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They blew their modeling load on the new Nagash model if you check the Fantasy thread, BTW. Thing looks massive. Like maybe stare a Wraithknight big.

I cannot fathom how much they'll ask for him/it.

Mixed feeling all around. Hoping they will make things better and more clear for the new edition. But pretty unhappy with the gutting of inquisition. If the codex was say $20($10 digital) I'd be OK with it, because it will mostly be nothing new and just a FAQ update. I know relics are a thing but they are not physicaly new pieces and just invisible upgrades players can model if they choose to. They are just a few extra words written in the book that won't even take a full page. Its doesn't feel like a NEW codex. For example; but not that it was the best codex ever but the new Chaos Space Marine Dex actually felt like a new book with new substance.

Well, I think a full GK army will hardly be competitive as they have no cheap point fillers such has Henchmen.
If you want a decent GK force, you will need an ally detachment from AM or a Marine army (Grey Hunters, vanilla Marines, or Dark Angels).

Just make a new GK rule only. If they win your opponent must play the allied force as they get silenced by the GK to leave no witnesses.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I think a full GK army will hardly be competitive as they have no cheap point fillers such has Henchmen.
If you want a decent GK force, you will need an ally detachment from AM or a Marine army (Grey Hunters, vanilla Marines, or Dark Angels).

See, that's the main issue here. They most likely won't be 'competitive' due to the removal of Inq. If people happen to be competitive or tournament players then GK won't be of much use to them.

On the other hand, I'm really looking forward to this release. I'm not bothered about tournaments and the like so for me, new rules, compatibility with 7th and cheaper units means I can plonk more actual GK down on the table and I'm very pleased about that. Termies being only 165 for a squad is great - I'll probably invest in another couple of boxes. And cheaper DKs means I'll probably buy another one of those too. Sure, I'll have a bit of a hybrid list, I won't win game after game but I'll enjoy playing a cool looking list and not have to watch people roll their eyes at me when I put down the new OP army on the table. I can't wait for the new codex.

 TheKbob wrote:
They blew their modeling load on the new Nagash model if you check the Fantasy thread, BTW. Thing looks massive. Like maybe stare a Wraithknight big.

I cannot fathom how much they'll ask for him/it.

Haha it is no way that big.
It's probably the same size as a a bone giant if that.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I think a full GK army will hardly be competitive as they have no cheap point fillers such has Henchmen.
If you want a decent GK force, you will need an ally detachment from AM or a Marine army (Grey Hunters, vanilla Marines, or Dark Angels).

See, that's the main issue here. They most likely won't be 'competitive' due to the removal of Inq. If people happen to be competitive or tournament players then GK won't be of much use to them.

On the other hand, I'm really looking forward to this release. I'm not bothered about tournaments and the like so for me, new rules, compatibility with 7th and cheaper units means I can plonk more actual GK down on the table and I'm very pleased about that. Termies being only 165 for a squad is great - I'll probably invest in another couple of boxes. And cheaper DKs means I'll probably buy another one of those too. Sure, I'll have a bit of a hybrid list, I won't win game after game but I'll enjoy playing a cool looking list and not have to watch people roll their eyes at me when I put down the new OP army on the table. I can't wait for the new codex.

Indeed, GK will not be super competitive in the near future but nowhere nearly useless.
For scoring purposes one could add a vanilla Librarian and two vanilla Marine units in transports.

It is pretty sucky to "have to pay extra to use models you already have" but isn't that pretty much what every edition change does?

Sure it is worse here for the GKs specifically are they don't seem to have gotten anything out of the deal just yet.

However, if it means access to Assassin's for other forces, well I can live with it (for transparency my entire GK WIP force was more or less moved into C:=][= any way so that is my bias.)

 TheKbob wrote:
Or use a sense of rationality to see taking 1, putting it into 3 parts, and tripling the price is asinine. Because it is. It's not about people being excited. It's people being excited about being taken while what I'm happy about is being ruined and being told "I was doing it wrong." And then further explanation that my meta only allows 2 sources because of the terrible way the game is written. So why don't you try to have some empathy. Because if this kind of crap continues, you won't be getting new releases from Games Workshop.

The Price increase is bad. Price increases are always disappointing. Removing most of the Inquisition and Assassins from the GK codex is not such a bad thing.

