaos terminators ... That's two termies down total. Not great, but not bad.

Then they fail their morale test and run like scared little girls... because chaos marines

JubbJubbz, that's another topic entirely which I have much personal bias involved. Astartes who have lived for hundreds/thousands of years in a demi-dimension of unimaginable horror need a magic stick to keep them from being scawwed of the big scawwy wiptide.

Excellent Responses!

To Ailaros - Forgive the misspelling if there is one - I agree how you use a unit is HIGHLY relevant to strategery games. The ideology I'm touting currently is:

"They are not being chosen in the first place"
"Being overlooked"
"Under Appreciated"

You are completely correct how you use a unit and it's properties can place a significant damper or Crux Terminus on the viability of a unit/model/sammich
My ideology and purpose on this thread was to make them enticing Like 1919 root beer! Address the lack of choice not :: "You're not using them incorrectly based on certain scenarios or ideological understanding of Terminators"

In further response if you read the fluff, pomp and circumstance of TDA - They ARE supposed to weather the toughest fire. They really are supposed to slog through the storm and shadow of the valley of death to their objective (which from reading should never be a tar pit squad. Go for MC's, Vehicles, Characters named Jim). From hails of bolters to infamous brightlances and poorly aimed peanut butter sammiches. This is fluffed as THE armor, THE infamy, THE rock. Even Artificer Armor which gives us the awesome 2+ still can't shake a stick at the 5+ smexy that is the invulnerable TDA (from a single piece of wargear).

Yet they can die to a lasgun?

Should they be absolutely Invulnerable? Hell no, I'd hate to have to fight that, and I would be ashamed to use it.

But when you look at other armies and even other chapters Armor and Invul/Cover Saves(They are different I know). Terminators have been left untouched in egregious fashion.

Wraiths have a 3++
Bikes can Jinkles for a 2++ git oft mah lawn!
Legion of the Dammed 3++ smexi

Technically those units can weather MORE fire than Terminators with the abundance of AP2 weaponry (as I've read more abundant than AP3? Still reading)

On a great note!!! My club and I are looking into some of the proposed rules and are going to try out some in the following weeks to see what makes those Termies not OP but smooth and sexy

This week :

+1T

1hp 11av walkers - Interesting when dealing with characters.....


Thank you again all for your continued banter!!! Keep it coming

Updated :: Reason ADHD

Rather than adding +1 T, all weapons/users of strength 5 and below have their Str value reduced by 1 when firing or in making attacks in CC against terminator armour.

examples would be boltguns and space marines in CC would be strength 3 when firing upon terminator armour.

Yeah waves of plasma would still be a problem, but it should be for them, if centurions and wraithguard fall to plasma then so should termies for game balance sake, but it should take a horrendous amount of lasguns to put down a termie squad in one turn considering the terminators overall damage output rather than being a squad consisting of mostly ablative wounds for an assault cannon for example.

It also would not make space marine characters immune to instant death with certain weapons that bumping the T value of the user would. I mean, you think the iron hands chapter master was scary before, how about surrounding him with a bodyguard of T5 2+ 5++ save when his T value is also increased and then having that unit transported in a IWND landraider for even safer delivery of the chapter master. Add in a Dark angels librarian on a bike with a PFG trailing that land raider to make sure it can deliver it's cargo...

That's probably a problem with chapter tactics, not with terminator armor or toughness bonuses.

AV11 1 hp?

I like the idea of exploding termies.

Or weapon destroyed. Wouldn't it be awesome if a Terminator had his Stormbolter shot out of his hand Western style?

More like AV 12, otherwise the Plasma gun remains effectively the same if not better because no to-wound

AV12 is getting into MBT area, so it might be a tad much.