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 Dulahan wrote:

 Darkwrath121 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
That relic with the +1 to invulnerable save...... Imagine that, and the 5+++ warlord trait on a shield captain on a bike with a stormsheild (not sure that it's even legal).

That would be 7 wounds, toughness 6, 2++ save, 5+++, and a lot of attacks to back it up.

No stormshield on the bike. But there is a relic bike with 3++.
I hope that +1 invuln is capped at 3++...

I'm pretty sure that's a straight up rule somewhere, that Invuls can never be higher than 3++

Invuls can be 2+

stratigo wrote:
Just for the sake of math, it will take 8 melta missile shots to kill a leman russ on average after the bikes move, but without reroll 1 support (it is exactly 14 wounds).

In return it takes 4 distinct battle cannon shots to kill 1 biker (there's a little overkill that gets lost), without order support or rerolling 1s from a non tank commander russ.

Luckily 8 Melta shots also translates into 24 Melee attacks rerolling wounds on the charge, as well. Most of the time.

 Dulahan wrote:

 Darkwrath121 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
That relic with the +1 to invulnerable save...... Imagine that, and the 5+++ warlord trait on a shield captain on a bike with a stormsheild (not sure that it's even legal).

That would be 7 wounds, toughness 6, 2++ save, 5+++, and a lot of attacks to back it up.

No stormshield on the bike. But there is a relic bike with 3++.
I hope that +1 invuln is capped at 3++...

I'm pretty sure that's a straight up rule somewhere, that Invuls can never be higher than 3++

The Emperor's Chosen army trait for being pure Custodes detachment gives +1 to Invulnerables and says it cannot exceed 3+, but that's it. If the Relic doesn't stipulate this limitation then i'd assume you could get higher than a 3+ Invulnerable save using it..? How it interacts with their army trait though I have no idea.

Edit: Just saw the article today for Relics and Traits, and the Eagle Eye does say to a maximum of 3+.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/20/adeptus-custodes-preview-6-warlord-traits-relicsgw-homepage-post-2/

 Cephalobeard wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Just for the sake of math, it will take 8 melta missile shots to kill a leman russ on average after the bikes move, but without reroll 1 support (it is exactly 14 wounds).

In return it takes 4 distinct battle cannon shots to kill 1 biker (there's a little overkill that gets lost), without order support or rerolling 1s from a non tank commander russ.

Luckily 8 Melta shots also translates into 24 Melee attacks rerolling wounds on the charge, as well. Most of the time.

32. Bikes have 4 attacks each.

its like GW has learned that 2++ are horrible. Good.

so now that you number crunshers has an idea about the army whit all the leaks and prews, what units have a questionable value for its point cost?

my budget is limted and i dont want to waste it on models that wont preform any good in a pure casual AC army.

Let the complaining about the Guard getting immunity to morale commence again!

 Cephalobeard wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Just for the sake of math, it will take 8 melta missile shots to kill a leman russ on average after the bikes move, but without reroll 1 support (it is exactly 14 wounds).

In return it takes 4 distinct battle cannon shots to kill 1 biker (there's a little overkill that gets lost), without order support or rerolling 1s from a non tank commander russ.

Luckily 8 Melta shots also translates into 24 Melee attacks rerolling wounds on the charge, as well. Most of the time.

If you can get a -1 to hit vexilla near the bikes (which shouldn’t be too hard) then each Leman Russ does 1.55 wounds, assuming it fires twice. Not all that much really - though in reality that number would be slightly higher with Cadian or Catachan tactics.

That translates to about 3 leman russ tanks required to kill a bike each turn.

In return, a biker does an average 1.75 wounds to a leman russ, if moving (which it should be against IG). So that’s 7 shots to kill a tank.

A Leman Russ with just a heavy bolter and battlecannon costs 152 points. The bike is 105 with salvo launcher.

7 bikes cost 735 points and kill 152 points/turn. 3 Leman Russ cost 456 points and kill 105 points a turn. Dividing the cost you kill by the cost required to kill it, the Leman Russ score .230 and the bikes score .207. So Leman Russ are more efficient at killing bikes than vice versa... ignoring their heavy bolters, regimental tactics and the devastating cc ability of the bikers!

The bikes also don’t degrade like Leman Russ do. All in all, I think these bikes are a decent answer to LRBTs. It still might be better to give them hurricane bolters to sweep the screens away, and then get to work with spears. A squad of 3 bikes can do cheeky things like charge one tank and consolidate into others, seriously wrecking their firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
so now that you number crunshers has an idea about the army whit all the leaks and prews, what units have a questionable value for its point cost?

my budget is limted and i dont want to waste it on models that wont preform any good in a pure casual AC army.

