Terminators in 7th edition - How can we help!

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**Haskell**

I'd always believe that TDA should have 2 wounds, point increase to 40-45 points a model is fine for me for space wolves, but TDA units aren't as good as they used to. The only good thing that my TDA guys have done is taking down an Avatar. No toughness or any buffs, adding wounds and toughness.

For the suggest AP1 rule, maybe AP2 4++ and AP1 5++.

I love TDA, the big brother that help out, that's how I saw but now I have my bigger PA guys protecting them.

**Quickjager**

I was also specifically targeting AV12 because that puts the Termies out of all standard troop weapons. Probably is too much.

Just say weapons not above a certain Str can't hurt them and call it a day I guess. Question is where is that now.

**Co'tor Shas**

Well, there is the problem. Maybe something like all weapons S5 or under have to re-roll successful to-wound rolls once. That would make it hard for all the current basic infantry weapons to hurt them. Having S6 do this would be bad however, because that gets rid of an entire race's heavy armour killing weapons (tau).

**koooaei**

TheCustomLime wrote:
Or weapon destroyed. Wouldn't it be awesome if a Terminator had his Stormbolter shot out of his hand Western style?

Weapon destroyed would mean dead termie anywayz. 1 HP. But it's like when falling down, he first drops the gun and cinematically dies.

Oh, and termie wrecks and craters all around the battlefield. Deathwing would be hilarious!

**Quickjager**

Hmmm I'm wondering if resist to Str 5 and lower is too much...

Str 4 is easier to balance... but then we get the Necron and Tau troops staying the same and everyone being less efficent... It wouldn't really affect the Eldar because of their psuedo-rending.

**HansKehr**

Hey
I didn't read much about close combat.
Yet once they're engaged, they're either unimpressive (claws/power sword) or hit last and run the risk of being hacked to bits before lifting a fist.
A special rule allowing Termies to hit at normal initiative with Powerfists/ThHammers?

**Co'tor Shas**

Does the relentless rule do that? If so that would be pretty good.

**koooaei**

Initiative power fists would be too much. Termies can allready perform backflips - i think it's enough for their agility.

And the problem does not lie in close combat. The problem lies with their durability per point cost cause you pay for the gear you won't use with your dead before striking models - power fists. I like the way space wolves and grey knights went. ~~The way of CSM~~ You pay less for less gear. If you want that power fists - buy them exclusively. Termies with fists will cost more than they are now but the thing is that the squad will overall be cheaper and more versatile with maces, and swords.

**vipoid**

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Rather than adding +1 T, all weapons/users of strength 5 and below have their Str value reduced by 1 when firing or in making attacks in CC against

So... +1T, but in a more convoluted manner. Genius.

**AlmightyWalrus**

vipoid wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Rather than adding +1 T, all weapons/users of strength 5 and below have their Str value reduced by 1 when firing or in making attacks in CC against

So... +1T, but in a more convoluted manner. Genius.

It's not, though. A Chapter Master wtih T5 doesn't melt instantly if he gets hit by a lascannon, whereas one with the above suggested rule does.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet, which I firmly believe is one of the biggest weaknesses of Space Marine in general, but especially Terminators. They're very, very vulnerable to a bad rolling streak. Due to the small amount of wounds, only a handful of saves need to fail in order to wipe the entire unit out. For example, let's take a unit of 30 Boyz (without a Nob for simplicity). Such a unit is, on average, as durable to bolter fire as a unit of Terminators, the difference being that the odds of wiping the entire Ork unit out in one go is much less than the equivalent for the Terminators (and that's not going into what cover would do in this case).

Sure, there's an equivalent chance that the Terminators will simply bounce off small-arms fire all day, which the Boyz obviously won't, but the mere risk of losing the entire unit to some stray Heavy Bolter shots limits the unit's efficiency.

**vipoid**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

It's not, though. A Chapter Master wtih T5 doesn't melt instantly if he gets hit by a lascannon, whereas one with the above suggested rule does.

Still not worth making convoluted rules for.

