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Is there now an official list what count as Faction or still just the ITC restriction?

ITC/Nova spoke with GW and released their list of factions.

So, currently it's only an ITC official list but you can assume it comes with some approval from GW. Whether you want to do that or not, or agree with it, is your choice.

It is just that some tournaments here still don't care what ITC say, no matter if they have direct contact or not

So without a list from GW it can still be different for some tournaments here.

Yeah, again, believe whatever you'd like.

For all the major tournaments it's likely they'll be adopting this format. Fighting the "its just some TOS!!!" mentality won't go far if you're trying to play competitively, but if you're casual or only doing small events, do whatever you want.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 kodos wrote:
yeah wrong wording, as you will play it as Chaos Detachment
I forgot that CSM as now the name and not Heretic Astrates

Chaos is not a detachment and does not receive objective secured, so this is still wrong.

You have these options for Chaos:

<Legion>
<Chaos Daemon>

to be Chaos Daemon every unit must have the CHAOS and DAEMON faction, but CHAOS is not a valid faction for objective secured.

And again, that is not what Reece's explanation regarding Daemons says. He explicitly said that you have to have the Chaos FACTION Keyword, obviously, but then only said that said model also has to be a Daemon (ie have a Daemon keyword). He reiterated that point multiple times and every single time he said Chaos FACTION keyword, but never once said Daemon FACTION keyword. Unless he somehow got lazy in his explanation to three different people, this means that Daemon can just be a regular keyword instead of a faction keyword, allowing us to use CSM Daemon units in one of our detachments and still get ObSec, as long as every unit is a Daemon.

<Chaos> Is not a listed faction.

If the entire detachment is Chaos/Daemons, you are <Chaos Daemons>

If your entire detachment is intended to be <Legion> you may not include <Chaos Daemons>, without a <Legion>, if you do you are no longer battleforged.

Similarly, if you included <Legion> that ARE both Chaos and Daemon in a <Chaos Daemon> detachment, they do not benefit from their <Legion> traits, but it IS battleforged.

Interesting that that directly contradicts what Reecius says here, multiple times, which was posted the same day.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/08/15/itc-obsec-factoin-keyword-list/

The interpretation you posted makes more sense to me based on what seems to be the intent, though it's not what Reece himself said more than once, even after people said "So I can use CSM Daemon Engines in a Daemon detachment and still get ObSec for my Troops in that detachment."

There may be confusion here, because what I'm saying is NOT contradicting Reece, at all. I got my confirming from him, and I'm "Ujayim" on their threads. My above post clarifies exactly how these interactions work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's an example, I'll break it down even further.

Chaos OBLITERATORS Have the following FACTION keywords.

Chaos, <Mark>, Daemon, Heretic Astartes and Legion.

A Maulerfiend has the FACTION keywords:

Chaos, Mark, Heretic Astartes and Legion.

Now, the Maulerfiend has the KEYWORD "Daemon", but not the FACTION Keyword.

If you want to include unit of OBLITERATORS in a CHAOS DAEMON faction, it's valid, however they receive no Legion traits.

You cannot, however, include a Maulerfiend, as it does not have the FACTION keyword of Daemon, only the descriptor keyword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Possessed, Mutilators and Obliterators are very unique as they are some of the ONLY units in the CSM Codex that have the faction keyword of Daemon. It's very important to distinguish the faction keywords from the generic keywords.

I just double checked, and while I was surprised that Obliterators do in fact have the daemon faction keyword, Possessed and Mutilators have their daemon keyword in the generic category. Makes me wonder if there's a mistake since you'd think all of the Cult of Destruction units would be in the same category.

Right, just Obliterators, then. I was going back and forth from books. My bad.

Also a bit odd is that the FW daemon characters don't have the daemon faction keyword, but it's FW, so nothing their rules writers do should be seen as all that odd.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Also a bit odd is that the FW daemon characters don't have the daemon faction keyword, but it's FW, so nothing their rules writers do should be seen as all that odd.