Terminators, I think. 84 points for a unit with a damage output very similar to normal Custodes, but one more wound, seems to many to me. I suggest getting bikes instead, replacing the need for shenanigans teleporting to vexillas (at a huge CP cost) with just being really fast.

Strictly speaking I think I’d recommend holding on until we see the FW rules. I doubt many of us will manage to do that though.

I’m not at all sold on Trajan Valorie either, for what it’s worth. He seems only a little better than a shield captain, for twice the cost.

 Irbis wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

changemod wrote:
Actually I really don't like how the back of the torso looks on the 3D rotation of the Allarus guys.

That was my first reaction, too. I think it's the round thingies for me, more specifically the rectangular holes in them. Look like Tau sept icons if you ask me.

Why? Looks industrial, like slotted bolts, kind of fitting seeing it's reactor unit:

I prefer to see Tau symbols rather than industrial slotted bolts, because to be honest the last thing I want super blingy hand-made armor individually crafted by master artificers to look like is "industrial". There's plenty of room for that in different branches of the Imperium. Custodes should be far removed from that kind of look.

 Darkwrath121 wrote:
- Allarus can move 6" - 84pts each with axe

Not that I expected any less, really, but those had better be the best Terminators ever. Guess I'll not have to worry about filling points, at least...

Nope sorry, the terminators are barely distinct. Same stats in every respect but for an attack for being veterans, a wound for the extra bulk of their plate and a teleporter built in.

The models are exciting but the rules honestly don't add much. Still ordered 5 things this week and will be doing about the same next though.

I think what I was gonna invest in the terminators, I'm gonna put into Jetbikes. Terminators are cool in both models and rules but I have already a heavy terminator force with my Dark Angels. And those jetbikes are beautifull.

 Galas wrote:
its like GW has learned that 2++ are horrible. Good.

Well, unlike 7th, there are things like Mortal Wounds as well as spells and other things to negate/reduce inv. saves. There are a few 2++ in 8th Ed. (e.g. Harald Deathwolf) and thus far they haven't made that much of a splash, to be honest.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Let the complaining about the Guard getting immunity to morale commence again!

At what cost?

At 4 points per Conscript it wouldn't be overpowered in the slightest. Infantry squads' morale checks noone ever cared about anyway.

Yeah, the Terminators are pretty and I don't regret pre-ordering two boxes. But is it really that much to ask to have useful Terminators? Just once? Sigh.

But then again I used my Kastelan Robots to full effect for the first time today and I'm kind of disgusted of their rules. I guess I'll never have to feel that filthy playing Custodes.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Galas wrote:
its like GW has learned that 2++ are horrible. Good.

Well, unlike 7th, there are things like Mortal Wounds as well as spells and other things to negate/reduce inv. saves. There are a few 2++ in 8th Ed. (e.g. Harald Deathwolf) and thus far they haven't made that much of a splash, to be honest.

I know. But spamming the game with 2++ and then counter-spamming the spam with spam of MW doesn't make a good gameplay experience. MW are a answer to high invulnerable saves, and high invulnerable saves have their place, but I'll love for them to keep the balance.

 Geifer wrote:
Yeah, the Terminators are pretty and I don't regret pre-ordering two boxes. But is it really that much to ask to have useful Terminators? Just once? Sigh.

But then again I used my Kastelan Robots to full effect for the first time today and I'm kind of disgusted of their rules. I guess I'll never have to feel that filthy playing Custodes.

Terminators are totally fine in a low-end competitive enviroment (High-mid tier of casual-competitive balance). You don't feel punished for using them unlike in past editions (Or in 8th with things like a Stompa), and they can be very effective. They don't make the cut in the highest competitive end with the strongest of the lists, but 90% of the game doesn't has a place in that kind of enviroment. Normally I balance my lists, if I take some weaker units like Sisters of Silence, then I take a stronger unit to compensate like Celestine+Bullgrynns.

Got my preorder in for my Limited Edition. Was just too awesome to pass up.

Yep, I'm a sucker.

Collectors Edition and 2x Dice acquired.

Limited Edition, while cool, does not feel worth it for $200.

 Therion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Let the complaining about the Guard getting immunity to morale commence again!

At what cost?

At 4 points per Conscript it wouldn't be overpowered in the slightest. Infantry squads' morale checks noone ever cared about anyway.

This, morale immunity is nice when it is tied to a 30 point model, but this guy will cost more than 3 squads of infantry (and a relic). I don't see any issue here.