2/3 of the Inquisition elements were in the last GK book not because they fit with the army at all, but because there was nowhere else to put them.
Assassins started out as their own little detachment in 2nd, and then again in 3rd they got a booklet with assassin rules. Sisters had their own codex in 2nd, and Grey Knights were part of the big book in second. Then they decided to add the Inquisition to the game in third edition. Ordo Malleus was added to the Grey Knights, Ordo Hereticus to the Sisters, and they were goin to do Ordo Xenos and Deathwatch but never got to it. Additionally, instead of remaining separate, the assassins were lumped in to help fill out the Daemonhunters and Witchhunters lists somewhat (see Orbiral strikes as a HS choice to also fill out the list.
They lasted a while, until 5th edition. Sisters didn't have plans for a new book or models any time soon, so when GK got a new set of plastic models and kits, Ordo Hereticus was lumped into the GK book, and Ordo Xenos so they were not left out. Not because they fit the GK at all, but because they had nowhere else to go for updated rules. Thanks to how awesome the rules for Coteaz were, many K builds took advantage of extremely cheap henchmen troops to fill out the required slots, which was a valid build to make an Inq force, but they were replacing GK units in GK lists because they were so much more points efficient. See the problem with Cultists crowding out actual Chaos Marines in the CSM book as the default troop choice.

I will miss the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in the GK book. But Ordo Xenos and Hereticus never should have been there in the first place, and Assassins work better fluffwise and rules-wise as their own support detachment than part of a proper army. Same with the Inquisition really.

TLDR: Having to pay for Assassins and Inquisition rules separate from GK, bad. Inquisition and Assassin rules actually being separate entities from the GK book, good.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Or use a sense of rationality to see taking 1, putting it into 3 parts, and tripling the price is asinine. Because it is. It's not about people being excited. It's people being excited about being taken while what I'm happy about is being ruined and being told "I was doing it wrong." And then further explanation that my meta only allows 2 sources because of the terrible way the game is written. So why don't you try to have some empathy. Because if this kind of crap continues, you won't be getting new releases from Games Workshop.

The Price increase is bad. Price increases are always disappointing. Removing most of the Inquisition and Assassins from the GK codex is not such a bad thing.

2/3 of the Inquisition elements were in the last GK book not because they fit with the army at all, but because there was nowhere else to put them.
Assassins started out as their own little detachment in 2nd, and then again in 3rd they got a booklet with assassin rules. Sisters had their own codex in 2nd, and Grey Knights were part of the big book in second. Then they decided to add the Inquisition to the game in third edition. Ordo Malleus was added to the Grey Knights, Ordo Hereticus to the Sisters, and they were goin to do Ordo Xenos and Deathwatch but never got to it. Additionally, instead of remaining separate, the assassins were lumped in to help fill out the Daemonhunters and Witchhunters lists somewhat (see Orbiral strikes as a HS choice to also fill out the list.
They lasted a while, until 5th edition. Sisters didn't have plans for a new book or models any time soon, so when GK got a new set of plastic models and kits, Ordo Hereticus was lumped into the GK book, and Ordo Xenos so they were not left out. Not because they fit the GK at all, but because they had nowhere else to go for updated rules. Thanks to how awesome the rules for Coteaz were, many K builds took advantage of extremely cheap henchmen troops to fill out the required slots, which was a valid build to make an Inq force, but they were replacing GK units in GK lists because they were so much more points efficient. See the problem with Cultists crowding out actual Chaos Marines in the CSM book as the default troop choice.

I will miss the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in the GK book. But Ordo Xenos and Hereticus never should have been there in the first place, and Assassins work better fluffwise and rules-wise as their own support detachment than part of a proper army. Same with the Inquisition really.

TLDR: Having to pay for Assassins and Inquisition rules separate from GK, bad. Inquisition and Assassin rules actually being separate entities from the GK book, good.

Mhmm I agree completely; but why the HELL COULDN'T THEY JUST LEAVE IT IN THE CODEX? BOOM everyone wins; except GW moneywise. Dataslates for everyone else, incodex for old players.

 Vain wrote:
It is pretty sucky to "have to pay extra to use models you already have" but isn't that pretty much what every edition change does?

Sure it is worse here for the GKs specifically are they don't seem to have gotten anything out of the deal just yet.

However, if it means access to Assassin's for other forces, well I can live with it (for transparency my entire GK WIP force was more or less moved into C:=][= any way so that is my bias.)

There's a huge difference between buying a codex to still use the models you have versus having to buy several codexes/dataslates to be able to continue using those models.

It's a money grab... plain and simple.

Not getting any new models is just rubbing salt in the wound on top of that. Now imagine this hadn't been a little sidearmy of yours, but something you've worked on for over a decade and it's the second time GW starts messing bigtime with the composition of the army. I already wrote half an essay on that on p28 or something, so I'm not going to repeat it here... but it's pretty atrocious (same goes for AS players btw...)

yeah GW should have given GKs SOMETHING to salve the loss, it wouldn't have to be anything major eaither.

