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HERO wrote:
Incubii vs. Harlequins

Well, Harlequins are mostly terrible, so this one seems easy.

Of course, Incubi didn't venture far enough away from their Craftworld roots either, since they are also overpriced.

Verdict: Neither.

If you're somehow forced to choose, Incubi deliver more offensive damage and are also tougher assuming non-AP 3 fire or units of power weapons.

Tough choices indeed HERO. I would say that the Ravager is clearly the better option over the bomber (not that the bomber doesn't have its own utility), but for general purpose use I would say the Ravager would be more effective, wheras the Voidraven is best used if you know what to expect from the enemy list.

The Jetbikes and the Scourges are similar in this manner. Which one is the better generalist option is very tough to say. I would lean towards the Scourges simply because they work out to be a bit cheaper IIRC, but the Reavers are a strong unit.

Harlequins and Incubi... if I had to pick one or ther other, Incubi, simply because they are a little more survivable IMO than the Harlequins, and a good bit more capable vs. MEQ. But the real problem is that the Elites section is filled with a lot of options, and I have to say that the trueborn raider team are looking like the best option.

I agree here, DL Ravagers are going to be the tech unit. The new Bomber things are nice and all, but they are a gimmic, nothing more.

I'm a LONG time DE player, and I will throw my hat into the ring on the debate on better units:

1. Ravager vs. Voidraven

Ravager hands down. Thats not to say I won't ever play the voidraven (especially in higher point games), but of all the years I've been playing the DE, the Ravager has never let me down. It consistently pops vehicles from the lowly Rhino to the Land Raider with nearly equal ease. I usually ran 2 with all diszes, and 1 all DLs. I LOVE my Ravagers because they were RELIABLE and CHEAP. The Voidraven does look nice though and comes with the nicer Str 9 guns just incase you face Necrons. Plus its missiles make the vehicle both anti-vehicle and anti-troop. But at its expense (with missiles) screams shoot me turn 1 and then we lose out on 200 points instead of a 145 pt FULLY UPGRADED reliable Ravager (which is just about the same cost as a naked Voidraven). Plus I tend to always miss one shot, so I would rather take 2 Str 8 lance shots over 1 Str 9 lance shot anyday.

2. Reavers vs. Scourges

A little tougher choice. I haven't seen the codex (just rumors) so I don't know the prices for them yet. But in all honesty it depends on the rest of your army makeup. Both have the unique capability of giving reliable anti-troop and anti-armor at the same time (with the fly-bys of the reavers armed with blasters or heatlances, and the scourges with blasters/heatlances and the rest of the squad with those nice poisoned 3 shot guns). With that said you have to run your scourges in larger squads to take advantage of some more anti-troop. Reavers do seem more survivable up UNTIL you want to shoot with them and so lose the MUCH needed 3+ cover save. To me Reavers look like an assault unit because if they stand and shoot they are vulnerable and so need the protection of being in an assault to last, and from what I heard they are not too bad at it either. Scourges at least come with a 4+ armor and their fire power is more Reliable then the Reavers and from what I heard they are cheaper. I would go with scourges if I had to choose a shooter unit. And I don't like Heat Lances. They are Str 6 lance melta weapons. Which means on average you will roll a 13 when within 9" (vs a 11.5 average with a blaster). But outside that they are near worthless against vehicles. While the Blaster (now with the same range) gives a reliable 4+ against all vehicles (since it has the lance rule). I honestly will give my guys blasters. Again, I've been playing for years and the lowly blaster doesn't often let me down, and with the extra range, makes me happy.