 Galas wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
Yeah, the Terminators are pretty and I don't regret pre-ordering two boxes. But is it really that much to ask to have useful Terminators? Just once? Sigh.

But then again I used my Kastelan Robots to full effect for the first time today and I'm kind of disgusted of their rules. I guess I'll never have to feel that filthy playing Custodes.

Terminators are totally fine in a low-end competitive enviroment (High-mid tier of casual-competitive balance). You don't feel punished for using them unlike in past editions (Or in 8th with things like a Stompa), and they can be very effective. They don't make the cut in the highest competitive end with the strongest of the lists, but 90% of the game doesn't has a place in that kind of enviroment. Normally I balance my lists, if I take some weaker units like Sisters of Silence, then I take a stronger unit to compensate like Celestine+Bullgrynns.

I'll happily give it a try (not the least because I'm going to have the models ), but at my local store Terminators of any kind haven't performed well at least when I was watching.

I play the models I like with little other consideration. It's just disheartening having some choices which are total trash and then in the next army I find myself with models that steamroll the enemy with no thought or strategy on my part required.

Well, never mind I guess. Thinking about the state of the game just depresses me. Looking on the bright side, Custodes have very pretty models and I settled on a color scheme of white with golden bling and purple cloth. I might try the odd freehand on the few cloaks I'll have in the army. Should be fun to convert the plastic Contemptor I have to actually look good and fit with the bling overload of the infantry, too.

I think the Allarus Terminators have more potential than the other types of Terminators in terms of being viable, they have solid shooting and strategems to go along with it, the best CC of any Terminator, 2+/4++ with a 6 inch move and 4W so they're pretty durable. The biggest issue I can see with them on the tabletop is making the 9 inch charge when you deep strike. The Vexilla Teleport Homer strategem can help mitigate this by making the charge way easier to roll but the only problem is that you apparently can't use it the same turn a Vexilla Praetor deep strikes in.

All that comes at a price, which is historically the problem of Terminators.

I'm not convinced the deep strike vexilla is any good unless it miraculously allows it to deep strike and call in other Terminators in the same turn. I don't see Custodes having the kind of numbers to hold back Terminators for long, or the ability for the vexilla dude to survive long enough. I don't see how this is going to be practical. Especially when the alternative is to just get jetbikes with impressive fire power of their own, good close combat ability and way better mobility with comparable survivability for barely any more points. Or flood the table with barebones Custodians.

Supreme command detachment.

3x Biker Shield Captains + A vexila to buff your guard army. Spend CP to get relics on two of the captains.

Wulfey wrote:
Supreme command detachment.

3x Biker Shield Captains + A vexila to buff your guard army. Spend CP to get relics on two of the captains.

This.

I'll be using 3-5 bike captains, almost always taking the relic bike and eagle eye for +1 INV to two of them. Give one the FNP Warlord Trait and make the other the Victor of the Blood games and enjoy two Smashfickers.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Galas wrote:
its like GW has learned that 2++ are horrible. Good.

Well, unlike 7th, there are things like Mortal Wounds as well as spells and other things to negate/reduce inv. saves. There are a few 2++ in 8th Ed. (e.g. Harald Deathwolf) and thus far they haven't made that much of a splash, to be honest.

2++ wasn't actually problem without reroll. And in 8th ed 2++ is less of issue as it's not tough anyway. Ig infantry is tough. 2++ would almost certainly be soft like all high t, good save models

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Supreme command detachment.

3x Biker Shield Captains + A vexila to buff your guard army. Spend CP to get relics on two of the captains.

This.

I'll be using 3-5 bike captains, almost always taking the relic bike and eagle eye for +1 INV to two of them. Give one the FNP Warlord Trait and make the other the Victor of the Blood games and enjoy two Smashfickers.

The base bikes are like ... 90 points with bolters? Captains on bikes are ~ 160 for twice the wounds and probably 2 more attacks and relics and they can't be shot at until the guard screen is dead. They would play a lot like Celestine ... but there are 3 of them. I could see them working really well in ITC style missions where you need to move out and take stuff.

The basic bikes sound like a really bad deal. They are 90 points for T6, 4 wounds, 2+/4++. Their saves are good, but that is pretty flimsy compared to a T7, 3+, 11wound razorback. Or compared to a T6, 6W, 4+/6++ sydonian dragoon for 68 points. I can only ever see bikes as viable if they have the -1 to be hit vexila to protect them. Otherwise they are gonna die so fast to basic shooting. EDIT: and in a meta of dark reapers ... those bikes are just dogmeat. Every two 4++ you fail is a dead bike and the -1 won't save them. Better to just have guard bodies in the way.