I mean GK players woulda been content with a storm talon added in or something I'm sure.

 Elmir wrote:

 Vain wrote:
It is pretty sucky to "have to pay extra to use models you already have" but isn't that pretty much what every edition change does?

Sure it is worse here for the GKs specifically are they don't seem to have gotten anything out of the deal just yet.

However, if it means access to Assassin's for other forces, well I can live with it (for transparency my entire GK WIP force was more or less moved into C:=][= any way so that is my bias.)

There's a huge difference between buying a codex to still use the models you have versus having to buy several codexes/dataslates to be able to continue using those models.

It's a money grab... plain and simple.

Not getting any new models is just rubbing salt in the wound on top of that. Now imagine this hadn't been a little sidearmy of yours, but something you've worked on for over a decade and it's the second time GW starts messing bigtime with the composition of the army. I already wrote half an essay on that on p28 or something, so I'm not going to repeat it here... but it's pretty atrocious (same goes for AS players btw...)

You can also see it the other way round. No new models mean no spending for an already existing GK army, just for the codex. This is a wallet friendly policy. Thank you GW.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

They lasted a while, until 5th edition. Sisters didn't have plans for a new book or models any time soon, so when GK got a new set of plastic models and kits, Ordo Hereticus was lumped into the GK book, and Ordo Xenos so they were not left out. Not because they fit the GK at all, but because they had nowhere else to go for updated rules. Thanks to how awesome the rules for Coteaz were, many K builds took advantage of extremely cheap henchmen troops to fill out the required slots, which was a valid build to make an Inq force, but they were replacing GK units in GK lists because they were so much more points efficient. See the problem with Cultists crowding out actual Chaos Marines in the CSM book as the default troop choice.

I will miss the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in the GK book. But Ordo Xenos and Hereticus never should have been there in the first place, and Assassins work better fluffwise and rules-wise as their own support detachment than part of a proper army. Same with the Inquisition really.

TLDR: Having to pay for Assassins and Inquisition rules separate from GK, bad. Inquisition and Assassin rules actually being separate entities from the GK book, good.

Ooooow there... you missed one point on coteaz ... When that book was released in 5th, he was the only way to keep using any inducted troops OR inquisitorial stormtroopers from your previous army. Don't forget that scrapping those options was already the first massacre they pulled on codex :daemonhunters in terms of amputating things from the list.

And while I don't hate the fact at all that many imperial armies get acces to assassins and inquisitors, I really do hate the way things have gone. Again, I just want to repeat this point....

In order for a veteran player to keep playing with all the models he's potentially had since day 1 that the inquisitorial armies were released (daemonhunters and witchhunters, all the entries were in one neat book) he'd now need:

Codex: Grey knights OR Codex adepta Sororitas
Codex: Astra militarum
Codex: inquisition
Codex: Space marines
Dataslates: Assassins

That's pretty awful when you think that used to be 1 book, right?

Just imagine what the reaction would be if they just cut ALL stormtroopers from Codex: Astra militarum and only gave you acces to them if you bought Codex: militarum tempestus. It would make sense from a fluff point of view, it would be awesome that every imperial army could acces stormtroopers now if wanted. And yet many IG would have their jimmies rustled if they had to buy both books just to continue with their models. Well, this is EXACTLY what happened to GK.

Just like they left the stormtroopers in codex: AM, they could have just as well kept the ordo malleus in the codex. Both are technically different organisations, but with incredibly close ties. Assassins only through dataslates is just fine, the other ordos through codex: Inquisition would be fine as well...

I'd not have minded if they kept the Ordos Malleus Inqusitors in, with some restrictions. namely no deamon swords or deamon hosts. the idea of Inqusitors who used those things fighting along side GKs is frankly, silly.

What I'd LOVE to see GW do (and they won't b ut it'd be great) is to do a ebook package deal. get Codex: GK, Codex: Inq and Dataslate Assasins for I dunno a package deal of 75ish bucks? it'd be a bit of a discount from what I can tell, and thus at least make life a little easier on GK players who DO need all 3 sources

You know what GW could have done which would have satisfied 99% of GK players, still allowed them to sell Assassins and Inquisition rules to loads of players, AND earned them a massive goodwill boost from the whole community?

Include a voucher with the first print run of the new GK 'dex that could be redeemed for free epub/mobi versions of the digital Inquisition 'dex and Assassins dataslate.

It's a self-limiting offer so it wouldn't impact their sales long-term, it would show they acknowledge the negative aspects of the change for existing players and value them enough to make a gesture to mitigate that, and the hardback books are so pricey they wouldn't have to worry about non-GK players buying the GK book to get "free" extras to use with other armies.

