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Much appreciated.

I added a brief mention of the new units to the original post under an "Upcoming" heading. Hopefully we will get some previews relatively soon that will allow for information to be fleshed out.

My initial thoughts:

Nexos: Might be our rumored "mini Primus" given the description they put with its unveiling. I'm hoping his ambush manipulation will work while he is on the table rather than needing to ambush alongside squads, since it doesn't appear he has much in the way of weaponry (Auto Pistol?) but even still it could help mitigate some of the reliance on multiple Primus for ambush delivery. The Primus should still be in a good spot due to Meticulous Uprising.

Neophyte Bikers: I feel as if GW might have been reading my posts...

 Strat_N8 wrote:

2. Biker Hybrids - Either Acolytes or Neophytes mounted on civilian motor bikes to provide a non-Sentinel Fast Attack option while keeping with the repurposed aspect of the army.

 Strat_N8 wrote:
For the GSC:
Also Acolyte and Neophytes on civilian bikes would be neat as a fast ground unit, with Neophytes perhaps with attack-bike style sidecars carrying a Heavy Stubber or Flamer while Acolyte bikers get access to Demolition Charges.

Anyway, I'm quite excited to see what these beauties can do. At first glance it looks like the regular bikers get a choice between shotguns or stub-guns for their default weapon and blasting charges. I've read in a handful of places that the lady with the sniper rifle is a character, which might be very interesting. The mobility of a bike paired with character shooting protection and the ability to snipe could be quite a potent combination. As for the regular bikers, I think their utility will depend on how expensive they are and how large the squad can get. If they mirror most bikers, I'd expect 3-10 but we might see more than that. They should make for nice ambush support like Scout Sentinels and as an added tool for harrying enemy artillery. I'm very curious to see how the ATV works. I suspect it will be a clone of the Space Marine Attack Bike but with mining weaponry (probably looking at T4 with 2 wounds). If they can be run as squadrons of their own they might be nifty as a quick-moving anti-armor team that can lurk among other mechanized units or as chaff removal.

When the book goes to pre-order I will ready a new thread for implementation.

 Causalis wrote:
I really hope we get at least ONE unit that can tank some damage. As of right now our codex exists almost exclusively of "Suicide Teams" that come in from ambush etc. kill or heavily damage a target and then promptly get just obliterated the next turn.

From my experience that's sorta the role for Goliath vehicles at the moment (more so the Rockgrinder than the stock Truck since it wants to get up close like most of the infantry). They don't like mass mid-strength guns though which is an issue for the army across the board.

The army as a whole since 7th has been built on the idea of offense being the best defense, so I don't expect to see anything especially tanky (in the vein of Imperial Knights or similar) added. That said, I'd love a mining dozer converted into a super-heavy battle fortress...

Strat I think you're right and I'll be trying the bikes as another element in a cheap, saturated horde-like, mechanized deployment. I've got a unit of 3x Sentinel Powerlifters, 3x Cyclops Demolition Vehciles (made from Kataphron Breacher bases), 2 Rockgrinders (w/Saw Acolytes) and intend to get a few squads of the bikes. That leaves 2 Basilisks, 2 HVY Weapon Squads w/Mortars, and 2 Sniper Command Squads with a Company Commander in the backfield with 3 screening units. That's my intended 1000 point(ish) anchor while the rest of the army is in ambush. I like the idea of more squishier targets than I do a few tough ones. If any of those advancing units get into range they will do damage and pave the way for an opening for the rest of the army.

From my experience that's sorta the role for Goliath vehicles at the moment (more so the Rockgrinder than the stock Truck since it wants to get up close like most of the infantry)

I don't see what would qualify those to be an anvil unit in any way. They are neither threatening enough that the opponent has to shoot them not are they cheap enough to be taken in sufficient numbers. They are light vehicles that can't take punishment very well.

I am often tempted to compare GSC to my Dark Eldar. They too have squishy T3 models and light vehicles. But at least I can take Grotesques with a 4++ and a 5+ FNP. That's a decent anvil unit. And I just wish the Cult had something similar that doesn't just keel over when 10 Marines open up with bolters. Like some sort of especially beefy Abberants or maybe something akin to a GK Dreadknight that looks like a massive exoskeleton designed for mining work (a bit like the Power Lifters) etc.

Of course I am aware that GSC are a horde army, both in fluff and in design. But having something substantial would me much appreciated.

I hope they double down on the horde aspect and give us a Tide of Traitors like stratagem, along with points reductions in the Troops/Transport department. The rumoured strat where we get a combo Tide + Return to Shadows would be amazing. Sure...kill my guys, there are more and more and more. Maybe it's good to think of GSC as assault Guard. Attrition, layers of redundancy and weight of dice.