That's been faqd.

I would guess that oblitorators having faction daemon is a mistake. Makes no sense being different to mutilators.

Reece confirmed for me explicitly on Facebook and on the FLG website that as long as a unit has both the Chaos faction keyword and the Daemon normal keyword, under ITC that is enough to count as Chaos Daemons for purposes of a detachment with ObSec troops.

 Virules wrote:
Reece confirmed for me explicitly on Facebook and on the FLG website that as long as a unit has both the Chaos faction keyword and the Daemon normal keyword, under ITC that is enough to count as Chaos Daemons for purposes of a detachment with ObSec troops.

So... daemon engines in chaos daemon detachments are a go? This is all incredibly confusing.

Arachnofiend wrote:

 Virules wrote:
Reece confirmed for me explicitly on Facebook and on the FLG website that as long as a unit has both the Chaos faction keyword and the Daemon normal keyword, under ITC that is enough to count as Chaos Daemons for purposes of a detachment with ObSec troops.

So... daemon engines in chaos daemon detachments are a go? This is all incredibly confusing.

Based on what Reece has said in the comments of the Frontline Gaming article and what Virules has said he confirmed on Facebook, yes, you can include Daemon Engines in a Chaos Daemons detachment and still have ObSec. It seems a little unintuitive (unless they're planning to include CSM units with the Daemon trait in the Chaos Daemons book, as they did including the Daemon troops in the CSM book), probably owing to them making "Chaos" and "Daemon" faction keywords separate, but it's legal.

Played Nurgle vs nids. Tabled them turn 3 and lost a grand total of 1 model.
Drakes charged all of his shooting turn 1. Genestealers managed to kill a plaguebearer. Scabby oneshotted Swarmlord and Tyrannocyte (vomited on a charging swamlord for 7 wounds and 3 attacks each in melee). Epidemius got to +1 attack and the plaguebearers became a murder horde that can't be killed.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Played Nurgle vs nids. Tabled them turn 3 and lost a grand total of 1 model.
Drakes charged all of his shooting turn 1. Genestealers managed to kill a plaguebearer. Scabby oneshotted Swarmlord and Tyrannocyte (vomited on a charging swamlord for 7 wounds and 3 attacks each in melee). Epidemius got to +1 attack and the plaguebearers became a murder horde that can't be killed.

What was your list?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
<Chaos> Is not a listed faction.

If the entire detachment is Chaos/Daemons, you are <Chaos Daemons>

If your entire detachment is intended to be <Legion> you may not include <Chaos Daemons>, without a <Legion>, if you do you are no longer battleforged.

Similarly, if you included <Legion> that ARE both Chaos and Daemon in a <Chaos Daemon> detachment, they do not benefit from their <Legion> traits, but it IS battleforged.

So the idea with a Vanguard Detachment of a Heretic Astartes HQ and 3x Oblits to get for e.g. Alpha Legion Keyword does not work?
Or does it work because Oblits have Heretic Astartes and Daemon keyword....sorry that im asking again. As a new player it is hard for me to follow all this things.

It works because everything is Detachment based

A Heretic Astartes Vanguard Detachment with Alpha Legion Trait and a Chaos Daemon Detachment for ObSec always works

 DortmundOutpost wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
<Chaos> Is not a listed faction.

If the entire detachment is Chaos/Daemons, you are <Chaos Daemons>

If your entire detachment is intended to be <Legion> you may not include <Chaos Daemons>, without a <Legion>, if you do you are no longer battleforged.

Similarly, if you included <Legion> that ARE both Chaos and Daemon in a <Chaos Daemon> detachment, they do not benefit from their <Legion> traits, but it IS battleforged.

So the idea with a Vanguard Detachment of a Heretic Astartes HQ and 3x Oblits to get for e.g. Alpha Legion Keyword does not work?
Or does it work because Oblits have Heretic Astartes and Daemon keyword....sorry that im asking again. As a new player it is hard for me to follow all this things.