But of course, they would never do something like that, because their main motivation for these kinds of changes is to wring the maximum possible cash out of their ever-declining customer base, so they'd rather bet that enough GK players with hybrid forces will suck up the cost and buy all three to make up for those that will just walk away, than enact a policy that might have a small short-term cost but could help retain customers in the medium-term.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And not releasing models for a Codex is weird.

Codex: AS and Inq agree. :(

They're not real Codices.

Neither is Codex: Grey Knight, apparently.

 wuestenfux wrote:
This is a wallet friendly policy. Thank you GW.

Rex non potest peccare!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Neither is Codex: Grey Knight, apparently.

Nice try, but no.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd not have minded if they kept the Ordos Malleus Inqusitors in, with some restrictions. namely no deamon swords or deamon hosts. the idea of Inqusitors who used those things fighting along side GKs is frankly, silly.

What I'd LOVE to see GW do (and they won't b ut it'd be great) is to do a ebook package deal. get Codex: GK, Codex: Inq and Dataslate Assasins for I dunno a package deal of 75ish bucks? it'd be a bit of a discount from what I can tell, and thus at least make life a little easier on GK players who DO need all 3 sources

Why no Daemon Swords or Daemonhosts? Inquisitors can be radical and the GK don't care enough to kill him for using a Daemon Sword to fight Chaos. They are primarily Daemon hunters. Everything else is secondary. If the Inq started twitching and acting suspicious, the GK would of course slay him without question, and they would always keep an eye on him, but without a reason to stop the Inq using the stuff they won't.

The epub deal sounds exactly what I was thinking.

For all the people who are purely Inq, why you so mad? All you need is the Inq Codex? I get it if you need 2 sources (I do now) but only 1? What's the issue?

 Deadshot wrote:
For all the people who are purely Inq, why you so mad? All you need is the Inq Codex? I get it if you need 2 sources (I do now) but only 1? What's the issue?

They have to moan about something, whether it makes any sense or not is irrelevant.

 Deadshot wrote:
Why no Daemon Swords or Daemonhosts? Inquisitors can be radical and the GK don't care enough to kill him for using a Daemon Sword to fight Chaos.

In the previous codex, you couldn't have Grey Knights in the same force as a Radical Inquisitor.

I definitely think the Grey Knights would have a problem with using anything Daemonic in their presence.

It kind of dilutes their character to say that they are OK with it now and then. Silly GW.

 Deadshot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd not have minded if they kept the Ordos Malleus Inqusitors in, with some restrictions. namely no deamon swords or deamon hosts. the idea of Inqusitors who used those things fighting along side GKs is frankly, silly.

What I'd LOVE to see GW do (and they won't b ut it'd be great) is to do a ebook package deal. get Codex: GK, Codex: Inq and Dataslate Assasins for I dunno a package deal of 75ish bucks? it'd be a bit of a discount from what I can tell, and thus at least make life a little easier on GK players who DO need all 3 sources

Why no Daemon Swords or Daemonhosts? Inquisitors can be radical and the GK don't care enough to kill him for using a Daemon Sword to fight Chaos. They are primarily Daemon hunters. Everything else is secondary. If the Inq started twitching and acting suspicious, the GK would of course slay him without question, and they would always keep an eye on him, but without a reason to stop the Inq using the stuff they won't.

The epub deal sounds exactly what I was thinking.

For all the people who are purely Inq, why you so mad? All you need is the Inq Codex? I get it if you need 2 sources (I do now) but only 1? What's the issue?

Inquisition lists relied somewhat heavily on the psychic dice generated by the GK psychic pilots of Razorbacks. That and cheap Obj. Sec units. Now they get neither.

 Medium of Death wrote:
I definitely think the Grey Knights would have a problem with using anything Daemonic in their presence.

It kind of dilutes their character to say that they are OK with it now and then. Silly GW.

Crowe uses a daemonsword so...? The Grey Knights may be more pragmatic than you think, and this is ignoring crazy stupid fluff pieces like the Sisters of Battle blood bs.

I imagine as long as the Radical Inquisitor is focused on killing demons, the policy is to turn a blind eye to his fighting fire with fire tactics.

Lanlaorn wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
I definitely think the Grey Knights would have a problem with using anything Daemonic in their presence.

It kind of dilutes their character to say that they are OK with it now and then. Silly GW.

Crowe uses a daemonsword so...? The Grey Knights may be more pragmatic than you think, and this is ignoring crazy stupid fluff pieces like the Sisters of Battle blood bs.

I imagine as long as the Radical Inquisitor is focused on killing demons, the policy is to turn a blind eye to his fighting fire with fire tactics.