I think this is a tough army to play that current punishes us both for small mistakes AND on poor dice rolls at the wrong time. The best we can hope for is that the codex reduces the randomness to a degree so our decisions can be effective on tactical merit, rather than a bottleneck of pivotal dice rolls. If you want tough units you can dip into Tyranids or Guard.

I'm hoping that we'll also see a lot of de-buff capability to double down on our effective 'offense is the best defense' strategy. Shutting down a key aura could go a long way against certain deathstar formations.

I just hope they give brood brothers guardsmen/vehicles some cool regimental abilities and orders.

They could really emphasize the saboteur nature of genestealers. If anyone else would get the Vect stratagem, it would be the cult. Make their defenses revolve around turning off crucial abilities rather than any inherent toughness. A squad of marines is gonna pop a nasty shooting stratagem, reroll all misses, and tear up a squad of acolytes? Turn off the stratagem and the aura, and they’ll weather the damage much better without the need for increased toughness or saves which would be at odds with their rag-tag nature.

Forces like the Vietcong didn’t win battles through their superior firepower or armor, they hindered and harried while ignoring their own losses to eventually make the battle infeasible to continue despite their enemy having a huge military advantage.

The rumour in the Vigilus thread was that the sniper on a bike was a special character, but no mention of what her rules were. There are also more units to come...

Not sure why people are complaining about the lack of anvil units when we have leman russes. Yes they aren’t stellar but they get the job done. Once knights (hopefully) get their balance pass in CA the meta should be less skewed towards killing T8 and the russ should become better

CA rumors are indicating normal Knights aren't being adjusted at all. just the Dominus ones.

You also explained in your own post why people don't want to use Russes; they're not good.

C4790M wrote:
Not sure why people are complaining about the lack of anvil units when we have leman russes. Yes they aren’t stellar but they get the job done. Once knights (hopefully) get their balance pass in CA the meta should be less skewed towards killing T8 and the russ should become better

On a point for point basis the best anvil unit is the Artemia pattern hellhound. 81 points for a T7 W11 A3+ Chimera chassis. 690 for a 3 commissar 3 Artemia 3 HWS mortar brigade. Infantry squads are also technically anvil units at 4 points per model.

Guard ones are decent though, I think we can ally in decent Russes for at least a big enough threat to draw fire. Thinking out loud though

For a fruitful discussion we should first agree on what qualifies an anvil unit as such.

The LR for me isn't an anvil unit since its only "tanking quality" is being T8.

Dark Eldar Grotesques on the other hand are an anvil unit because they have a lot of damage mitigation in form of a 4++ and a FNP, paired with T5 which makes them good against most anti-infantry weapons.

The Russ also doesn't help to protect our units from other melee threats. Yes, it draws anti tank fire (somewhat) away from our Goliaths.

My reasoning for allying in 3 Carnifexes with OOE is that 1. they can absorb melee charges 2. they still draw anti tank fire 3. they have damage mitigation since I can give them a -1 to-hit and 4. they are somewhat cheap.

Another problem is that our army wants to be really close to our enemy (for melee and since most of our shooty weapons want to be in 12" for RFR or even closer like Shotguns) but we aren't really that fast. Our melee units come in via ambush which means we have to wait for Turn 2 and also have to hope for good rolls - otherwise they might fail their charge and will just be wiped.

Compare this to Orks. Also a horde army (that's at least one viable playstyle). Also need to get close or into melee. But now they are very, very fast. Speedfreek units can easily manage a T1 charge.

If the codex gives us the tools to be right up in the enemy's grill on Turn 1 then yes, I think we don't neccessarily need anvil units.

Today’s Tales from Vilgus is about our mysterious gunslinger Primus. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/11/30/the-three-armed-gunfightergw-homepage-post-3/

1. Sounds like he will indeed be a unique named character.
2. He is armed with 3 heavy autostub pistols. Not sure if these have been used anywhere else but I assume he’ll have S4 since they are compared to a heavy Stubber in the story.

 Causalis wrote:

I don't see what would qualify those to be an anvil unit in any way. They are neither threatening enough that the opponent has to shoot them not are they cheap enough to be taken in sufficient numbers. They are light vehicles that can't take punishment very well.

A typical Carnifex is going to be running close to the cost of a Rockgrinder (cheapest grinder is 13 points more than a barebones dakkafex with Spore Cysts), so it isn't too far off a comparison. Both have T7, Grinders trade a 3+ for 2 more wounds, +2'' to their movement, and always on 6+ FNP.