Regardless, haven't GKs already perfectly demonstrated that a point-decrease is all that's needed to make terminators competitive? I mean, they didn't get T5, FNP or any of this nonsense about rolling 2d6 for saves or any such, and yet they're now taken a lot.

**AlmightyWalrus**

vipoid wrote:

Regardless, haven't GKs already perfectly demonstrated that a point-decrease is all that's needed to make terminators competitive? I mean, they didn't get T5, FNP or any of this nonsense about rolling 2d6 for saves or any such, and yet they're now taken a lot.

They're the only decent Troops Choice in that Codex though. They also have Hammerhand, Force Weapons and Psycannons, so they're not a perfect comparsion.

**vipoid**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

They're the only decent Troops Choice in that Codex though. They also have Hammerhand, Force Weapons and Psycannons, so they're not a perfect comparsion.

I think they're better than 'decent'.

Also, do you think hammerhand and force weapons are better than Power Fists or Thunderhammers?

**AlmightyWalrus**

vipoid wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:

They're the only decent Troops Choice in that Codex though. They also have Hammerhand, Force Weapons and Psycannons, so they're not a perfect comparsion.

I think they're better than 'decent'.

Also, do you think hammerhand and force weapons are better than Power Fists or Thunderhammers?

When one considers that they're also Psykers, and thus contributes to the psychic phase, yes. Absolutely.

**Hansisaf**

IMHO, the problem is that there's too much AP2 going around and too little AP3. Survivability goes up drasticly from a 4+ save to a 3+ save but increases little when going up to a 2+ save.

Would it be bad if some AP2 weapons (like Plasma) turned into AP3?

**vipoid**

Hansisaf wrote:
IMHO, the problem is that there's too much AP2 going around and too little AP3. Survivability goes up drasticly from a 4+ save to a 3+ save but increases little when going up to a 2+ save.

Would it be bad if some AP2 weapons (like Plasma) turned into AP3?

I feel that would kill plasma dead. Firstly because it makes the downside a lot harsher, second because it cripples its anti-vehicle capability, third because it cripples its ability to kill a lot of the more troublesome MCs, and finally because it cripples its ability to kill terminators.

Also, the problem is that AP3 just isn't as useful generally. In most cases 3+ saves can just be killed with weight of fire - rather than requiring any dedicated weapons. This isn't the case for a lot of 2+ save units.

**artemis8**

Wow such great responses! And people are being cordial OH NOES the interwebs has broken!

We tried the walker scheme it was awesome!!!

Game Rules were Standard Maelstrom with 6 objectives per Table using Objective Cards

My goal was to use the Terms and Sternguard and Legion with Heavy Support to mess up the Objectives near the Enemy and Pod or slog to the objectives on my sides.

1st Game DS'd into back field with 10 Termies (combat into two squads, PFs and 2 Assault cannons total). Survived a straight ridiculous amount of standard Guardsmen fire (lost one to a heavy bolter squad). Then served up some sexy with destruction of vehicles and specific targets. All in all interesting

2nd Game DS'd into back field against Eldar. Ripped apart two Grav Platforms. First shot from an AP2 weapon blew up 1...then the ENTIRE SQUAD bad rolls and hilarious!!!! Like the old barrage weapons or firecrackers bam.... BAM.... BAM! BAM BAM

3rd Game DS'd into backfield against Tyranids - Got swamped by Hormagaunts who wanted to puddle them into useless-ness. Good tactic + Luck on the Leadership (Thank god he wasn't playing demons double 1's TWICE!!!) - Survived two Carnifex charges though to tear them apart.

All in all an INCREASE in toughness but the tons of new rules and treatment as a walker was interesting and confusing at times (We all had to do research on walker squadrons). Good but complicated solution

Those I fought against were surprised at the change. Terminators were not just insta dying on the table. (Unless kitted for Invul TH/SS)

Tyranid player didn't change tactics at all till he found out his gaunts (20+ the baby maker making more) would only Tar pit not destroy (Pulled in the Carnies (a ranged one as well as a H-t-H one) Btw Termies exploding killed many gaunts!