This is what I mean. The 5th Ed codex goes on and on about pragmatism. They'll do what's necessary. Even the SoB blood was necessary at the time.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Neither is Codex: Grey Knight, apparently.

Nice try, but no.

You can say no all you want, that will not bring new models .

Quickjager wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd not have minded if they kept the Ordos Malleus Inqusitors in, with some restrictions. namely no deamon swords or deamon hosts. the idea of Inqusitors who used those things fighting along side GKs is frankly, silly.

What I'd LOVE to see GW do (and they won't b ut it'd be great) is to do a ebook package deal. get Codex: GK, Codex: Inq and Dataslate Assasins for I dunno a package deal of 75ish bucks? it'd be a bit of a discount from what I can tell, and thus at least make life a little easier on GK players who DO need all 3 sources

Why no Daemon Swords or Daemonhosts? Inquisitors can be radical and the GK don't care enough to kill him for using a Daemon Sword to fight Chaos. They are primarily Daemon hunters. Everything else is secondary. If the Inq started twitching and acting suspicious, the GK would of course slay him without question, and they would always keep an eye on him, but without a reason to stop the Inq using the stuff they won't.

The epub deal sounds exactly what I was thinking.

For all the people who are purely Inq, why you so mad? All you need is the Inq Codex? I get it if you need 2 sources (I do now) but only 1? What's the issue?

Inquisition lists relied somewhat heavily on the psychic dice generated by the GK psychic pilots of Razorbacks. That and cheap Obj. Sec units. Now they get neither.

So its not really pure Inq lists, its Inq with GK Razorback spam. Case resolved.
Cheap OS units? Fair point. But tbf, that would have gone out the window with any Inq 7th Ed update.

In C:GK (5th Ed) Coteaz made them Troops because only troops score. C:I in 6th Ed allowed them to score through Coteaz, and because the Inq detachment needed no Troops, you could consider them troops anyway.
Now in 7th they can already score, and you still don't need them to be troops so no point in keeping it. The original purpose is fulfilled by the core rules.

Well people want the ever important Objective Secured

 Deadshot wrote:

Quickjager wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd not have minded if they kept the Ordos Malleus Inqusitors in, with some restrictions. namely no deamon swords or deamon hosts. the idea of Inqusitors who used those things fighting along side GKs is frankly, silly.

What I'd LOVE to see GW do (and they won't b ut it'd be great) is to do a ebook package deal. get Codex: GK, Codex: Inq and Dataslate Assasins for I dunno a package deal of 75ish bucks? it'd be a bit of a discount from what I can tell, and thus at least make life a little easier on GK players who DO need all 3 sources

Why no Daemon Swords or Daemonhosts? Inquisitors can be radical and the GK don't care enough to kill him for using a Daemon Sword to fight Chaos. They are primarily Daemon hunters. Everything else is secondary. If the Inq started twitching and acting suspicious, the GK would of course slay him without question, and they would always keep an eye on him, but without a reason to stop the Inq using the stuff they won't.

The epub deal sounds exactly what I was thinking.

For all the people who are purely Inq, why you so mad? All you need is the Inq Codex? I get it if you need 2 sources (I do now) but only 1? What's the issue?

Inquisition lists relied somewhat heavily on the psychic dice generated by the GK psychic pilots of Razorbacks. That and cheap Obj. Sec units. Now they get neither.

So its not really pure Inq lists, its Inq with GK Razorback spam. Case resolved.
Cheap OS units? Fair point. But tbf, that would have gone out the window with any Inq 7th Ed update.

In C:GK (5th Ed) Coteaz made them Troops because only troops score. C:I in 6th Ed allowed them to score through Coteaz, and because the Inq detachment needed no Troops, you could consider them troops anyway.
Now in 7th they can already score, and you still don't need them to be troops so no point in keeping it. The original purpose is fulfilled by the core rules.

That would be true if other parts of the core rules didn't change, now people are looking for obj. secured dedicated transports AND troops and the reason to make them obj. secured was for them to camp backfield and not worry TOO much about the turboing Jetbike, at the very least they would have to kill a vehicle and then a squad before the objective was null. Now they don't serve that purpose, beyond their codex not taking up any slots. Its basically a fluff book for those competitive players now.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Well people want the ever important Objective Secured

Indeed, which doesn't fit any Inquisitor bar Coteaz because no other Inquisitor would have the resources to pull together a full army like we see on the tabletop (hence why the Codex is 1-2 HQ and 0-3 Elites).
C:I is for fluffly players, which is why the competitive guys went with C:GK for the Razorbacks, HS, Troop and FA units when needed.