I tend to run fairly heavy on trucks and grinders, so usually the opponent only has vehicles as an option to shoot at until turn 2 when ambushers come in. By that point the vehicles and their cargo are up in their grill and threatening assault (grinders) or else have delivered their cargo (trucks). A lot of the perceived threat depends on what exactly the vehicles are carrying.

Hopefully he can target Characters too with aim like that!

Played a 2K points game against Tyranids today.

Tried to make some Shotgun + Flamer Neophytes work again. Put them and a Magus in a Chimera with 2 HF. Lo and behold, the squad did something for once! Very effective combo at clearing screens. The Magus can buff them to S4 so they can actually do a bit HTH. Between their two flamers, 18 S4 shotgun shots (I took 11 Neophytes, 2 with flamers and the rest with shotguns) and the Chimera adding two heavy flamers to the mix they shredded 15 Genestealers and 5 Warriors (not in the same turn of course).
They are also a nice counter-punch unit that we can park in the backfield against other melee armies. And once their units come storming in the Neophytes can disembark and roast stuff alongside their ride.

In the end I won 15-11. All of my infantry units were either in reserve or in a transport. But the game still just showed me again that the Goliaths are not tanky units. He only had a single Exocrine and it still deleted my Truck in one go. If our transports get a good pricecut in the codex then yes, we might be able to spam them enough so that the enemy can't just delete them all in one or two turns. But right now both Goliath variants are just too expensive.

Also the Rockgrinder has THE worst "deathroller"-esque weapon in the game. The Bonebreaker has more attacks and hits on 2s. The Fleshmower from the Plague Drone is also better at hitting and a plague weapon if I'm not mistaken. Hopefully the codex will buff the Grinder a bit. Give it WS 4+ and +1 to-hit when it charged. Maybe some way to deal mortal wounds (stratagem or something). It should mow through a horde of Cultists without even slowing down, not kill two or three and then stand there uselessly.

Well I think if you're just putting them in Chimeras and pushing them up the board you're going to find them to be bad almost
everytime. That seems like a definite case of "playing the unit wrong" rather than any weakness with the unit imo.

Ok, so how would you suggest to play that unit?

Like was said, Ambushing in with a Primus and Magus support for a potential Might or Hypnosis if needed. Throwing them into what they can do a lot of damage to and leaving the surviving bodies to tie something up in your opponent's shooting phase.

To me that seems a bit of an odd choice. I would rather use that Primus for an Acolyte squad - and even when they are ambushing in, that squad probably wants a 6 to get close enough to use the S4 of their shotguns.

I agree though. Just charging them forward often gets them killed before they reach their target. Thus I will try to play them more defensively. Hide them in their Chimera and use them to protect my deployment zone against deepstrikers or incoming melee units.

Edit: When we get the codex I could potentially see a big unit with Shotguns, Flamers and SCs ambushing in with a Magus (with the WT that lets him choose the ambush result). Just choose a 6, position the unit close to their target and buff them with Might from beyond. They should shred infantry and screens quite well.

I hope we get a character or something that can buff our shooting units with re-roll 1s or smth so that ambushing in Neophytes becomes a more valid alternative to just ambushing in Acolytes/Aberrants.

Having the icons work for melee and ranged attacks would help a lot. As is, they kinda suck for neophyte squads.

Guardsmen without the Orders system is a big hindrance though. That’s what lets them actually hurt things with their punt weapons. As is, autoguns, heavy stubbers and seismic cannons are just a bunch of sound and fury signifying nothing.

Agreed. I also think Seismic Cannons should be assault weapons. They want to be close to their target to use the stronger profile but they punish our units for moving, which is very at odds with what the weapon wants to do.

Heavy stubbers should just be assault if mounted on vehicles and -1 AP (across all armies that have access to them).

 Causalis wrote:
To me that seems a bit of an odd choice. I would rather use that Primus for an Acolyte squad - and even when they are ambushing in, that squad probably wants a 6 to get close enough to use the S4 of their shotguns.

I agree though. Just charging them forward often gets them killed before they reach their target. Thus I will try to play them more defensively. Hide them in their Chimera and use them to protect my deployment zone against deepstrikers or incoming melee units.

Edit: When we get the codex I could potentially see a big unit with Shotguns, Flamers and SCs ambushing in with a Magus (with the WT that lets him choose the ambush result). Just choose a 6, position the unit close to their target and buff them with Might from beyond. They should shred infantry and screens quite well.