That would count as they all have the <legion> keyword. Of course in this instance it doesn't matter as there are no troops.
This is house ruling for tournaments anyway so I wouldn't worry about it.. It's simple unless you start mixing Chaos Marine and Daemon stuff in the same detachment.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Played Nurgle vs nids. Tabled them turn 3 and lost a grand total of 1 model.
Drakes charged all of his shooting turn 1. Genestealers managed to kill a plaguebearer. Scabby oneshotted Swarmlord and Tyrannocyte (vomited on a charging swamlord for 7 wounds and 3 attacks each in melee). Epidemius got to +1 attack and the plaguebearers became a murder horde that can't be killed.

What was your list?

Batallion:
Epidemius
Herald

Nurglings
Nurglings
30 Plaguebearers instrument

plague drones
plague drones (just take more plaguebearers instead :p)

Heldrake baleflamer
Heldrake baleflamer

Supreme command:
malefic lord
malefic lord
DP

Superheavy:

Scabby.

Heldrakes get in there turn 1 and their kills count for epidemius. Nurglings block deepstrike and capture objectives. Everyone else just goes slowly and doesn't die. Really simple army to use strategically. It all comes down to tactical decisions.

Nice! How is scabby performing?

Well he will kill anything he touches. Also his flamer is amazing. Also casts 3 powers. Also really hard for him to die. I'd say he's preeeeetty good. The only thing preventing me for taking him more is because I want to take more different things

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well he will kill anything he touches. Also his flamer is amazing. Also casts 3 powers. Also really hard for him to die. I'd say he's preeeeetty good. The only thing preventing me for taking him more is because I want to take more different things

Glad to hear it! Been sitting on my shelf for years and he needs to get out... any changes you'd make to the list? I'm planning something very similar.

Is Scabby the big GUO that Forgeworld makes? I really need to get that model as the current GW version of the GUO really is missing the G (he's smaller than a Daemon Prince if the pictures are any indication).

The Glottkin make a good stand in for him.

So questions on the Giant Chaos Spawn unit...

1) It says " At the start of each turn, the Giant Chaos Spawn mutable..."
What is "each turn"? Is it...
a) Player 1's is a "turn" and Player's 2 is a "turn"? or...
b) Both Player 1's and 2's is a "turn"?

2) If it gets to greater than 19 wounds, it games the keyword of <Titanic>. That just allows the model to walk over enemy models... right? Are there other Titanic abilities?

Each players turn. Only when you use that stat. IE you won't ever use the movement roll on your opponents turn.

 whembly wrote:
So questions on the Giant Chaos Spawn unit...

1) It says " At the start of each turn, the Giant Chaos Spawn mutable..."
What is "each turn"? Is it...
a) Player 1's is a "turn" and Player's 2 is a "turn"? or...
b) Both Player 1's and 2's is a "turn"?

2) If it gets to greater than 19 wounds, it games the keyword of <Titanic>. That just allows the model to walk over enemy models... right? Are there other Titanic abilities?

A really quick perusal of the rulebook would have cleared this up. Turn refers to player turn, so your option A. Your option B would be considered a battle round. So one battle round consists of two player turns. You roll for the mutable stats on the Spawn on each turn when they're used--on your turn you can roll for all 3 stats (and potentially heal/grow 3 times) on a turn you're charging into combat; on your opponent's turn you could only roll for 2 at most, if the Spawn is locked in combat.

Your second question I'm not 100% on, but I believe Titanic is just a designator keyword, I don't believe it confers any abilities like the ignoring intervening models like you asked, but I could be wrong. The big thing is that certain weapons inflict more damage vs models with Titanic, to help chew up those really big (usually) super--heavy models. The Giant Spawn getting Titanic is more about making them more vulnerable to huge guns if they swell up to enormous size.

Yeah, the Titanic keyword is only a bad thing from all the rules that effect it (there aren't really that many anyways) that I can see.