3. Incubi vs Harlies

The biggest thing I heard against the Incubi was their cost. What!? is what I think. They are 22 a piece and so CHEAPER than the current codex, And the master was an expensive upgrade in the current codex too. Again playing for years and all that, I love my Incubi and when in assault with the boss, they kill everything. And now they are deadlier! I mean a Master that lets them wound on 6s and get an extra attack AND preferred enemy vs. ICs, YES PLEASE! If I had that years ago... Harlies on the other hand are IMO 'ok'. Maybe its just me, but a 5+ inv save just doesn't say "wow" in my book. And they HAVE to have kisses to be effective, and they are not cheap either, and worst of all , my normal wyches kicked their butts. I really don't see them being added to this codex as anything more than sticking to fluff, adding extra 'color' to the codex, and maybe selling more models. Yes they can walk across the field pretty reliably, but we are in a Mech environment now, and they do not have a dedicated transport. You can give them someone elses on turn 1, but then you are dedicating 2 just to give an 'ok' unit a transport. Yes, the Incubi do not have Inv saves. But, they have never needed them before. You don't throw these guys at Nob squads/bikers; that is what DL are for. You throw them at troops and mid range assault units and absolutely slaughter them, and if you have the boss with you then you can feel confident on handling MCs and more specialized units. And the Elite choices are pretty nice now (they used to suck), I will probably go with the elite warriors to be honest, those guys are ace. But stick to the incubi when I want to assault, the no plasma grenades is weird though.

These are just my opinions though but thats what forums are for anyways.

I have to personally vouch for for Incubi. You're not going to get a better unit to wipe other troops/assault troops/elite troops off the field (Though SS Termies would definately be an issue). While I've always fielded a 9 man squad of them with my Archon, I can see taking only a 5 or 6 man squad to accomplish the same thing. Believe me, there's been very little that has stood up to an Incubi retinue bringing 27 PW attacks on the charge. And now they are 3 pts. cheaper, I'll definately field at least a squad and possibly 3 squads if the situation demands it.

I think the void raven will be a nice addition instead of a third ravager. Their really not that expensive but you wouldn't want to run more than 1 or possibly 2.

Luthon1234 wrote:I think the void raven will be a nice addition instead of a third ravager. Their really not that expensive but you wouldn't want to run more than 1 or possibly 2.

I'd seriously consider this. I've never run more than 2 Ravagers to begin with, so having another solid choice will mix it up a bit.

Very much agree that Incubi being cheaper and more effective makes them the choice over harlequins. And the void-raven is fine if you've already got some ravagers fielded.

Lexx wrote:Very much agree that Incubi being cheaper and more effective makes them the choice over harlequins. And the void-raven is fine if you've already got some ravagers fielded.

The fact that they get a marine save and fleet is disgusting also, I think their one of the few heavy armor save eldar that can do that.

Well there's Shrike...

asimo77 wrote:Well there's Shrike...

well not to be a jerk but I did say they were one of the few ELDAR, that had a 3+ save with fleet.

I find little appeal to the Voidraven at the moment, especially compared to the Ravager. Ravager with 3 lances outperforms the two S9 voidlances agaisnt vehicles at pretty much every level simply through volume of shots. The voidmine is potentially nice, but the missile upgrades are too expensive for what they do. If I want an alpha strike, I'll take a razorwing and if I want a consistent shooting threat, I'll take a Ravager.

Incubi over Harlequins, not even close. They had a chance to improve the Harlequins, they didn't, and once again, it's for fluff boys only.

Scourges will depend on the box set on whether I get them. If they are plastic and have 2 of every gun so that you can actually equip them properly, I can see multiple complementary roles for them. That aside, Reavers have several good roles: cheap suicide heat lances, pest units with fly-bys, ultrafast objective contestors. Scourges are probably best as portable firebases that you want to keep with assault weaponry, but I've yet to really figure a build that makes them better than Trueborn on a Venom except for Haywire Launcher shenanigans. Reavers seem to be better overall.

As far as voidravens go, sure they have nice guns but there's no way I'm dropping 200 points into something with 11-11-10 armour.

I think incubi v harlies comes down to personal taste but I prefer the incubi, they're cheaper, hardier, cooler looking, and have S4 power weapons with crazy klavex rules like preffered enemy and the extra hits thing.