NOTE : In every battle except the Eldar - Entire Squad was wiped out
NOTE : Every battle Sternguard or Legion of the Dammed was also DS'd or Podded in the Same turn (Gunship was watching the Tactical Pod)
NOTE: All terminator saves were rolled three times (taking first for game, but noting others for discussion later over 1919 root beer, to get a feel for average other rolls to indicate toughness of new change)

Haven't tried the +1T - I'll be playing some skirmishes with more people and let you guys know. We're looking into 10 + good games with each rule (weeding out bad ones that didn't display the correct ideology or dedicated lists - Fought an all vehicle Siam Haim Army - SOOOO many strength 6 shots..... cheese for the win.

Current List

HQ - Tiguris - warlord
HQ - ML2 Librarian in Terminator Armor Force stave
Do you think I like Psykers? Naw

4 Tactical Squads - 2 Assorted Heavies :: 2 In Pods with flamers/plasma homer

1 10 Man Terminator Squad - 2 Assault Cannons

1 Legion of the Dammed Full melta - Heavy Flamer

1 Sternguard Full Pod with Meltas and Combi Plasma

1 Predator - Lascannon Pattern
1 Predator - Lascannon Turret Auto sponson

1 Assault GunShip - Skyhammer Missiles

Not a complete list by far - As I'm still painting my army and borrowing/proxy what I can.

Crazy thing to note. Entrenched units fear Legion of the Dammed + Sternguard. Good lord - Entrenched guard ignored them. Bad Idea. Lictor died assaulting Sternguard before combat. Sexy rolls to be sure.

Keep up the good discussions people!!!!!!

Take care,

**koooaei**

Changing to an av11 walker makes terminators much less durable vs s6+ ap4 or worse. Actually, something like a scatter laser will kill more terminators than tactical marines.

**Quickjager**

Give it AV WITH an armor save of some kind then?

**artemis8**

The rules we're using with walker squadrons are

AV 11 all around
Invul is 5++

So far we're seeing the high ap/high strength weapons - like scatter lasers and heavy bolters killing them quite a bit.

Thank you,

**Tigramans**

The Hammernators are currently allright at the moment.

The massive "but" lies in the shooting terminator squads; they are terrible due to lack of decent wargear options and lousy survivability. Changing the 5++ into 4++ is disputable, but I'd change the unit like this:

Terminator Sergeant may take items from Terminator Weapons and/or Special Issue Wargear lists.

I see no way this addendum would break the unit in overall, or change the internal/outer balance dramatically. It would just bring the shooting terminators to the 7th edition level, and actually playable. I am deeply disappointed, that if I ever wish to field terminators in my games and actually do something else than look cool and die, I must take the melee option - thanks to the GW's notorious way to spread AP2 gear like candy, and lousy 5+ invulnerable save.

**artemis8**

Still great discussions!

We finished a weekend warrior of 7 more games as walkers and it was horrible! AV11 5++ dies way to easily to Tau, Necrons like CANDY! Imp Guard and Scatter lasers melt them along with heavy bolters.

All in all an overall toughness increase it was not.

This week/weekend we're going to try a simple +1 Toughness! (Treating it like a chariot) Slow ass chariot.... (by Chariot just a template applied to stats and saves)

We're going to have the benefit of a couple good players willing to help with this including

Grey Knights

Chaos (Nurge + several other legions) Main interest is how Nurgle will affect the +1T on the Terms

Spacewolves

I'll keep you posted on how we do the things we do!

Thank you,

**artemis8**

All,

Couple more games down!

We here in the Imperium of the George were able to run quite a few games. We were able to run several games which included TDA armors up down left and right.

The +1 Toughness created a massive change in TDA Armor to die to Str 5 or less and of course stayed roughly the same with ST6+ and ap 3+

The biggest contention we had was an issue with "Terminator Like armor" ie Obliterators - This was housed at unless it says TDA or Terminator Armor it isnt affected by the new ruling.

Nurgle had a GREAT showing we were able to play 4 + games with TONS of Terminators and in the end couple games Bikes.

The Terminators T6 had the same Toughness as Nurgle bikes. This seemed initially rough against mob armies but in the end the lack of an always available invul was not so much fun.

All in all it was an amazing change to the Toughness of the Terminators without changing their viability against the massive weapons of the game.