EDIT: first draft based on the models I have access to.

CUSTODES supreme command
3x1 CaptBiker - 480
Vexila guy - 80

STYGIES spearhead
TPE - 47
3x1 Neutronager - 420

CADIA brigade
3x1 comp commander - 90
3x1 astropath - 90
3x1 flamer sentinel - 156
6x1 guards with mortar - 270
1x2 basilisk - 216
5x1 mortar team - 165

Put the vexila and HQs next to the mortar team herd. Put the astropaths out front to deny. Put the neutrons and basilisks and TPE near each other for repairs. Hope the bikercaptains kick some butt.

Just a quick question: do we know what kinds of dreads the Custodes have access to? Are they able to take things like the bog standard dreads, ven dreads, and Redemptor or are they stuck with only being able to take the ugly plastic Contemptor?

Wulfey wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Supreme command detachment.

3x Biker Shield Captains + A vexila to buff your guard army. Spend CP to get relics on two of the captains.

This.

I'll be using 3-5 bike captains, almost always taking the relic bike and eagle eye for +1 INV to two of them. Give one the FNP Warlord Trait and make the other the Victor of the Blood games and enjoy two Smashfickers.

The base bikes are like ... 90 points with bolters? Captains on bikes are ~ 160 for twice the wounds and probably 2 more attacks and relics and they can't be shot at until the guard screen is dead. They would play a lot like Celestine ... but there are 3 of them. I could see them working really well in ITC style missions where you need to move out and take stuff.

The basic bikes sound like a really bad deal. They are 90 points for T6, 4 wounds, 2+/4++. Their saves are good, but that is pretty flimsy compared to a T7, 3+, 11wound razorback. Or compared to a T6, 6W, 4+/6++ sydonian dragoon for 68 points. I can only ever see bikes as viable if they have the -1 to be hit vexila to protect them. Otherwise they are gonna die so fast to basic shooting. EDIT: and in a meta of dark reapers ... those bikes are just dogmeat. Every two 4++ you fail is a dead bike and the -1 won't save them. Better to just have guard bodies in the way.

Your same justification for Bikes being bad describes the entire Custodes range. They have the best toughness and saves out if the bunch, with more ranged attacks and equal CC attacks to the rest, for a negligible amount more than terminators.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Wulfey wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Supreme command detachment.

3x Biker Shield Captains + A vexila to buff your guard army. Spend CP to get relics on two of the captains.

This.

I'll be using 3-5 bike captains, almost always taking the relic bike and eagle eye for +1 INV to two of them. Give one the FNP Warlord Trait and make the other the Victor of the Blood games and enjoy two Smashfickers.

The base bikes are like ... 90 points with bolters? Captains on bikes are ~ 160 for twice the wounds and probably 2 more attacks and relics and they can't be shot at until the guard screen is dead. They would play a lot like Celestine ... but there are 3 of them. I could see them working really well in ITC style missions where you need to move out and take stuff.

The basic bikes sound like a really bad deal. They are 90 points for T6, 4 wounds, 2+/4++. Their saves are good, but that is pretty flimsy compared to a T7, 3+, 11wound razorback. Or compared to a T6, 6W, 4+/6++ sydonian dragoon for 68 points. I can only ever see bikes as viable if they have the -1 to be hit vexila to protect them. Otherwise they are gonna die so fast to basic shooting. EDIT: and in a meta of dark reapers ... those bikes are just dogmeat. Every two 4++ you fail is a dead bike and the -1 won't save them. Better to just have guard bodies in the way.

Your same justification for Bikes being bad describes the entire Custodes range. They have the best toughness and saves out if the bunch, with more ranged attacks and equal CC attacks to the rest, for a negligible amount more than terminators.

I think the bikes are the best of the range. 4 wounds is a big deal when there are so many 3 wounds per attack weapons out there. I plan on buying at least 3 bikes. The custodes on foot just aren't viable with dark reapers being a thing now. Just like how my dragoons are non-viable in the competitive scene due to dark reapers.

Just took a much closer look at the models today, man, those Allarus Terminators are pretty off, super long torso, short legs. Given the direction they have been taking lately with more artscales model, they are a bit of an eyesore for me...

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Just took a much closer look at the models today, man, those Allarus Terminators are pretty off, super long torso, short legs. Given the direction they have been taking lately with more artscales model, they are a bit of an eyesore for me...

Glad I'm not the only one who doesn't like them. Why do they keep showing terminators trying to do the splits?