I hope we get a character or something that can buff our shooting units with re-roll 1s or smth so that ambushing in Neophytes becomes a more valid alternative to just ambushing in Acolytes/Aberrants.

if it seems weird then just don't run shotgun Neophytes. If you see what Red Corsair was saying about them, their strength is thathat a full unit of Purestrains is overkill a lot of the time, where a unit of Neophytes with a Primus buff, Icon and might often hits hard enough to do the job except for a fraction of the price, and because they are getting the Primus + stratagem re-roll it also means they can use Shotguns to get a double tap at the start in S4 range. Just skipping all that was said about using them to good effect, and throwing a full unit of shotgun Neophytes to charge up the board isn't going to do any of that and isn't likely to be a very successful strategy. Similar story to when we were talking about the strengths of the Patriarch and you said that it wasn't very good, but then I noted that you weren't playing it in the way we had said was strong. How you use a unit is just as important as how you equip it, the two need to work in harmony.

So in order to make them work I should ambush them with a Primus but also buff them with the Magus or Iconward. How do you go about doing this? Ambush those characters too and then congaline the Neophytes to be near the Iconward?

And I did try running the Patriarch as described here. With a bunch of Neophytes around him as a meatshield. Didn't do much apart from the screen dieing. He is just too expensive in my eyes for what he does.

I also don't quite understand why you are so against sticking them in a Chimera etc. It protects them, adds firepower and is fast enough to deliver them where they want to go by turn 2. Yet I think with that setup they might be better at protecting my deployment zone.

Next game I'll try both. Ambushing in a squad with a Primus (and trying to position my Magus so that he can buff them) and the Chimera squad will fortify my backfield.

Would you advice ambushing in 20 Neophytes or just 10 dudes? I appreciate your insights.

 Causalis wrote:
So in order to make them work I should ambush them with a Primus but also buff them with the Magus or Iconward. How do you go about doing this? Ambush those characters too and then congaline the Neophytes to be near the Iconward?

And I did try running the Patriarch as described here. With a bunch of Neophytes around him as a meatshield. Didn't do much apart from the screen dieing. He is just too expensive in my eyes for what he does.

I also don't quite understand why you are so against sticking them in a Chimera etc. It protects them, adds firepower and is fast enough to deliver them where they want to go by turn 2. Yet I think with that setup they might be better at protecting my deployment zone.

Next game I'll try both. Ambushing in a squad with a Primus (and trying to position my Magus so that he can buff them) and the Chimera squad will fortify my backfield.

Would you advice ambushing in 20 Neophytes or just 10 dudes? I appreciate your insights.

Neophytes with a Primus. Just ambush the magus solo, he doesn't need a particulary good roll to make it into cast range, and even with bad luck you can use a CP re-roll there.

Shotty's are basically a 6" weapon to see any advantage for them, this is why Red Corsair was saying to basically take them simply because you are using them with the intention of getting a near-guaranteed 9" deploy into free move, into assault, from the Stratagem + Primus deployment. You're the one saying they have been bad every game for you, I'm pointing out that nobody said they would be good in Chimera's. If you think they are good in Chimera's then do so, you were the one saying that they sucked for you? I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

If ambushing them with a Primus and Magus support, take a full 19 to 20 man unit, with a banner.

If you’re looking to add some serious muscle to your Genestealer Cults, the Anointed Throng will help you do just that. This Specialist Detachment unlocks a number of useful tricks, including a Warlord Trait that adds 1 to charge rolls for nearby Anointed Throng units, and the Blessed Sledgehammer relic that improves your Abominant’s weapon to a tank-busting AP of -4. If you’re looking to take on a particularly powerful foe, why not charge them with an Aberrant unit and activate Devotion Till Death – even if they die, you may find yourself able to take out a choice target for the loss of a much cheaper unit!

Genestealer Cults players will also have access to the Deliverance Broodsurge, representing flotillas of Goliath Trucks brimming with Hybrids.

From Warhammer Community today.

That was all I needed to buy 15 Aberrants. :^)

"pile in and fight" is interesting wording. RAW you get to pile in, then fight so pile in again, etc. In practice makes absolutely no difference though, there's no tricks to be had there so pointless anyway. But interesting wording

Oh it absolutely matters. You're piling in during the enemies turn, and you're deciding which models to remove. You can very, very easily daisy chain things within 4" of other enemy units/trap them in such a way that if they kill any single model from your Aberrants and they weren't careful, you can just pile into that unit and have it locked down already.

I think it has some real teeth.

Before some quotes me into oblivion, see below. I misread.

it won't be locked down cause that model is getting removed at the end of the phase anyway, and isn't doing any damage to anything it didn't already charge. So there's no real tricks possible in there. Use it to make Abberants kill a Knight in a turn basically.