We'll be playing more games this weekend and trying out the following next week ::

+2T will be the name of the game. GAAAAH T7 Nurglnators

Thank you,

**artemis8**

More games down!!!!

It was epic. We played 7ish more games this weekend using Nurgle and Loyalists to check on the Terminator Progress!

+ 1T

So far many people like the new changes. No auto death to lasguns barrages any more. We did another test and had 3 Sets of 10 Terminators walk from Max Troop weapon range, while firing, against troops from IG, SM, Chaos. They had MUCH more defense than before. The Nurglenators were Tough but still not as tough as I thought they would be. They could survive a HAIL of bullets and even a beat stick hero (for a few turns), but in the end dropped as easy as other Terms due to the fact that heavy weapons as of now are currently not being affected by our rule test. Did not know you paid through the NOSE for that Mark of Nurgle.

Anyway!!!!! More games more games more games to play

This week we'll be starting

+2T Biggest issue with this I see is Chaos could cheese this pretty bad.

Thank you for your time,

**J3f**

artemis8 wrote:
More games down!!!!

It was epic. We played 7ish more games this weekend using Nurgle and Loyalists to check on the Terminator Progress!

+ 1T

So far many people like the new changes. No auto death to lasguns barrages any more. We did another test and had 3 Sets of 10 Terminators walk from Max Troop weapon range, while firing, against troops from IG, SM, Chaos. They had MUCH more defense than before. The Nurglenators were Tough but still not as tough as I thought they would be. They could survive a HAIL of bullets and even a beat stick hero (for a few turns), but in the end dropped as easy as other Terms due to the fact that heavy weapons as of now are currently not being affected by our rule test. Did not know you paid through the NOSE for that Mark of Nurgle.

Anyway!!!!! More games more games more games to play

This week we'll be starting

+2T Biggest issue with this I see is Chaos could cheese this pretty bad.

Thank you for your time,

Good to know my preferred method of fixing Terminators works, and works well.

**OnlyWar**

What about giving them two wounds and it will not die? that would make them a lot harder to kill, but they would still die to things like battle cannon shots and other high strength or instant death weapons.

**koooaei**

Wy don't you use centurions than? You've got mellee cunturions with 2 wounds and t5.

**OnlyWar**

becuse i play dark angels, we do not have centurions. as someone who plays an all terminator army, i would say that there are four things that would make terminators more viable.

1. increase their WS and BS by +1. terminators are supposed to be the elite of the elite, and the longest serving veterans in the chapter

2. give them 1+ toughness, terminator armor was originally used to safely enter the plasma core of starships.

3. give them two wounds and IWND. as i said before, terminator armor is incredibly tough, and also comes with many life support systems that even regular power armor lacks.

4. decrease their point cost. a 5 man squad of terminators with not upgrades should cost only a little bit more than a bare bones squad of sternguard

**vipoid**

I'd really rather terminators didn't end up with 2 wounds and IWND and/or extra toughness. There's been enough power creep already.

A cost reduction would certainly make sense - since most other SM stuff has been made cheaper.

**pelicaniforce**

OnlyWar wrote:
becuse i play dark angels, we do not have centurions. as someone who plays an all terminator army, i would say that there are four things that would make terminators more viable.

1. increase their WS and BS by +1. terminators are supposed to be the elite of the elite, and the longest serving veterans in the chapter

2. give them 1+ toughness, terminator armor was originally used to safely enter the plasma core of starships.

3. give them two wounds and IWND. as i said before, terminator armor is incredibly tough, and also comes with many life support systems that even regular power armor lacks.

4. decrease their point cost. a 5 man squad of terminators with not upgrades should cost only a little bit more than a bare bones squad of sternguard

Ah yeah, here is my chance to ask a new person this question. Why don't you post things that are probably original, instead of things that are very obvious and probably have been suggested before? Like, if you acknowledged that the basic formula of +1 to a stat, reduction of points cost, etc, has some real basic attributes, you could probably discuss something really interesting; for instance the OP's actual experience playtesting some of your bullet points.

Just reply, I guess, since that will be a fairly significant data point by itself.