Scourges v reavers is a tough choice, since both are pretty cool but I prefer dakka so scourges for me. They're also cheaper but if you give them some cool weapons they might cost the same as a reaver (which is 35 points right?) albeit a vanilla reaver.

Voidravens are no where near that expensive, unless you take a bunch of missiles and upgrades.

Oh my mistake then I thought I read somewhere it was 200 points.

They start just slightly less than 150 points, and come with 2 void lances and 1 void mine standard.

I wonder if people will bothe taking 3x talos anymore.

Luthon1234 wrote:

asimo77 wrote:Well there's Shrike...

well not to be a jerk but I did say they were one of the few ELDAR, that had a 3+ save with fleet.

Generally, that's the trade-off for fleet in the Eldar codex.

Striking Scorpions: 3+ save, no fleet.

Dark Reapers: 3+ save, no fleet.

Warp Spiders: 3+ save, no fleet.

In fact, the only ones that do have it are the HQs (Autarchs, Yriel and Phoenix Lords) and the various Exarchs.

It used to be that way in the Dark Eldar codex, anyone with a save too good didn't get fleet. So maybe this is a sign that when Eldar get redone (with awesome new bikes) more units will be getting fleet. OMG fleeting Scorpions!!!

Oshova

Oshova wrote:It used to be that way in the Dark Eldar codex, anyone with a save too good didn't get fleet. So maybe this is a sign that when Eldar get redone (with awesome new bikes) more units will be getting fleet. OMG fleeting Scorpions!!!

Oshova

Could be, it's just awesome that my incubi now make it into combat on second turn :p

Incubi over harlies.

I, personally will be taking both bikes AND scurge because bikes are the ultimate harassers and the scurge are actually survivable (add a heamy for FNP) and 4+ 6++... and a tonne of shots with great mobility...

Ravagers all the way. I might just take one of the fighters because of the missiles... they would provide nice anti horde when the enemy clumps up. But I must say my three ravagers will remain strong, and now for the same cost as one of the old ones with night shields, they will have both night shields AND a 5++ yay.

Incubi are a lot better in the new dex. Let's list the pos and neg:

Positive: They get fleet, power through pain, dropped 3pts, are now elites, and their sergaents + 'exarch powers' are now heaps better.
Neg: They lost tormentor helms.

Easily worth 3pts, I would say a semi-competetive unit.

Oshova wrote:OMG fleeting Scorpions!!!

Fleet Infiltrators are problematic.

I think a hidden gem with the incubi will be if a cronos can toss a couple pain tokens onto the unit before it goes into combat, a unit with S5 power weapons on the charge with 3 attacks each is...daunting. Granted, this would require the cronos killing something first, and the raider the incubi are in to stay alive long enough.

imho, 9 incubi + archon can take on almost anything in combat, outside storm shield spammed units.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Oshova wrote:OMG fleeting Scorpions!!!

Fleet Infiltrators are problematic.

Skrike comes into the frame again . . . Stupid Ravenguard . . .

Oshova

Whenever I play my friend's Ravenguard I have my noise marines just blast Linkin Park. His entire army is forced to begin wrist slitting and I always win.

Heh, I just noticed, Delfdars are the first 5th ed codex to re-introduce the "If you can't fit in it you can't take it" mentality to transports.

Fail!

What do you mean by that? Do the models riding have to actually be standing inside it?

asimo77 wrote:What do you mean by that? Do the models riding have to actually be standing inside it?

No, sorry! xD

What I mean is if the unit number is more than the transport capacity, you can't take it.

So while a 10 man SM Squad can buy a Razorback, an 11-20 Delfdar Warrior Squad cannot buy a Raider.

For those looking, it's part of the Dedicated Transports rule, Page 91.

Oh ok, I guess since the raider is the only transport I can think where you could place models on it, I thought it had some funky rules.